I love a bit of banter between automotive executives, as long as things stay between the lines. With Elon Musk, you can never guarantee that, but with Ford, you definitely can. The Blue Oval rarely oversteps boundaries when it comes to PR, but it is still much more aggressive than, say, General Motors or Volkswagen, specifically because it’s never afraid to point out where its products beat the competition. Take this latest tweet from CEO Jim Farley showing the Ford F-150 Lightning easily climbing up a hill that made a Tesla Cybertruck sweat. It’s a fair tweet, but let’s get one thing straight: The Tesla Cybertruck is almost certainly going to wipe the floor with the Ford F-150 Lightning off-road, and Elon will get the last laugh. Allow me — someone who isn’t at all a Tesla fanboy — to explain why.
Video of a Tesla Cybertruck struggling to get up a dirt grade in a California off-road park has been circulating the internet recently. Here’s a look:
Ford CEO Jim Farley decided shortly thereafter to post this video of Ford’s completed, actually-on-sale electric pickup truck coasting up that same hill with ease:
F-150 Lightning does it all. 👍 pic.twitter.com/uCMUSxUIpj
— Jim Farley (@jimfarley98) November 15, 2023
It’s a totally fair tweet, and fun, in a way. But let’s be clear: The Cybertruck is going to kick the Ford F-150 Lightning’s butt off-road, and this is coming from me, someone who just wrote an article titled “The Tesla Cybertruck Is Not Going To Be ‘The Best Off-Road Vehicle’ And I Didn’t Need This New Off-Road Footage To Tell You That.”
In that article I actually checked some of the folks who seem to think the Cybertruck is going to be the best off-road vehicle out there, when the reality is that: It will not, if only by virtue of simple geometric limitations. And that brings me to the Lightning.
When I reviewed the truck back in May of 2022, I had positive things to say about the vehicle’s traction control system. The truck seemed more than able to get power to the ground despite some wheels lifting off terra firma due to limited articulation. Here’s what I had to say in The Autopian’s first ever car review, which incidentally has been cited as the longest car review ever written:
I took the Lightning off-road on a fairly mild course in San Antonio, and had a chance to climb up some hills and bomb through some mud pits. The truck did very well. The standard locking rear differential — activated with a press of a button on the touchscreen — mechanically connects the two rear tires together, and provides a significant traction advantage. Up front is an open differential, though a brake-based traction control system (often called a Brake Lock Differential) does a decent job apportioning power to the wheel with grip.
A locking rear diff and a brake-based traction control system — both relatively simple, tried-and-true off-road traction control systems — got the job done fine, whereas the Tesla in that viral video seems to still need some calibration to its traction control system to get started up that grade without struggling.
And that’s the thing: The video shows a prototype Tesla Cybertruck. It won’t take much to vastly improve that traction control system to better get the motors’ power down to the ground to propel the vehicle forward. That’s just software. Is it going to be as good as a mechanical locker? Maybe not! Or maybe Tesla will actually offer a locker for the two wheels on the same axle — regardless, even if the Ford’s traction control system is better than the Tesla’s, torque transfer is only a small part of the off-road equation. The biggest slice of the off-road pie is all about geometry, and in that area, the Cybertruck is probably going to demolish the F-150 Lightning.
Here’s what I had to say about the F-150 Lightning’s off-road geometry:
The ground clearance wasn’t too bad, but that low-slung battery, along with the long wheelbase, meant that battery subframe rubbed while I was off-road. I anticipate breakover angle being the biggest limitations to the truck’s capabilities, which again, are more than adequate [for a non off-road pickup truck].
Really, the F-150 Lightning is a far-from-optimized EV pickup truck, and I bet Ford itself would admit that behind closed doors. It’s the right truck for 2023 because it was first to market and because it’s not such a huge departure from a gasoline F-150 so as to scare away truck buyers skeptical about EVs (and it’s well executed!). But it’s probably not the right truck for, say, 2026..
