I’ve been spending this week running around in an electric car and, it’s fair to say, that an electric car offers a ton of advantages over a regular gas-powered car for many people. But you know what also offers a ton of advantages over a regular gas-powered car and works for basically everyone? A hybrid. And 2024 is going to be the year of the hybrid. Hear me out.
This morning your beloved Autopian website is going to be in full force at the LA Auto Show with, I think, the largest number of journalists on hand. Our stand is going to be amazing and we’re going to have interviews/podcasts with some of the biggest names in design and engineering out here.
We’ll also have news from our own stand, with an announcement from Dutch supercar company Zenvo that hits pretty close to home. Also, would you like an update on the UAW strike? Yeah, let’s do that. And, finally, uh, Nikola is in LA and will have some news to maybe counter the news that’s, uh, already out there.
Everything’s Coming Up Hybrid
The MotorTrend Car of the Year is, like Peter Pan, only as real as you want it to be. If you all clap if you believe then, yeah, it’s real. If you don’t care, then it, like most awards, is meaningless. Because I agree with MotorTrend and because it serves my rhetorical purposes, I’m going to lead off today’s The Morning Dump with the news that the 2024 Toyota Prius is the MotorTrend COTY. Way to go, Tinkerbell.
Here’s what MT said in its review:
The new 2024 Prius then is sign of the times. It’s a well-designed and largely well-engineered hatchback, with improved efficiency and performance over the outgoing car and comparable compacts. It’s a taste of that inevitable EV life without asking its drivers to meaningfully change their daily habits.
The transition to EVs isn’t quite as terrible as everyone has made it out to be, with both growth in infrastructure and sales, but high costs are definitely keeping consumers out of the market and there aren’t a lot of solutions to that in the short-term.
One solution to that in the short term? Getting people used to electrification through hybrids, which need smaller batteries and, generally, dramatically reduce the need for fossil fuels. Even better, plug-in hybrids need almost no fuel if they can be plugged in regularly at home and they also encourage people to build out more EV infrastructure.
Do you want more proof that 2024 is going to be the year of the hybrid? Well, look at the excellent Toyota Corolla Cross Hybrid or, perhaps, the fact that the best-selling car in America is going hybrid only with the 2025 Toyota Camry Hybrid.
Ok, ok, not enough for you?
Edmunds sent us over some data this week on hybrid market share and it’s a doozy.
Year-over-year, hybrid market share (6.5% to 11.4%) has increased much more significantly than EVs (6.0% to 7.5%)
Market share for EVs has almost doubled according to Edmunds data, compared to a much smaller increase for EVs. I think this shows both the strength of the hybrid market (and the number of choices) and the shakiness of the EV one right now.
You want to see some other crazy data from Edmunds? Yeah, yeah you do. In October of this year, the average transaction price for a new car was $47,753 according to their data. The average EV transacted at $59,064. The average gas-powered car transacted at $47,417. The average hybrid? Just $42,259.
And this isn’t because of discounting. The average incentive for an EV last month was $2,601, for a gas-powered car it was $1,031, but for hybrids it was only $394. Now, obviously part of this reason is that the most popular hybrid vehicles are economy-minded cars like the Prius, Civic, Accord, et cetera and not pickup trucks (though hybrid pickup trucks are coming). I also think that this product mix is why they’ll be successful.
It’s a challenging macroeconomic environment for both dealers and buyers and the lowly hybrid is the perfect eat-your-cake-and-have-it-too type vehicle, offering green credentials in attractive body styles with improved efficiency for only a small premium over a gas-powered car.
2024! Year of the hybrid! You heard it here first.
Zenvo Gets A US Dealer… Galpin
When we were at The Quail in Monterey this year one of the cars we decided to check out was the 1,850 horsepower Zenvo Aurora. We all dug the hyper hypercar, with its hybrid powertrain (see?!?) and its mechanically-flipping gauges:
They’re so satisfying.
But that was it, we thought. We checked out a cool hypercar. Had a nice conversation. Moved on.
So it was a fun surprise this week when we noticed there was a Zenvo display inside the Galpin Hall of Customs where the Autopian booth is located. Why is that? I’ll let today’s press release explain:
On the West Coast, Zenvo have partnered with Galpin Motors, the number 1 Ford dealer and one of the most famous motor groups in the world having been established in 1946. With a substantial showroom set up in LA where they also manage another 12 manufacturers including Porsche, Aston Martin and Lotus. Galpin Motors will provide unrivalled support for Zenvo customers on the West Coast.
Zenvo LA will be managed by President/CEO of Galpin Motors and President of Galpin Auto Sports, Beau Boeckmann, plus his elite sales team as the dealership’s only hypercar brand. Discussing Galpin and Zenvo’s new partnership, Beau commented: “When I first saw the Zenvo Aurora, I fell in love. It’s the most beautiful hypercar I’ve seen in a while. And when I learned about the technology, the bespoke V12 engine, and the unbelievable performance, I was hooked. We are incredibly excited to represent Zenvo for the West Coast!”
So I was talking to Beau yesterday as we set up the stand and he confirmed that this all came together after we did that video. Come by and see the cars at the show if you haven’t already, they look great. Also, if you’re a bespoke hypercar manufacturer you should definitely book a video with The Autopian. Good things happen.
