This morning, Editor-At-Large Patrick George wrote about the alleged dip in EV demand in his article “My Theory Of Why Electric Vehicle Demand Is ‘Dropping’ Suddenly.” Some media outlets had been pondering: “Do people just not like EVs?” Patrick, who doesn’t agree with that, broke down all the issues holding back EVs: high MSRPs, insufficient infrastructure, high interest rates, among others. I almost threw an editor’s note in there about the layperson’s lack of EV knowledge being a major factor, but for whatever reason decided not to. Good thing we have reader Duke of Kent, who hopped into the comments to include that important note.
See, here was the short knowledge gap-related discussion during the editing of Patrick’s blog:
And here’s a look at Duke of Kent’s full comment:
I read about EVs here, and I remain curious about them. I think I am somewhat representative of the average person in that regard — not an EV evangelist who believes electric cars can do no wrong nor an EV hater. I would be open to an EV to replace my current car when the time comes (I am not currently car shopping, and there doesn’t seem to be much on the new market that appeals to me anyway.), but there are a lot of things that I just don’t understand about them and how they’d fit in my specific situation.
I have a standard 110V outlet in my garage, and I know that doesn’t do much to charge a car… but I also don’t drive very far (most days are <25 miles, and I’ve never driven more than 100 miles in a single day), so if I can squeeze out that much charge overnight, that might be all I need. If that’s the case, then I don’t care about public charging infrastructure, and I would enjoy never having to stop at a gas station to fuel up again. I don’t know much about home electricity, so I could probably hire an electrician to put in 220V there, but I don’t know what it takes to get DC or if that would even be practical in my situation (I live in a townhouse), and I’m not sure what that would cost.
I am easy on my cars, driving less than 4,000 miles per year and ensuring maintenance is done regularly. As such, my cars last a long time. I still fear battery degradation over a long period of time even though I’m told that EV batteries work differently than batteries in other electronics. What happens to EVs as they age? I’d be quite disappointed, for example, if I had David’s i3 with its toasted battery without California’s interesting replacement program — especially after having dropped a ton of money on the car to begin with.
And speaking of the price, that’s the elephant in the room. The $60k average is definitely eye-catching, but I also understand that it’s possible to skew numbers like that. A straight average (mean) could easily be affected by a few very expensive options. I wonder what the median EV price is — or even the median adjusted for units sold. I don’t want to spend $60k on a car — especially if that car comes with limitations, but I don’t mind spending a bit for quality.
I realize that my situation is unique, but that’s kind of the point. Everyone’s situation is unique, especially when we’re talking about an only car. Someone who uses an EV as a second car can accept some limitations or compromises because the other car can pick up the slack, but when it’s your only one, it’s got to be able to do it all all the time. The very early adopters jumped on EVs as second cars; then secondary early adopters picked up EVs as their only cars. EVs haven’t been on the market for too terribly long, so these early and sorta-early adopters don’t need to replace their cars yet. That leaves “everybody else”. People are comfortable with what they’re used to. Some might be interested in doing the research on how to fit an EV into their lives, but the path of least resistance is to just go with what you’re used to, and that’s ICE.
Thank you Duke of Kent for your great input! We’re grateful that you’re here to read, and even more grateful that you’re here to contribute in the comments!
This is one of the best comments threads I’ve seen here: it has started a real conversation without (so far) any acrimony. Good job picking Duke’s comment —and, thank you, Duke, for that comment!
My parents have had a Skoda Enyaq since January 2022 and they don’t have a ‘proper’ charger at home. They use a 240v 3-pin – the standard household outlet here in the UK. Charging power is limited to 2.4kW continuous at 10 amps- I think in the US with the lower voltage but higher amps available a 110v socket will do 1.5kW safely. Putting in a ‘drier socket’ at 240v is easy in many US households I believe – Technology Connections on YouTube has talked about it.
My parents with their Enyaq drive all over the country – they just have to plan things a little more. The UK is lucky in that we actually have a fairly decent selection of chargers now across much of the country. There are a few outposts which can be tricky though.