I anticipate Ford’s next full-size EV pickup having a better-integrated battery that won’t hang far below the rockers, and I bet it will have air suspension. Without air suspension, you’re basically stuck with a dilemma: Do you jack up the ride height to improve ground clearance as well as approach/breakover/departure angles, but deal with the associated reduction of range? Or do you keep the ride height low in order to reduce road-loads and thus keep the range high, and just deal with the off-road sacrifices?
Tesla’s Cybertruck, like the many air-suspension vehicles out there — won’t have to make this compromise. On the highway, the truck will ride low, and remain relatively aerodynamically efficient. Off-road, though, the suspension can crank up the ride height to improve off-road geometry, which is — again — the single most important attribute when it comes to determining off-road capability.
To be clear, the Cybertruck’s geometry — even at max ride height — isn’t going to be amazing, simply by virtue of it being a pickup that needs four doors and a bed, but there’s no way it’ll be as bad as the F-150 Lightning’s, so when the time comes for a head-to-head, I have no doubt that the Lightning will be left in the dust. But for now, while Tesla is still working on the Cybertruck, it’s Jim Farley — who runs a car company that sells an EV pickup truck that you can buy today at a dealership — who fairly gets to have a bit of fun on Twitter.
Meanwhile, no one will be able to get into the back seat of the Cybertruck or sit there, and the bed can barely hold a mountain bike, let alone any gear, so it will automatically have less weight to haul around…by design!
This seems to be a penis measuring contest.
I can’t even…believe that ugly cyberjunk POS is even real
It’s only real when you can walk into a Tesla dealer and plunk down your 40k and drive off with one
40k? There’s no way it’s going to be less than 80k.
That’s what Elon Must claimed that it would cost when it was introduced way back in 2019. Are you suggesting that he was being disingenuous?
Ah, I see that the joke went right over my head. Carry on!
Not my 40K…even if someone paid that for me, would still drive it straight off a cliff for fun
As long as Gina Davis is in the passenger seat.
Has anyone heard a peep about Ford’s T3 project lately? Because if comparing Yesterday’s EV Truck (Lightning, which is a F-150 disassembled and reassembled with a battery) vs The Truck of the FUTURE is a thing of discussion, perhaps we should start speculating about what Ford has got in the works. Being as Ford’s next generation EV truck will be out in 2025-26, and Cybertruck production won’t ramp up very fast.
My thoughts exactly. FSD, a software update, has been 10 years in the making? Not apple to apples but at least apples to pears. Compare the released Cyber truck with the Lightning version available at that time. Otherwise just compare it to a flying car.
So unrelated but not, my coworkers wife hit a moose (yes, a moose!) with their lightning like a week ago. She slowed down enough to bump the moose forwards instead of over, but we were all really impressed with how well it held up. The groceries in the frunk were fine and it was still able to open and shut, though crooked. I’m really impressed by it.
Also, Leif Johnson Ford in Austin worked with TSW to build a lightning raptor and it is MEAN.
David: Don’t I remember your writing, “…the Lightning can’t do truck things…” in a test when examining its range towing things trucks tow, like bass boats and camper trailers?
Range being the limiting factor is something all EV trucks will have to contend with. More weight requires more power. However, in a gas or diesel, range reduces significantly as well with a trailer out back. It’s just that you can quickly refill a fuel tank, while it takes more time to charge an EV. My take is that it can do truck things, but range anxiety becomes an increasing factor. Luckily, they made drugs to help reduce that anxiety.
Ford has the department and product line to produce a Lightning version of the Raptor, which would then be quite good off road. But I bet they would pick a cringe worthy name and I would have to swallow back down some vomit.
Only thing I can think of is Lighting Strike—surely someone can do better?
Yeah, I called y’all Shirley
Leif Johnson ford and TSW built one. Apparently the ucas, Lcas, and shocks for the front were bolt in. They made custom half shafts and built a custom rear end
“Please click the link below to get into the comments and tell us why David is wrong about something.”
Game on.
You said the Cybertruck issues were “just software”.