The UAW Deals Will Probably Pass
For all the hand-wringing lately over the close votes at some UAW plants, it does seem like all three deals are going to pass.
As of this morning, Ford’s at 67% yes, Stellantis is at 67% yes, and GM is at a much tighter 54% yes.
Why has GM been lagging? There’s an entire story in the Detroit Free Press this morning that’s worth reading, but here’s what jumped out at me:
At Fort Wayne, UAW Local 2209 Shop Chairman Rich LeTourneau told the Free Press the reason for the rejection there was that traditional members — those hired before 2007 — wanted the bigger wage gains to come in the first two years of the agreement rather than waiting for the total 25% gain across 4.5 years.
They also wanted a bigger contribution to their pensions, LeTourneau said. The contract is offering a $5 gain to the pension multiplier. It is presently $54 so it would rise to $59. That means for someone who worked at GM for 30 years, their pension would rise from $1,620 a month to $1,770 a month. Some considered it too small of a gain, LeTourneau said.
For those members who are currently “in progression,” LeTourneau said they wanted the pension reinstated and retiree health care, neither of which happened in this contract.
This is how deals are made. They’re not equally good for everyone and this deal, in particular, seems to shade a bit more towards workers in parts warehouses.
Nikola Founder Looking To Get Probation
The opening of this year’s LA Auto Show will include a breakfast and keynote from Nikola, the troubled electric Semi truck maker. This comes as its founder, Trevor Milton, seeks probation following multiple guilty verdicts on wire and securities fraud stemming from statements he made about Nikola’s technology.
In a Tuesday night court filing, lawyers for Milton said he should get probation at his Nov. 28 sentencing, in part to care for his ailing wife.
The lawyers said there was “not a shred of evidence” that Milton had ill intent, and any misstatements resulted from his “deeply-held optimism and belief” in his Phoenix-based company.
[…]
The lawyers distinguished Holmes’ case by saying Theranos, which promised to run many medical tests on one blood drop from a finger prick, was not a “real company with real products,” and that Holmes’ lies put people at medical risk.
The old: We’re-not-as-bad-as-Elizabeth Holmes defense has to work, right?
The Big Question
We’re all out here at the LA Auto Show, what do you want to see?
>But you know what also offers a ton of advantages over a regular gas-powered car and works for basically everyone? A hybrid.
I’m really not sure a hybrid offers a ton of advantages over a regular gas-powered car. What are the advantages? Somewhat better fuel economy, sometimes, and less brake pad wear?
More than half of US car journeys are less than 5 miles. If you can do those trips in a hybrid, you will almost certainly burn fewer dinosaurs, emit fewer emissions, and save money.
If I can do those trips on all electric without running the engine then yes that’s a good thing for sure. But when folks are saying “hybrid all the things, hybrids are better” they’re talking about the new hybrid only Camry or Sienna, which can’t do that.
I guess I don’t understand non plug in hybrids, they seem like they were useless from the beginning. If I’m gonna drive a car with an electric motor, I want to be able to drive powered by electricity, but a non plug in hybrid is 100% powered by gasoline and that defeats the whole purpose.
You realize that non plug in hybrids use less fuel, right? That is the whole purpose.
They do use less fuel, but not as much as the EPA says, and there is zero improvement in highway fuel economy. The (often pretty minor) improvement in city fuel economy can often be mostly accounted for by different hybrid tires and driving style. I guess my point is that the improvement in fuel economy is usually pretty small, and could be more easily achieved with a smaller/lighter car or improved driving style.
This seems to me like it’s not worth the extra cost and complexity of a hybrid.
It’s a valid point for smaller cars, small sedans have been living in the mid-30 mpgs for years now. But look at the Ford Maverick, with the hybrid it’s matching those small cars, and still getting decent performance. The Jeep Wrangler PHEV gets near 30mpg for the first 100 miles or so when charged, a 4 door Wrangler, getting 30mpg is crazy.
Minor improvement in…city economy? Which vehicles are you thinking of here? Even in combined ratings in CR-V-sized vehicles is around 30% improvement in just the combined rating.
The “extra cost” is pretty much nil at this point, it’s not like even 10 years ago when a hybrid variant was several more. Even tires are accounted for now that you have ratings often broken out for different wheel sizes.
Sure, a Sienna hybrid “only” gets the same 35 mpg combined rating as a Corolla, but they’re quite different tools. And even the Corolla sees an almost 40% improvement in combined mileage in hybrid form.
Hybrids have major fuel economy gains in the city, and they will always have some advantage in highway driving since you will always be regen-ing on the off ramp. Furthermore, hybrids can be driven efficiently without changing driving styles much if at all, while doing the same on a gas only car requires much more effort and attention, which the average consumer is not willing to give.
My Ford Escape hybrid has the same OEM tires as the non-hybrid models, because OEMs are chasing MPG ratings on every trim level nowadays. I’ve never consistently gotten mileage lower than the EPA rating, and can often exceed it on trips on suburban roads. The price difference ranges from $-500 to $3000 depending on the trim level.
They run an Atkinson cycle, which is enabled by the electric motor compensating for less power from the gas engine, which *absolutely* results in better highway fuel economy out of a hybrid. A series hybrid may not be world’s better, but a traditional hybrid absolutely does
I’m sorry the electric motor cannot compensate for reduced power more than briefly in a non plug in hybrid. The average engine output is the same as the average energy usage by the car, always.