I’m quite sure that Duke would do well with an EV. You set the car to only charge partway unless you need a full charge, which helps with protecting the battery. Different manufacturers recommend different setups – my Polestar recommends 90%, the Enyaq recommends 80%. With a fairly conservative EV efficiency of 2.5 miles per kilowatt hour (which is worse than my Polestar gets unless I’m driving like a tool), you’ll replenish 30 miles in an overnight 8 hour charge on a 1.5kW charger. And the Polestar is not the most efficient EV out there, not by a long shot!
I’m waiting to find out the cost per mile, including depreciation. Until the market figures out what a used up EV is worth and when they actually become used up we wont know. I am grateful for all the selfless people out there spending their hard earned money on EV’s without this information so the rest of can figure it out.
This is a big issue to me too. I went as far as to put a spreadsheet together that let me compare an EV to an ICE, so I could compare total cost of ownership and ROI on the upfront investment. The thing is you can fiddle with all the variables (electric cost, gas cost, depreciation, repair costs, miles/year and upfront rebates (a big one)), and go from a 10% return on your upfront investment (great), to a negative (bad) while keeping the variables within the realm of reasonable
When I bought my Volt, it had four years left on the Voltec warranty, and the break even point on gas savings alone was right at four years, regardless of depreciation. Seemed like a win-win. It actually ended up taking closer to five to break even because of higher insurance, yearly license plate costs, and the price of fuel actually dipped a fair amount during that time, but there were also the intangibles of safer and newer. From a cold hard cash perspective though, it’s been a great deal since I’ve gotten two years (and running) of pure gravy out of it. Unfortunately, the current prices on both new and used PHEVs and EVs aren’t adding up anywhere near to that kind of ROI.
Yeah, there are/were some pretty good deals on used volts and leafs that gas saving alone will cover the purchase costs. My analysis was looking more at new and trying to compare like to like, primarily the lightening vs. a new f150. I guess I was somewhat surprised how tweaking a variable like depreciation even a small amount can make the EV a great deal, or a money loser in the end. Like Scott said above, until we have more EV’s on the road and better numbers of things like maintenace and depreciation it’s really hard to make the call
It is not a lack of knowledge holding me back, I did look into it. Right EVs are way more than ICE because people want them.
Just ran an outside 110v and was told a 220v can be done for about the same cost, plus the charger.
That is what I am waiting for, prices to get more in line and standardizing of chargers.
On a side note an EV and the battery issue is one of few cases were a lease might be the better option. Would need to research that, but bought 2 ICE cars in the last year so it is a bit off.
On the lease thing; in addition to battery concerns (which seem to be proving less and less of an issue as things go on), I’d be wary of buying mainly because of how fast the technology is evolving. I can almost guarantee that when the next breakthrough comes (be it battery chemestry, charging, motor efficiency, etc.) the used prices the now “old” tech is going to plummet.
I agree, the lease I had stunk on ice. But for an EV, maybe avoid at 10k battery replacement and let that be the dealer’s or other guy’s problem. 🙂
I would look into a sedan as a daily, keep the toy, and maybe the wagon for hauling duties. Unless there a good wagon EV by then.
I was building road going EV’S back before you could buy them (bought my first EV, a used US Electricar conversion in 2001), and there has always been an education problem. For those of us interested, or who needed technical help back then, we joined the EV discussion list (EVDL). It was through that early group of enthusiasts that I ended up curating an extensive FAQ for a few years. The EVDL maintained it so they wouldn’t have to keep answering the same questions over and over, but could instead just refer people to the FAQ. I think the idea was that if they were really genuinely interested, they would take a look later or at least get involved with the community. It was always fun hearing the stories of NEDRA events and the everyday adventures of some early pioneers in the field, as well as others conversion progress and helping with tech questions.
To echo other comments, Duke of Kent is the target market for entry level EV’s and even some of the compliance cars (e-golf, focus electric, etc) that can be had cheap used. I have a Model 3 mid range and my 110 plug will happily put 20-40 miles on it between the time I plug in when I get home and the time I leave the next morning.