Lots of things are “just software” these days like ABS and stability/traction control. But the difference between a well calibrated system and a poorly calibrated system is massive. It’s the difference between, say, a stock E46 where power is pulled back gracefully and a Dinan tuned V8 one that just falls flat on its face in the middle of an intersection. It’s why F1 banned that stuff but Cars and Coffee dweebs turn it off.
Look, if you know what buttons to push, it’s probably not so bad to tune. But if Tesla knew what buttons to push they’d have done so already. If Tesla knew what they were doing, Consumer Reports wouldn’t have called them out for atrocious on-road ABS performance in the Model Three. If Tesla knew what they were doing the pre-production leaks about the CT wouldn’t have been fixated on its terrible driving dynamics.
Could Tesla find people to punch the right buttons? Doubt it. Hyundai poached BMW’s M folks, given their reputation within the tech industry Telsa is able to recruit software geeks who have a fetish for midgets in burlap and huffing South African farts. Electrocar geeks are working on EVs with other manufacturers. When Ken Block went electric, where’d he go? Not Tesla.
The CT may have an advantage with its packaging but Ford has the advantage with the people who know how to tune stuff.
Besides, the redditors were fixated on the CT’s fully inflated tires as a big reason it struggled to find traction. If they can’t even set up the tires correctly they’re not going to know how to set up the software properly.
So how do either of these things compare to a 1987 Suzuki Samurai?
Compared to a 1987 Samurai the Lightning and CyberTruck are less capable offroad but also in fairness, less expensive (or likely to be less expensive in the case of the CyberTruck).
Also, as an owner of a Suzuki you will not face embarrassment from the CEO’s social media activity.
I’ve always heard great things about the Samurai offroad, how it can do things a heavier vehicles like H2 Hummers and even Land Rovers can’t.
The cost of electricity to run a Lightning off road is more than the cost of fuel for a Samurai to do the same thing.
The Lightning will achieve like 25 miles of range off road, leaving you stranded until someone comes along that can recover your 14,000 pound brick, whereas the Suzuki will run all day then get you home
Neither of these will be anything more than an average off-roader. Also I think the Cybertruck would actually be cooler if it was offered as a two door. It would take away some of the weird proportions of the cab area while still being futuristic but that will never happen.
I’m not convinced the numbers are actually there for the cybertruck to be better. It looks like both the Lighting and the CT have their wheel hubs at the bottom of the body-colored body. Both the cybertuck and lighting clearly have a pack hanging down low. I would not be surprised if the actual numbers ended up being about the same.
The picture you have marked up looks to be a concept or the launch prototype, which I think will have almost nothing mechanical in common with the finished product.
I also think that this thing will just be model X/S based and have like 5 inches of suspension travel. I would love to be proved wrong, but the gigantic bulge hanging down under the rear bumper is telling me that this is just a reskin.
Simply by virtue of having air suspension, the Tesla will end up being more capable, IMO.
Fair enough. I’m hoping it has cross-linked and/or multichamber springs. Cool bits of technology. Just a bit cynical.
Smart.
It seems to me that both would have issues due to their heavy weight.
At one point, the traction you need to climb something will be greater than the traction you get from being heavy.
And, boy, are you gonna need powerful winches when somebody gets properly stuck.
I propose a trade:
Lightning: Gets height adjustable air suspension so it’s not stuck with piss poor ground clearance.
Cybertruck: Gets lockers or individual motors per wheel to mimic what lockers do.
There have been a few discussions on here lately talking about how individual motors are not as good as a single motor with a locker. With individual motors each has half of the torque so if one wheel lifts the total torque that can be applied halves. With a locker all of the torque gets transferred to the wheel still on the ground.
This is a similar effect to “electronic diff lock” on open diffs. My buddy has a Land Rover LR4 with open diffs and I’ve seen it stall out because locking up one wheel with the brakes effectively turns the diff into a factor of 2 torque reduction.
The issue with that is snapping axles. Also the extra weight and complexity of locking diffs and their actuation mechanism. Also with their actuation mechanism failing resulting in the diffs perma locked (good luck manually unlocking them).