And Priuses only run Atkinson in low load situations anyways.
As a 2022 Camry Hybrid owner, I must disagree with you Sir.
I get 38 mpg (calculated at the pump) regularly on a tank. Per Toyota, the 2.5 in the current Camry Hybrid operates at 41% thermal efficiency, allowing it to return better highway mpg than it would otherwise, even without the electric motor contributing anything. This is why some hybrids (like the Camry Hybrid) can return better mpg on the highway as well as city.
Demonstrably false. My 38 mpg average is on wide, non-fuel-economy-oriented 245 width Continental DWS tires, traveling regularly up and down steep hills, sometimes in traffic, and at a consistent 75 mph on the freeway without traffic. I do not baby the throttle and will happily floor it to pass people. Find me a modern non-hybrid non-diesel 200+ hp sedan that can get 38 mpg in those conditions.
The EPA disagrees with your assessment.
The EPA rating for a non-Hybrid Camry is 28 city, 39 highway, 32 combined.
The Hybrid is 44 city, 47 highway, and 46 combined.
This is not a small improvement. Even modern compact cars with tiny engines, lighter weight, and CVTs can’t match that.
Exactly how much smaller/lighter do you think a car can get in order to gain 14 mpg combined? That’s not realistic.
FYI, here is the weight gain from the Hybrid drivetrain per Toyota’s own website:
Camry XSE non-Hybrid: 3425 lbs
Camry XSE Hybrid: 3580 lbs
A 155 lb difference. Woop-de-doo.
And? This isn’t the downside you believe it to be. When I accelerate to freeway speed, the electric motor provides power to supplement the more-efficient atkinson cycle engine, saving gas. When I cruise at 75 mph, the atkinson cycle engine more or less operates alone, saving gas compared to an otto cycle engine. When I coast or slow down, I feed energy back into the battery, which will be used to save gas again next time I accelerate again.
Just because you can’t drive a long distance on a non-plugin hybrid doesn’t make it a waste or not useful for saving gas.
My opinion is that people who say “they seem like they were useless from the beginning” (refering to non-plugin hybrids) don’t seem to know much about hybrids at all.
You guys don’t seem to know what Atkinson cycle means. A Toyota Atkinson cycle engine just means it uses the VVT to retard the intake valve timing a lot, decreasing the compression of the engine. That’s it. This is not something inherent to hybrids, and several non hybrid cars do this. Your Camry hybrid can instantly turn off the Atkinson and put the intake valve timing to normal when passing. Which it does.
“Find me a modern non-hybrid non-diesel 200+ hp sedan that can get 38 mpg in those conditions.”
Why are you dead set on driving a modern non-hybrid non-diesel 200+ hp sedan? You just asked for good fuel economy from a car that can’t have any of the usual strategies for increasing fuel economy…………….
“Exactly how much smaller/lighter do you think a car can get in order to gain 14 mpg combined? That’s not realistic.”
Plenty of very real cars are small and light enough to get 14mpg better than a Camry.
If this were true, why is the max horsepower of Toyota’s 2.5 liter atkinson cycle engine 176 hp, and not 202 hp like the otto cycle version of the same engine? Why not make the non-hybrid an atkinson cycle engine if there’s no downside to running it?
Because the context of this article is hybrids, and how hybrids are a good way to increase fuel economy and lower emissions without much downside. You responded that hybrids barely increase fuel economy, and that even if they do, its just because of atkinson cycle engines and fuel economy oriented tires blah blah. I countered your conjecture with a real life example and hard data and challenged you to provide a counterexample based on that hard data. I said a modern 200+ hp sedan because we want to compare apples to apples, I said modern because this article is about improving fuel economy in new cars, and I said non-diesel and non-hybrid because a) you said hybrid can’t improve fuel economy much anyway, and b) there are no new diesel-powered light-duty passenger cars on sale in the US.
The fact that you can’t provide an example of a modern sedan that can beat a modern hybrid for fuel economy is very telling.
Is that so? Give me one example. Show me the mythical modern car that is so much lighter and smaller than a Camry hybrid that it can get 14 mpg more on the EPA cycle than a Camry hybrid while making similar horsepower.
Since you don’t seem to like looking anything up, the Camry hybrid is rated 44 city and 47 highway, so your wondermobile will have to get 58 city and 61 highway without the benefit of any kind of electrification in order to be “small and light enough to get 14mpg better than a Camry.”
Go ahead, I’ll wait.
That sounds about right for the non hybrid Volvo D40 I rented in Sweden a few years ago. I remember seeing 3.9L/100km on the eco meter during highway driving which works out to 61 mpg. My manual calculations of fill up volume and distance were reasonably close to that too. Plenty of cozy room and power for a thousand mile road trip for 4 plus luggage.
Yes it was a diesel. No its not available in the US. I know. My only point is such mileage IS possible in a non hybrid. As it was I thought I could have made do with a bit less power so I think a gas engine could have hit those economy figures and had just enough power to keep me scooting along at the 130 kph speed limit with all my passengers and cargo.
Interesting. Too bad we couldn’t figure out the whole “clean diesel” thing in the US.
Well it was clean enough I didn’t smell any diesel. I liked it very much. If it met CARB and cost the same to operate as a gas car with the same mileage I’d be happy to own one here.