And if you drove 100 miles one day, and could only charge 40 that night, you still have the remainder of your 200 or 300-mile range to get you through the next day. You may take a week of driving your 20 miles each day and topping up 40 each night to get the ‘tank’ full again, but it wouldn’t impact the driving experience.
Good info, I commute to work 75 miles a day. Your scenario would not work for me.
I’d blame autowash for whipping your appliance into compliance.
Duke of Kent is an ideal EV candidate. We have a 2017 Smart bought for $9k used. Put about 3k miles a year on it. No range change, about 50 miles in the winter and it said 83 miles range when I took it off the charger today. Charge at home 20% to full overnight on 120v. Will charge on a basis public charger in 2 hours while shopping.
I was an EV skeptic too. 7 years ago we bought a used Leaf as a second car anyway, simply because it was so cheap (“How bad could it be to not be worth THAT?”). OMG, what an eye opener. We absolutely love this thing. Battery degradation is of no practical consequence. Zero maintenance and repairs. Perfect for around town, which is about half of our driving. We use it whenever it makes sense.
Before, we had a Jetta TDI Sportwagen with its fantastic mileage. Now we have a thirsty Highlander V6 and a Leaf. The net effects:
EV depreciation is your friend. If you can, buy a cheap EV and learn what works for you. YMMVBYRMNM (your mileage may vary, but your range may not matter).
Lack of education certainly feeds into things, but don’t forget some people’s desire not to obtain said knowledge. Or, to listen when spoken to, but most definitely deciding that an electric car is just not for them when all is said and done.
Case in point: when I bought my 2012 Volt in 2016, I was the first person in town to have an electric anything on four wheels beyond a golf cart. It’s a small town, word spread. One of the neighborhood moms stopped by one morning to check out this new electric vehicle thing-o-ma-jank as I was returning from dropping off my daughter at school. She drives a red Mustang convertible, so she does like cars beyond the appliance factor. The conversation went to the best of my recollection like this:
Her: “So, that’s electric?”
Me: “Yes, but only for the first 35 miles or so, then it kicks over to gas”
Her: “So, you have to plug it in?”
Me: “Yes”
Her: “Every night?”
Me: “Yeah – a bit like a cell phone”
Her: “How do you do that – where’s the cord?”
Me – pointing through the open garage door at the Bosch EVSE I had recently installed: “Just grab the plug and plug it into the charge port on the car (pointing at charge-port).”
Her: “Isn’t that where the gas goes?”.
Me: “No, there’s a gas filler door around the other side?”
Her: “There are two gas filler doors?!”
Me: “No, the one up front is where you plug into electricity to charge”
Her: “So…, you have to plug it in… Every NIGHT?!”
Me: “Yes, but you don’t have to stop at gas stations anymore! I’ve only had to gas up once in the last two months – and it’s saving me over $4 per day on my commute!”
Her: “But, you have to plug that thing into the car Every Night?!”
Me: “Yes, but…”
Her: “Gosh, I couldn’t do that, I don’t think I’d remember… and the plug is way over there on the wall. It looks nice though – kind of sporty! It’s too bad you can’t drive it very far.”
Me: “You can though! It’s just the first 35 miles or so that it runs on electricity. After that it switches to gas and since I live 12 miles from work, it’s perfect!”
Her: “But you said you have to plug it in Every Night”
Me: “That’s if I want to run it on electricity – I could just not plug it in and run it on gas all the time, but then I don’t save the money I would otherwise”.
Her: “Yeah, I’d probably just do that – cool car though!”
At this point I was actually trying to figure out if she was being obtuse on purpose, but I really don’t think she was – some folks just really want to fixate on why something won’t work. I had known her for awhile since our kids had become friends. These wide-eyed proclamations were simply reflections of her desire to not have to ever mix automobiles and electricity. That was close to seven years ago, and I can guarantee her thoughts haven’t changed and aren’t likely to change over the course of the next seven. It is yet another of the many hurdles EV adoption is facing.
That’s pretty much the exact conversation I had with my parents about my PHEV. Then, when they were talking about buying a new car, I tried to explain regular hybrids to them, but my mother kept thinking a hybrid wouldn’t work for them because my hybrid could only go 26 miles on electric and they always have to go farther than that. It didn’t matter that I explained that there are hybrids that are just more efficient and they wouldn’t have to plug them in; they bought a 4Runner.