As someone who hates electronics if I had to choose between a “theoretical locker” (via one motor per wheel) or an electronically actuated mechanical lockers on independent suspension BEV setups I’d go with the one motor per wheel setup.
This isn’t a problem if the left and right motor can each produce enough torque to spin the tires and be traction limited. Which, considering how most EVs lately are 600+ hp, shouldn’t be a problem.
They actually don’t make a crazy amount of wheel torque because they don’t have low range.
Yeah, but gas cars can spin the tires and be traction limited without low range, and I would assume electric cars are the same, considering electric torque and all that.
See my other response but electric cars only have roughly 1st gear gas car gear reduction. It is plenty easy to stall out a gas car going up a ledge or something.
Totaly wrong.
Electric motors makes max torque at 0 (zero) revs, the torque than drops and is lowest at max. rpm.
High/low range is no issue here, regulation of wheel slip is and big time at that.
Yes, but for example the rivian R1T makes like 900 lbft. Without looking up gear ratios I think that would end up in the range of 8000 lb ft at the wheels. (4000 per axle, 2000 per wheel)
My VW has the theoretical capability to put down nearly twice the total wheel torque of a rivian to just ONE of the rear wheels. (300 lb ft x 4.15 1st gear x 4.55 final drive x 2.7 low range is like 15k ft lb wheel torque. (Granted, things would be breaking long before then).
Even accounting for reduced torque output (this might not be a great assumption considering it isn’t hard to achieve peak torque in 1st gear) it’s EASILY able to put way more torque down off road. Not even close. FOUR times the torque on a single axle.
And the ratios on it are nowhere near as agressive as something like a jeep or something with a granny first gear.
Again, it’s not that hard to lock up the whole drivetrain on something with “edl” (brake traction control) even on dirt.
Yeah but 2000lbft is more than enough to spin the tires and be traction limited off-road.
Remember this is the same electric pickup that has like 800hp and can do 0-60 in like 3 seconds or something. This thing makes enough wheel torque to be traction limited on pavement, it’s definitely traction limited on dirt.
I understand what you’re saying but road conditions and off road conditions are not the same. You can certainly get in a situation where you have more traction than torque. Think most of the weight on 2 of the wheels and trying to go up a ledge. Trying to lift the front of the vehicle (which may weigh 4000lbs) up a ledge with only 1500lbs or so of force is not going to work very well. For example see 7:22 of this video. The rear tires are on a low traction surface and spinning and the fronts appear to have more traction than torque and aren’t moving at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAws0utmcS0&themeRefresh=1
I’m sure I could find more videos like that, especially in places like Moab.
I have watched my buddy’s LR4 try to climb a maybe 10″ rock on dirt and just stop with no wheel spin. In this situation since it uses the brakes to stop the spinning, that halves the available torque. It has a 43:1 crawl ratio. times 315lbft that’s about 13500 at the wheels. Let’s assume it’s stalling at half of that engine torque. That gives us 6750 lb ft. Or what, 1700 per wheel? Except even more because the center diff lock allows between 0% and 100% of available torque to either end.
1700 ft-lb was not enough to spin the tires on dirt. If it was rock it wouldn’t have even been close.
Okay so I did some math. If you have a 6000lb vehicle crossed up so bad that only two tires are bearing weight, that’s 3000lb per tire. The Google search number for an all terrain tire on dry pavement is a coefficient of friction of 0.7. I would guess an all terrain on Moab slickrock is not quite this good but close.
3000×0.7 gives us 2100lb of traction, meaning 2100lbft for a 24″ tire to overcome traction or 2800lbft for a 32″. That’s worst case, crossed up extremely bad on dry pavement.
The Google value for wet pavement traction is only 0.4. With that friction it would take only 1200lbft to overcome traction on a 24″ or 1600lbft on a 32″. Wet pavement traction is still better than dirt.