Edit: Now that I looked it up it was a V40, not a D40. Definitely a diesel though.
0-15 mph is when the Atkinson is at the most disadvantaged and that’s when a hybrid uses the electric motor to compensate most. Hybrids *absolutely* allow for broader use of Atkinson because you only really need assistance on acceleration. Atkinson does just fine at steady speed
I think the main thing you get from a regular hybrid is better efficiency, especially on the large vehicles people in the US like to drive. While PHEV or EV are better yet, convincing a lot of people to drive them is like pulling teeth. I think anyone saying hybrids are better for everyone is largely working under the assumption that selling any improvement is better than nothing.
They also get their biggest improvements with city driving, which is where a lot of people spend most of their driving time.
You apparently have a place to plug in your car.
It’s a good point to bring up!
Hybrids usually have higher MPG numbers in the city than on the freeway because it can use energy recovered from regen and the hybrid system can assist the engine in the situations where it consumes the most fuel (idle & initial acceleration)
Here’s the corolla’s stats:
If you do a lot of steady speed or freeway driving you won’t benefit from having a hybrid but if the majority if your driving is city, there’s a big upside
Honestly, I’m driving an 11-year-old car, but I think even on the highway, hybrids can benefit.
In my case, I’m driving a Prius v. 1.8l I4. That kind of efficient-but-slow Atkinson-cycle engine would hardly be viable on its own for an ICE car, but paired with the HV battery–I typically get 39-40 mpg even on the highway. I know it’s not unheard of, but I assume there’s not too many ICE cars that can hit that mark yet? And I would assume not many that are quite as large as the Prius v. This thing is deceptively roomy.
Actually that efficient-but-slow Atkinson engine does its Atkinson magic using VVT and can entirely turn off the Atkinson cycle and run like any other gas 1.8. Its totally viable in a gas only car, and I just read an old Motor trend article about using a custom ground cam to run Atkinson in a small block Chevy, with a target of 30mpg in a ’34 Chevy.
A new Corolla is rated for 41mpg highway, as is the 2012 Yaris that’s basically the gas version of your Prius. The hybrid system provides no benefit whatsoever in steady state cruising. There are several gas cars that routinely exceed 50mpg highway, some over four decades old now.
Talk about comparing apples to oranges. You can’t compare a Geo Metro to a modern sedan.
Name a modern car with modern safety systems and a modern amount of horsepower that can do 50 mpg on the highway without hybrid assistance or diesel power.
Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Beyond that valid criticism, I did not know the Atkinson cycle was a VVT thing that wasn’t always active. So I definitely got schooled on that.
But comparing the Yaris to my Prius v is way understating my cargo space. A Yaris hatchback has 16 cubic feet of space. The Prius v has 34; 40 with the back seats forward; and 67 with them down.
A new 2023 Corolla making 41 mpg highway doesn’t surprise me, but again, I’m seeing they have 13 cubic feet of storage space. I got a lot more than that for extremely similar fuel economy.
And just passenger space too, the Prius v is much roomier in every way. Plus the Yaris topped out at 38mpg highway with a manual under the old EPA test, and 36mpg with an auto (which most people would buy), so your V is still ~14% better on the highway. But of course you also said “even on the highway”, so sounds like that’s a combined figure, where the V is still 30% better than a Yaris auto was.
That 53mpg city on the Corolla hybrid is suspicious to me, because a Prius is also rated for 53mpg city. The Prius is pretty much the only car ever to be engineered from the ground up as a hybrid, and if that doesn’t provide any benefit over sticking batteries in a Corolla then they’re doing something wrong. Especially considering the Prius is significantly smaller and more aerodynamic, and I would suspect a little lighter.
The Corolla Hybrid gets similar mpg to the prius in the city, where aerodynamics doesn’t make much difference. At highway speeds, the aerodynamic difference makes itself known, and the Prius does significantly better.
So I guess the Honda Insight just never existed?
The Corolla LE Hybrid is almost identical in weight to the Prius LE, 17 pounds lighter in fact.
The overall length, width, and height are all within an inch of each other. Check Toyota’s website if you don’t believe me, I just did.
The only part of your post that was true was that the Prius is more aerodynamic than the Corolla Hybrid; no kidding. Maybe do some research next time.
And a smaller, lighter car doesn’t automatically equal an improvement in highway economy either among nonhybrids. Look across the Nissan sedan lineup, no turbos or hybrids, just the CVTs. The standard Altima is rated for 39mpg highway – same as a Sentra, and only 1 below a Versa.
If we do want to compare anecdotal apples and artichokes my father went from a Civic EPA rated 39mpg highway to a Niro hybrid with the big wheels rated 40 (vs. 46 for the standard wheels. He routinely hit the highway EPA figure on the Civic, but exceeds it on the Niro – usually 45 mpg, in a roomier, heavier car. And of course higher still in combined mileage.
41 mpg to 46 absolutely is a benefit. It’s more than 10%. On a 15 gal tank that’s a noticeable $5-$8 just for the highway driving.
A hybrid can offer several tons of advantages over a regular gas powered car if you’re measuring as the mass of carbon emissions.
the biggest question I have is how much the super low buck high fuel economy 1st gen Maverick affected average hybrid prices? and whether Ford made a profit on any of them? Year two they certainly increased the price dramatically, even though the labor was still inexpensive Mexican Labor, so no excuses really.