I got through to my parents and they love their CT6 PHEV. They’ve had it almost 5 years now. The bought it used CPO, and the depreciation at the time made it cheaper than any other trim of CT6, and because it was only 1 year old, but CPO, it actually had a longer bumper to bumper warranty than a new CT6 did, but at a nearly $30,000 cut off the original MSRP.
I had this exact conversation so many times when I had my Volt too. It’s really pretty easy, but it takes a few minutes initially to understand, so marketing never got the message out because it doesn’t fit in a commercial or a few lines of social media. Also, some people get so worked up about charging every night. It takes seconds to plug in my car and it’s just a part of what we do when we park the car. It’s way less time in aggregate than gas station visits.
Duke of Kent asks a lot of great questions and has a lot of great commentary there.
Maybe it’s worth having an EV podcast or even gathering the questions people have and answering them. I’d be happy to help answer questions. I have about 6 years of PHEV experience between the Volt and 330e, and I also design electrical systems for buildings and building sites, so I’m really informed on the Level 2 and DC fast charge equipment (EVSE) as well as the building and utility infrastructure questions. I find with clients that it’s much easier to talk about miles of charge gained in each system, rather than kWh. kWh makes people’s eyes glaze over.
It’s not for everyone and there’s pros and cons. As an electrical engineer, I’m really into the tech, but I am also very pragmatic and try to give people the truth. For example, I cringe a bit when I see people finance an older EV or PHEV that is past it’s 8-10 year warranty, and take out a 5 year loan on the car when they can barely afford the payment. It’s just really risky. It will probably be fine, but the chances of a really big repair bill are much higher than a well maintained gas car. So overall I think the move to EV’s and PHEV’s is going significantly hurt the people 10 years from now that are struggling to buy the $5000 and under cars and keep them on the road, unless manufacturers start getting serious about making battery replacements easier, cheaper, and most of all, make new replacement packs available when the car is 10+ years old. It’s the packs that take these off the road, but that’s not very “green” when the rest of the car is in great condition. If battery pack replacement costs were reasonable, I would still be driving my Volt, but I didn’t want the risk of the pack going bad, so I sold it while it still had value.
I do like the idea of an Autopian EV podcast – it would likely be one of the more level-headed ones out there to answer the type of reality-based questions The Duke of Kent brought up, and maybe to share some of the goofier stories those of us with PHEVs and BEVs have encountered.
kWh makes people’s eyes glaze over for sure. I’m actually interested in stuff like that and I still had to make some brain adjustments so I don’t mentally check out when those types of numbers are discussed. I found with family and friends, either money or an mpg equivalent worked best for discussion.
The money angle was easy enough, and a pretty impressive figure. I had worked out that a trip to work, along with a few errands before heading back home cost me roughly $5.00 in the ’93 Cadillac I was driving then. At the electricity rates at the time, I had figured out that it only cost $0.75 to make the same trip in the Volt. I was even surprised by that. The mpg equivalent that I figured out at the time was that on electricity the Volt got 40 miles to the gallon, but a gallon of gasoline was always $1.15. These were handy figures to have at the ready for the several times I was told I probably spent more money in electricity than what the gas actually cost.
And, I also cringe just seeing used gen 1 Volts with over 100,000 miles at loan-requiring prices. There are likely quite a few people who are going to have some nice-looking, well-engineered, underwater bricks sitting out in their driveways in the next few years, especially given GM’s (the others’) stance of “suck it, second owners”. I gave some thought to selling mine while I could get some dollars back out of it, but decided to just run the thing until it dies since it already paid me back its entire cost. 112,000 miles and currently still running strong. For how much longer is anyone’s guess.
A Huge Thing Holding Back Electric Cars Is: Reality 🙂
I know people who think ICE vehicles are a monstruosity.
I know people who consider the mere existence of EVs as a personal insult to their shiny self.
I consider myself being in the middle. I love EVs, would own one, don’t have one.