If a Rivian can make 2000lbft to each wheel, that’s enough to be traction limited on wet rocks or dirt, but likely not on dry rocks. So don’t take your Rivian to Moab I guess.
I’m guessing Rivian and Cybertruck engineers did this math while speccing the motors, gear reduction, and tire size-they made sure it had enough torque to be traction limited in 95% of the situations a really heavy crew cab fullsize pickup will ever be in, but they didn’t make the motors bigger than that for cost, efficiency, ect.
Rivian’s data is 560 Nm of torque on each front wheel motor. It has two. Gearing ratio is 12.6
This gives… 7,056 Nm of torque at the wheel. Add another 7,056 Nm at the other front wheel and a bit more at each of rear wheels too (8.454Nm). At 0 RPM, mind you. Zero. RPM.
PL71Enthusiast’s extrapolation on zero data is flawed at best and malicious at worst.
Elon seems a bit distracted with other topics on “X” to respond to Farley.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the demands for a professional CEO.
Tesla’s value could drop $670 – 700 billion and that would not mean it going out of business, just being valued appropriately for an automaker of its size in a highly competitive market.
Hopefully the CyberTruck will have enough cargo capacity for the baggage that comes with owning it.
By pure logic, since no Cybertrucks are currently on the road, then they are all off-road*, are they not?**
*(since potentially-existing-in-the-future Cybertrucks are not on any type of road at all)
The Lightning is out and about by the thousands, and is therefore the best at off-roading, because they can actually be used off road, instead of not at all by anyone.
**Test mules excepted. No mules were harmed in the creation and posting of this comment.
My question is how many Lightening owners are actually gonna go off road? I’m guessing most of these will be driven around the ‘burbs their whole life. My other guess is that the Ramcharger will take the wind out of both Lightening and Cybertruck sales when it hits the market. I’d never buy a Lightening or Cybertruck, but I’m considering the Ram. Hybrid drive train, great towing rating, and all wheel drive to get to the ski slopes. Fingers crossed that it isn’t priced insanely.
My question is how many [INSERT VEHICLE HERE] owners are actually gonna go off road?
COTD. Places like our little community are hugely self-selecting, but the population as a whole, right on target.
And I suspect despite what we might otherwise think, the chances don’t actually increase just because any given vehicle becomes modified with some sort of visible off-road gear.
I can attest, as someone who does probably between 1/4 and 1/3 of their annual driving off-road, that the number of folks I see on the trail is dramatically less than the folks I see driving around with perpetually clean lifted vehicles covered in overlanding gear. Even fewer of those are folks I meet on the technical trails that would require those lifts and the copious amounts of recovery gear. It’s an odd version of conspicuous wealth, to be sure.
My building has a garage, and for a time, a Hummer H3 was parked down there. It made my day the first time I came across it and it was covered nearly top to bottom in mud.
Many years ago I lived in an apartment complex that had a parking garage, and I’d get nasty notes from the building management that they didn’t appreciate my Jeep constantly being dirty from my off-road trips. The garage also had a washing bay, and I decided to make sure I washed my Jeep there every time I went off-road, knowing full well they had cameras in the garage and washing bay. Eventually, I got a note from the building management letting me know that I was free to keep my Jeep dirty and to please stop using the washing bay. Who would have guessed they wouldn’t get as much satisfaction from my malicious compliance as I did?!
Taking a Lightning “off road” means not getting more than 100 miles from a Level 2 or Super charger.
Eh, I know at least one person who has one as a ranch truck. That’s not reeeeeeally wheeling, but it’s at least off-pavement. It’s comfy and quiet, and it does the job.
I don’t think either of these two are going to be popular with hardcore off-roaders. Like David said, the geometry isn’t there, and my gosh, that Cybertruck looks like a massive PITA to wheel around. Too big, too heavy, too long, looks butt-turrible to see out of. Normal pickups are bad enough in that department without looking like a Giant Triangle of Blind Spot. Like, there’s good reason why Jeep folks love to remove doors and roofs, folks.