I see Pebble will be at the LA auto show, it would be interesting to see if they offer press drives of say a Ford Lightning with one attached to see how the assist feature increases Lightning Range over say the hills of Santa Monica or something. Or maybe see if the assist makes it seem lighter so say something like a 5000 lb tow rated Jeep could pull the huge by large unit.
Ford couldn’t meet the demand for the base Mav hybrid even before the pandemic. I’m sure they’re making money, but they’re losing a lot of potential sales
The price increases were likely more to do with supply chain issues
I have a sneaking feeling they could have met demand, but if they flooded the market then the artificial demand would wear off.
I want to see a tally of cars with extending sunvisors. It’s a feature I sorely miss in our newest car that retailed for over $30k 6 years ago(Bolt EV). Every car comes with a 50″ touchscreen now but apparently extending sunvisors is too much.
Am I the only one who thinks this whole hyper car thing has jumped the shark?
No, I don’t find them that interesting either. Even if I had the money, I wouldn’t spend in on one. The only one I really like is Pagani, because it’s more of an art piece than anything else.
I am a fan of the Noble M600, but you can’t get them in North America.
Maybe one of these days…
Agreed, I think when most cars started approaching 6 second and under 0-60 times is when I started losing interest. As a kid, the Diablo and F40 were awesome to me, then came the McLaren F1, then the Veyron(then Chiron), and they were all awesome.
But now all the different low volume “hypercars” just blend together to me. Tiny car, over 1,000 horsepower. I guess with Ferrari and Lamborghini building suvs somebody has to pick the slack, but they all seem kind of the same.
Are you saying this because Kevin Hart has his 2023 Ferrari at the Autoshow?
I’d like to see a couple paragraphs from all the Autopian Members that are there for press day.. A little about them and what their favorite cars at the show are.
I’ll also recommend that they gloat a bit that they are there and I’m not. But not too much.
I’d like to see a formal picture of the whole Autopian crew there, except everyone has their shirts on backwards as if it was normal.
News on any small hybrids and pickups, please.
Zenvo is Danish, not Dutch.
Danish vs Dutch is very confusing for Americans. Both are small European jurisdictions that begin with the letter “D” with their own languages. Here’s how I tell them apart:
Easy.
…or you can just ask The Merchant of Vienna.
I like to think of it as Danish are mostly harmless.
The Dutch…are a bit more complicated, if I’m being kind 🙂 Shit, I’m Dutch and French and I’m not sure which part of me hates the other more, lol. Even reading the Wiki entry for Dutch people is exhaustingly confusing.
Good for Toyota that they figured out how to make a car that gets both good fuel economy and offers a little excitement. Like going from imitation vanilla to Mexican vanilla extract.
I endorse this comparison. Well said.
Tahitian vanilla is where it’s at
Nah, Madagascar. You haven’t lived until you’ve tried it in a vanilla flavored dish.
I remember when Jalopnik said that the Prius wasn’t a real car. It only took 20 years for automotive journalists to praise it as one of the best cars. I owned one for 16 years and never had any clue as to what made it not-a-car. Anyway — it was the best thing going for people who wanted to reduce emissions and save on gas (and brake pads). That was 25 years ago. To say that the quarter-century-old tech is still the best thing to consider is idiotic. If EVs are expensive and their charging infrastructure is still lacking, that’s because legacy auto screwed the pooch and pimped H2s instead, back when they should have been well into an EV transition. If they’re panicking now because Chinese EVs and Tesla are eating their lunch — they made that bed. I can hardly agree with Hardigree (sorry) on his continual praise of hybrids. Him saying that the proof of their being the right thing is their sales numbers compared to EVs is fallacious logic. Nobody’s doubting that hybrids are selling better. If legacy auto had done the right thing decades back, their EVs would now be affordable to buyers and they’d be profiting on their sales.
There’s also a bit of lag before other manufactures, besides Tesla, can get US plants up and running to take full advantage of the tax credits for BEVs. This is delaying some purchasers, I’m one of them. Long term it will be good for the US (more domestic mfg), but short term it’s hurting sales. Not to mention the transition to the NACS (Tesla plug) standard, another reason I’m delaying a replacement car.
Prius won Motor Trend’s Car of the Year in 2004, so it was being praised almost 20 years ago.
Sad part is that hybrids have been around for more than 23 years and only now are being hailed as the big thing? Seems like a slow adoption, but if the Camry becomes electric only, or maybe even series hybrid, then what other choice do the majority of the basic reliable transpo crowd have?
Why every car isn’t a hybrid now is absurd. It’s old tech. The kinks have been worked out. You get instant torque and it’s quiet at low speeds. What’s not to like?
complicated drive train, added cost up front and then again cost of a battery after the warranty ends. For a new car and for those not used to keeping a car until they have paid it off, I can sort of see the point, especially plug in hybrids on normally fuel thirsty vehicles like Jeeps and pickups, but the added weight and potential costs long term can be concerning for even the early adopter crowd.
What does the age of the tech have to do with it?
Electric cars were invented in the early 1900’s when Henry Ford was messing around with the then-newfangled 4-stroke otto-cycle engine. Even the GM EV1 (the first viable modern electric car) went on sale in 1996, the Prius later going on sale in 1997, a year later. By this measure, hybrids are technically newer tech than electric cars are.