As long as the truck can be recharged at the ranch, that sounds pretty sweet, since you’re probably not going to be exceeding the battery range on any day. If you’re out in the middle of nowhere (gas and food being 50 miles away), you could pretty much do all your daily things with a Lightning without worrying about fuel. And then you drive your princess truck for when you gotta do something that requires hundreds of miles.
you have far more faith in Elon than I do. that overgrown delorean does not look to be short enough wheel base or light enough in general to be much more than an occasional fire road hill rider. I doubt highly it will wipe the floor with the Ford F-150 Lightning off-road, As you have noted about the tesla cars, the Ford now has years on Tesla with it’s development progress, and they like the raptor “Halo” aspect.
Well, there will undoubtable be a Tremor version of the Lightning in the near future, which come to think of it, isn’t a Lightning Tremor a Thunder?
They both seem to have issues. But, to be fair, only one of them is actually for sale.
“But it’s probably not the right truck for, say, 2026.” Is that when the cybertruck is finally on the market? By then the Lightning will be through its mid-cycle refresh and probably have a Raptor trim.
I was going to say something about how incredible the shocks would have to be for a Lightning Raptor, but the L is listed at 6500lbs online vs the R’s 5740lbs, so it’s not the stretch I thought
The bigger issue is probably a huge hit to range with the massive tires, aggressive motor programming, and launch modes, etc. Not that anyone actually uses Raptor trims for desert running but it would be especially hard on an EV.
@David, now that you are in California you should head up to the Hollister Hills SVRA CA State Park for some off-roading. It’s a fun little park, near Monterey so maybe during Car Week next August. It’s cheap and they do have camping if you want to do that.
Leaving all politics aside from this discussion, neither the Lightning nor CyberTruck are really off-road vehicles and will not be used as such. The Lightning was a safer bet. They used a lot of what they had so it’s a transition vehicle. Everyone says they get tired of the same looking vehicles and the CyberTruck comes along, and they took chances and now everyone complains it does not look like a regular truck.
it would be interesting to have a Rivian versus the other shoot out since the Rivian was in fact initially at least marketed as the Offroad EV.
They both seem to have issues. But, to be fair, only one of them is actually for sale.
CyberTruck release is officially 11/30. I wonder what the reservation conversion to sales will be.
So the release date is November 2030? That seems about right.
No, the end of the month is the event. They typically deliver about 50 units during these events. I have no idea how that will scale, Ford has only sold 16,000 Lightnings so it’s not a big lead.
not a long time to get the drive wheels to function properly I would say.
They’re only delivering 10 this time lmao
they probably won’t be available in volume till next year and even then it will be a trickle. I’m guessing the conversion will be low but they will sell all they make as it will be supply constrained.
I don’t think it’s going to be as high as some of the more…dedicated…Tesla fans think it will be. Some seem to think it’ll be nearly 1:1. But the reservation is a paltry $100, and refundable. Not a great predictor of sales, especially given the vehicle in question is polarizing and will end up costing more than originally promised. Not to mention the delays on actually getting it to market. I’m curious how quickly they’ll be able to build them, and what sales will look like after the initial hype dies down.
I think the Ford Tweet is a little petty, but only a little. Also,it almost feels bad bagging on the CyberTurd because its just so easy…almost. That being said, I think the Lightning struggled on that hill just as much as the CT did once past the initial turn in…which I still contend was taken badly intentionally for calibration reasons. Neither of these vehicles climb that hill “with ease” IMO.
I can’t help but notice that this Lightning is missing the troublesome active air dam.
If you tried this with a stock Lightning you’d quickly transition from the normal air dam failure warnings to a complete failure requiring a body shop visit.
…. That came off a little too harsh on the Lightning, which is easily the best truck I’ve ever owned and would highly recommend to anybody.