You are entitled to your own opinion about how good hybrid tech is for solving the world’s problems in the year 2023, but discounting it based primarily on it’s age is just silly.
Fair enough. Better phrasing would be: to say that a more complicated dual drivetrain that was anticipated to be superseded over a decade ago by an option that is more efficient and far less polluting is foolhardy.
Yeah, but Hardigree isn’t saying that hybrids are superior to electric cars, just that they are currently the superior solution if the alternative is your average Joe buying more gas-powered cars due to price, charging, and range concerns.
Full electrification is the “Holy Grail,” but for those who can’t afford it or don’t want it yet, hybrids are often a major improvement in efficiency and emissions without almost any of the downsides that keep people from buying electric cars.
I want details on the new Prelude – powertrain, interior, everything.
NPR was reporting on the UAW contracts that they were getting more of the vote among the skilled tradespeople than regular line workers.
So, it’ll be carried by the Electrical College?
I was kind of surprised that the Prius lives on (especially in the USA) since almost everything else in the Toyota line has been hybridized. But here it is, at a price point between the Corolla hybrid and the Camry hybrid. I find it surprising, since most Americans who want passenger cars seem to prefer those with a trunk.
It certainly sits in a strange place in Toyota’s line-up, for me personally I’d just go for the cheaper Corolla (if I was shopping), but I can also see people just as easily moving up to the Camry for more space and only a little more money. It, being the Prius, seems to sit in a place were it will make sales only on legacy buyers and those who prefer the admittedly good styling. But what do I know, Toyota has certainly done enough research to believe the Prius will make them money.
Right, some markets have dropped the Prius entirely. It almost seems like the Prius and new Camry are going to be priced atop one another. The Prius sits between the current hybrid and nonhybrid Camrys in price, and while Toyota could just price the new Camry at current hybrid pricing, that seems like a bad move. It would be ~10% jump and Toyota doesn’t really make jumps that large on new Camry intros. That would also put it over $30k and above the base Accord LX, which while a nonhybrid, won’t help either.
The Prius serves a bit as a halo car for the hybrid tech, but I’m not sure who would choose it over an equivalent Camry hybrid. A next-gen Corolla hybrid with newer hybrid tech almost seems sure to make the Prius redundant.
Even though the Camry is not huge, the Prius is even better sized for urban drivers. The Corolla is indeed a better comparison and if they added a hatch and add a more premium interior, it would make the Prius redundant.
True, and other markets get the Corolla with the same newer powertrain as the Prius, so it seems like that’s bound to happen in the next model cycle.
I would choose it over a Camry hybrid because I like liftbacks. But I’m in the minority by a wide margin.
Same here, most midsize sedans are more car than I need or should I say, their use isn’t that useful for me personally; I want cargo space more than people space. Although a couple things of the new Camry might make me lean that way if I were a shopper, like extra power (probably a wash/same power to weight ratio since the Camry is larger), and an opening moonroof (Prius gives you a fixed glass panel).
Or I’d just go for the upcoming Civic hybrid hatch which could split the difference between them pretty nicely.
It’s most likely a halo car for them. It’s got brand. And honestly, it’s the only Toyota, with the possible exception of the GR86 that I would consider buying. If they got rid of the goofy unergonomic instrument cluster and childish c-pillar rear door handle, I could see myself waltzing into their showroom for a PHEV version quite quickly.
Too much brand equity in the Prius name for Toyota to drop it.
I am more surprised they did not lift it 2 inches, raise the hatch a bit more and call it a Prius Cross.
Shhhhh.
The Corolla Hybrid and Prius are very similar both dimensionally and in weight, but the Prius gets 10 more mpg on the highway (because of its superior aerodynamics) even while making 58 more hp for only $3k more.
The Camry Hybrid is larger, heavier, more expensive, and less fuel efficient than the Prius.
For some people, the Prius is the best of all worlds.
Additionally, since it was built from the ground-up as a hybrid, I’m guessing Toyota has engineered the space into it to accomodate the plug-in hybrid batteries better; doing the same in the Corolla or Camry would excessively compromise trunk space I think, which is why we haven’t seen plug-in hybrid Camrys or Corollas.
We should have been rocking nearly complete hybrid adoption almost a decade ago, but the moronic exemption of crossovers from the more stringent passenger vehicle class efficiency requirement scuttled that hard.
At this point the only reasons to go non-hybrid are to save a few grand or if you want one last manual transmission (MT/hybrid is doable, Honda had some in the ’00s/early ’10s, but not on the market now).
Crossovers didn’t exist when the car/light truck distinction was written in, and regulatory capture, not stupidity, is keeping it from being changed.
There never should have been a distinction in the first place, or footprint rules, because honetly the end results weren’t exactly that hard to draw a straight line to, even before the CAFE changes
Well, when CAFE was first created, pickup trucks, vans, and the small handful of SUVs that existed (Bronco, Scout, Suburban, etc) were mainly sold to farmers, ranchers, construction workers, and trades people, and were rarely used as everyday family transportation (some people did, but they were sort of unusual), and it was felt that those vehicles needed bigger, thirstier engines simply to do their jobs of hauling and towing, so it wasn’t fair to hold them to the same standards as normal passenger cars, which could still do their jobs properly with smaller, more efficient engines. And since light trucks were a relatively small part of the market, it didn’t seem like a big deal to exempt them from the tougher standards.
There was some logic behind why it was done that way in the 1970s – might have been flawed logic, and the rationale might have become completely obsolete since then, but you can understand why it was done that way at the time.
Long overdue to just put all light vehicles under the same fuel economy standards though, however, fuel economy regulations of any sort are going to be completely irrelevant in about 11 years when everything switches to pure electric anyway.
Yeah but the car/light truck distinction was stupid in 1973 when it was written. It’s just gotten a lot stupider in the last 50 years.
This is pretty true, and in a world where Hyundai discontinues a $27,000 60mpg hybrid due to lack of consumer interest, while average transaction prices for non-hybrid ICE vehicles were surging past $40,000, the cost argument doesn’t really hold sway anymore, either. Clearly automakers have figured out how to build hybrids at all sorts of price points by now, so there’s no reason to not just do every internal combustion car that way
I appreciate this take
Woulda happened if hybrid tech had been properly marketed as improving mileage, performance and reliability. Instead those knuckleheads at Toyota spent twenty years making the Prius suck every bit of joy out of driving in order to capture the last percent of fuel savings, and ruined the average buyer’s perception of hybrids. Nice to see they finally figured out they were the problem.
Said it before and will say it until people start remembering: The current state of emissions laws makes anything not hybrid almost illegal. American size/weight/power cars can’t run clean enough while warming up their catalysts fast enough to pass without help from a high voltage power source. If you want a vehicle without one, buy it now.
What are the downsides of hybrids that people are looking to escape?
To new car buyers, not much these days, unless you’re really interested in having a manual transmission and/or very lightweight car. Or if you’re really interested in being able to fix your car 15-20 years from now with cheap, easily available parts.
I’ve never bought a new car, despite being in the new car development business (combination of having a lot of access to development cars and really loving the no car payment lifestyle, which can really save you a TON of money when you have the tools and skills to make a grenaded gearbox a $600 problem). When shopping used cars, I don’t really consider hybrids both because I like driving with 3 pedals and because a couple hundred bucks a year fuel savings isn’t worth the liability of the high voltage system to me
That’s fair, thanks for taking the time to answer.
I’m all gung-ho on the switch to HEV, PHEV, and BEV to get away from fossil fuels. But I just bought a new Golf GTI because it was going to be the last model year with a manual and ohmygod I panicked! I don’t drive all that much so the impacts on fuel costs and carbon footprint are pretty minimal.
I feel you on the high voltage risk. It’s real. Frankly, I don’t know the ICE v. HEV risk comparison but … yeah, a skateboard battery pack is a lot of flammable material.
That’s not really the high voltage liability I was referring to, though there’s kind of a big question mark over what that risk is going to look like when the cars and their batteries get really old, and that has me somewhat concerned – What kind of fireworks are we going to see when someone tries to DC fast charge a 20-30 year old car? If you have an old car an need a new brake caliper or control arm bushing, as long as it’s a reasonably high-volume model there will be several suppliers making parts for you and they’ll be less than $100. If you need a new battery or power electronics module and the OEM has terminated support, your car is likely now a parts car. MAYBE you can find a used power electronics module and it will work without special configuration tools. MAYBE someone will be rebuilding packs. MAYBE they’ll know what they’re doing. Maybe your insurance company will cover the fire that burns your house down.
That said, the risk of fires in hybrids and EVs has been pretty low so far, despite lots of breathless media coverage. Once the fire happens, it’s really bad news, but they don’t happen all that much now. In 20 years when the cells all have dendrites pressing against the separator membranes, all the splash and heat shields have rusted away or fallen off, and loads of cheap aftermarket parts have been installed? I guess we’ll find out.
Don’t beat yourself up over not buying the cleanest possible car. Despite the disproportionate attention for the last few years, your personal transportation accounts for a small fraction of your carbon footprint. If you are an American, probably ~15%. If you are a globally average person (no one is), it’s 6%. If you really want to make a cost effective impact, buy less things, repair what you can, when you can, and try to figure out what you can electrify without batteries. All those things will save carbon and money.
I think LFP batteries will replace Li-Ion batteries as they can be charged to 100% without harm, although they are less energy dense.
LFP batteries don’t have the thermal runaway issues so they should seriously reduce the number of EV fires, which is already seriously low.
Expect to see more, but don’t expect them to replace denser chemistries until the reviews stop mentioning range numbers because no one cares.
It’ll be more than a few years if ever the range numbers won’t be mentioned if only to keep people thinking about it.
There are not many downsides to a hybrid vs most other 2024 model year cars. It’s just 2024 model year cars in general have a whole lot of downsides.
The left/right culture war stigma that attached itself to the Prius in the 2000s and still hangs around? Other than that, I’ve got nothing
In the old days it was:
In 2023, some people still think that hybrids are just for tree-huggers or something, and some still worry about battery degredation, but other than that there isn’t really much of a disadvantage for modern hybrids at all.
The only one I can think of is this: Toyota makes the best hybrids and they’re so in demand it’s very difficult to find one at MSRP.
Ha! The most accurate response.
My family will be shopping for a new family hauler in the next year or two, and we’ve been waiting for a PHEV that can fit everyone to materialize at a reasonable price (and is not a Stellantis product). This gives me hope that the proliferation of hybrid tech will yield positive results when it comes time to buy.