Also, I don’t think it’s just the right electric truck for 2023. It’s going to have longevity that the cost-optimized purpose-built EVs of the mid-term future are going to lack. You can fix quite a lot of it with F-150 parts. The sales volume is high enough and the access is good enough that there should be aftermarket support for the battery for at least a decade. The ground clearance is plenty good enough for tons of applications. And it off-roads way better than my old 4×4 F-350 ever did. Not only does it have torque for days – enough torque to get you in trouble when you run over that thing you didn’t mean to because it goes over it so damned easy – but it can also drive around a muddy yard without ripping up the grass.
Anyway. Good truck. That air dam sucks though!
I remember renting a Grand Cherokee like 10 years ago and taking it off roading and finding the deep front air dam was designed to be easily removable without tools. Maybe the same here?
That was an interesting thought, so I did some research.
Turns out that…. no… it isn’t easily removable. In fact it’s a complete pain in the ass.
https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/removed-active-air-dam-from-my-f-150-diy-writeup.2246/
Not a big FORD guy here.
But given the choice between this or the Tesla, well no contest.
BTW, I’d be embarrassed to be seen near anything connected to that idiot, racist turd eating fuck. Too bad we can’t just deport his ass. YMMV.
I don’t share your feelings, but I’m a big Lightning fan.
OK. I apologise.
You never have to apologize around here for things like that. You can be yourself.
[Edit: OK maybe it was a bit mich. We do want this to be a civil place! But no worries 😉 ]
Should have done the /s thing.
But seriously, why do we care?
Because we are supposed to care.
TIL “/s.”
Man, will THAT ever come in handy.
A civil place is fine as long as it doesn’t include a civil war.
Because you can’t deport citizens from their own country, and he was naturalized over 20 years ago, so we’re stuck with him
Maybe we should build a wall?
That’s not entirely accurate. A naturalized citizen can be deported for, among other things;
OK, so we just need to subpoena him and “accidentally” print the wrong date on the document, so he doesn’t show up
I think we goad him into revoking his citizenship somehow. Make being a citizen the new woke.
Or take a page out of the movie Brazil.
Elon Musk: “Why are you deporting me?!?!?!”
Federal Agent: “Don’t play stupid with me, Mr. Dusk.”
Nope, unless the criminal act is treason. You might be thinking of the rules for a legal resident. A legal resident can have their residency status revoked upon the conviction for a felony.
The refusal to testify before Congress rule expires after 10 years.
The member of a subversive group rule expires after 5 years.
Musk would have to be convicted of treason to face revocation of his naturalization.
There’s nothing natural about that guy.
Musk has made it dead easy to discuss him now. He is a racist and an antisemite. There is no arguing those points thanks to his own social media posts.
Separating the art from the “artist”, the Cybertruck is a boutique vehicle. Traditional truck buyers aren’t going to be interested. Those who buy them will probably love the things for what they are over what they can do. The performance will probably be very good, but only for non-truck stuff.
So he has a few things in common with Henry Ford…
He sure does! There’s one thing they don’t have in common that I wouldn’t mind seeing Elon go for.
The way he pronounces Yosemite just like Trump did?
Henry Ford has been dead for longer than most people have been alive so I don’t think you can say anyone is actively affirming his political views by buying a Ford. Every Tesla you buy enables Musk
It’s sad because I love EVs and a Tesla used to be my dream vehicle
I’m sorry, you’re just wrong. If everybody stopped buying Teslas this second Elon Musk would remain one of the top five richest men in the world, and could still do whatever he wants.
People buying Teslas in 2023 are not enabling Elon Musk to do anything. 2009 maybe, but not now. He’s already at the top and he’s not coming down no matter what.
His money is in stock value. If the stock tanks, then so do his shares. He will still be megarich but not as megarich.
It will likely do a lot of truck stuff well that most people do. Throw stuff in from Home Depot, carry bikes, furniture, big Tvs. Most people are not towing anything with their trucks. The tall sides of the bed restrict throwing in stuff over the side but how much functionality is really lost? You won’t put a wood rack on it but most truck owners don’t do that either.
I have a Ford. F-150 hybrid, and it’s given me far more trouble than my first run Model 3 P has. I’ll take the Cybertruck when my number hits, thanks.