It’s frustrating that the Pacifica is the only PHEV minivan on the market. I can’t believe Honda hasn’t released a PHEV Odyssey, they would print money! Considering they just launched a new Pilot without even a hybrid option, I gave up hope. Maybe we’ll get a unavailable Sienna Prime to match the unavailable Sienna hybrid.
This is why we are waiting a year or two, hoping Honda or Toyota are working on a PHEV three row…anything, really. We love our current Odyssey, but it is getting old and well used, and while we could move into something like a Highlander, the price for those is getting quite unreasonable.
You could go with the Mazda CX-90 PHEV. The only downside I see is that for a family hauler, it is still too small. I really wish Mazda would make full scale cars, not 7/8 versions. At 6’4″ with a still growing (will likely be tall) family, just hard to lose space compared to the current Atlas that is the larger car in the family at the moment.
I like the CX-90, but it is, per my family, too small. My vehicle is already in that size class, and while we don’t always need to extra space the Odyssey provides, we do on a frequent enough basis that going down in size has been deemed unacceptable. The Mazda does look nice though.
This was us the past year. The state of family sized+efficient options is GRIM. The hybrid Sienna is unobtanium. Mitsubishi has the PHEV Outlander, but Mitsubishi. We had to really think creatively to find something that worked.
Yes to the amazement of many on various forums and Reddit, Toyota (the largest automaker in the world and the one that revolutionized industrial processes everywhere) actually had their finger on the pulse the whole time when it came to electrification. They’re rolling out hybrids across the lineup that will absolutely print money.
People complained about Akio Toyoda’s victory lap earlier this year as sentiment began to swing against full EVs but who can blame him after so many (including many in the media) essentially said he was an idiot that would cause the downfall of his company.
Motor Trend’s COTY is one of the biggest jokes in automotive journalism. Almost every year it goes to whatever they think is most environmentally friendly and their reviews of all things electrified are so ridiculously rosy they might as well be ads. I don’t necessarily think it makes what they’re saying totally invalid or anything but it’s been a long time since they’ve been an enthusiast publication of any sort. They basically exist so regular consumers/NPCs can get quick summaries of commuter cars.
Alright with that out of the way I say bring on the hybrids. There’s no good reason whatsoever why most commuter cars weren’t converted to hybrids across the board a decade ago. It’s an easy, well sorted solution to reducing emissions and fossil fuel consumption that requires essentially no compromises at all. I’m glad the Accord/Camry are now hybrid only and I hope it’s just the beginning.
Hybrid all the things. Do it. DO IT NOWWWWW.
They basically exist so
regular consumers/NPCs can get quick summaries of commuter cars.mediocre writers can go on all-expenses paid trips to write those glowing reviews.And you can’t underestimate the important of getting “clout”
The arrangement works out perfectly well for everyone except the prospective car buyer looking for honesty.
They are just ads at this point
hybrids are absolutely the way to go right now for the normal person, my family alone have been extremely hesitant on full EVs the entire time and yet they are completely on board with hybrids.
if the car I’d like to replace my almost 20yr old gas car came in a hybrid version, I’d get it.
there is just too much confusion, lack of consistency and education for the every day person to wrap their head around a BEV, even before you get into the expenses.
Let me try to help you with your BEV education
BEV’s cost more to buy (unless there’s huge rebates Lexuz RZ $15k rebate anyone) but waay less to own and operate.
Depending on where YOU live, where YOU would charge and what / how YOU drive, they may be great.
It’s really down to the individual use case. One day we may have an EV for every situation, we don’t now, but if if does fit within your use case, they are a great option.
oh, I know how it works, I’m not talking about me not being educated, im talking about the normal person not on a site like this. lol
Apologies, I forget we are not everyday people.
I still know car enthusiasts who don’t like EVs because they think you have to charge it for 3 hours at each stop
> there is just too much confusion
I can’t get no relief
I think most of us are on-board with the idea that hybrids are the way to go. We’re hearing you already. 🙂
The crossover that I didn’t expect, The Autopian and Zenvo. Who is going to test drive it? Have fun at the LA show!
Jason Drives
Stepping out of my TDI next year. I was already thinking hybrid, so this is great news for my options.
Stepping out or running away? 🙂
-fellow TDI owner who would like to do the latter…
Mine has been good to me, so I’m keeping it in the family. I’m just ready for something new and my kids could use a solid car that gets good mileage.
Send it to Jason.
Go look at the UK Toyota lineup and take note of how many non-hybrid cars (not panel vans or pickups) are in the lineup.
It’s the Aygo (smaller than a Yaris), the RAV4, the GR 86 and the Supra.
Everything else is a hybrid, or a hybrid version. Even for the above, of course there’s RAV4 Hybrids, as the panel vans. Toyota is really just doing in the US what they’re doing in other markets – hybrid all the things.
Myself there. I decided the expense was too much and had a friend announcing his campaign for county prosecutor. Well, I made some extra money and his campaign announcement was actually only a small portion of what turned out to be a normal county Dems meeting last night, so I chose very incorrectly.
I hope it’s great for everyone there and I trust you all to find the most interesting things to tell us about!
I think the UAW deal meets the requirement for it to be a reasonable compromise. Everybody is walking away somewhat unhappy.