People should realize that for a huge percentage of car owners, filling up / charging up / gathering pixie dust outside of home or a parking while doing something else is a process which can not take more than five minutes without becoming stressful or annoying, and feeling as a real loss of precious time.
I honestly don’t care whether I can top up an EV in 25 minutes or 75, at a station – lost time is lost time. On the flip side, I’ll gladly get an EV that I can charge in my garage overnight.
Which brings us to Reality:
EVs are an amazing type of vehicle for commutersEVs are tethered to your home / base / parking / garage48% of vehicle owners in the US have a parking / garage with an electrical outlet (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1325245/us-parking-situation-at-home-for-car-owners/.The) remaining 52-ish percent are likely to skip on an EV even if they wanted to get one.EVs require a real effort and commitement for anyone living in a big city, with street parking / non-electrified parking at home. This automatically takes away A LOT of potential clients.Which brings me to the regrets part.
Among other things, Tesla were the first to try swappable batteries. They dropped the idea, unfortunately.
I don’t expect the whole pack to be swappable, but a standardazied pack that would be enough for say 100 miles of autonomy, with an integrated pack filling in for the rest, would allow rapid swaps, which will take the main problem out of the equation, will make EVs behaving just like ICE vehicles as far as filling up/charging goes, would make them accessible to owners who don’t have at-home charging ability, and will bring the best of both worlds.
China is already doing it. It might not be a perfect implementation, we will see more videos of cars losing their battery packs on the move like the one that showed last week, but one thing is clear: replaceable battery packs (standardized) will solve much more issues than they will create. It will be like propane bottles – bring your empty one, get a full one.
Not to mention that this will bring the standardized replaceable battery packs under tighter quality control, and they can be made cheaper (and less lasting), as sending them for recycling will be a daily process – just weed out the end-of-service-life ones every day and bring new ones.
FWIW, Not everyone stays away from owning an Electric car/truck/suv due to ignorance or being uninformed or uneducated! But I do find that elitist attitude both disgustion and hilarious! I’m actuall very school educated and street smart and a mechanic of 42 yesrs and so, yeah, I think I DO know a thing or three about EV vehicles and hers why I wont own one, yet! … Fact #1- EV cars ARE too expensive/way over priced/greedilly priced way higher than they need to be!… Fact #2- They require a dozen, two dozen or more very heavy, very expensive batteries! Have fun paying that $8k-$12k bill when a couple batteries need to be replaced, and they will, they just dont last very long!. My youngest kid works as a service writer at a Honda service center, he feels really bad for customers whenever someone gets their bill for batt replacements, as some cost $1,600+ each! I wont even touch them in my shop! I send them to a rival shop up the road that doesnt mind getting bounced checks for EV parts and labor! lol… Fact #3- Not all charge ports are the same on every vehicle or on every charging station, so good luck finding a charging station that has the correct “plug” that fits your vehicles port!… Fact #4- Charging takes HOURS and HOURS! Not just minutes. So, What happens to you or what do you do when your batts are dead, or too low to go more than say a block or two, but you HAVE to get to that hospital 15-20 minutes away ASAP? Sure, you could call am ambulance, but what if you live where it takes an ambulance 60-90 minutes to reach you? There are many rural areas here in the U.S.A. like that… Fact #5- Electricity rates here in NYC are ridiculous, do I really want to add any more cost to that already high ($400+ monthly now) bill by charging my car off my house for 4/6/8/12 hours? Not really! Not unless the gov’s going to give me a nice monthly or big quarterly stipend for owning and charging an electric car to offset the extra on the bill? And we all know THAT will NEVER happen! lol… Fact #6- EV vehicles are much heavier than conventional gas vehicles! So you know it’s just a matter of time before the government and highway departments catch onto that fact and start charging EV owners a bigger “tax”/”fee”/”extortion” rate due to a heavier car wearing roads down faster. I can see that added on tax/fee onto the already ridiculous mandatory two year registration fee here in New York state/city! It already costs me $180 just for the two year NY state reg for my crappy old 2004 Saturn and $186.75 for my 1992 GMC Sonoma (it has a crate .350 sbc v8 in it,)! (FYI my very first car, a 1970 Ford cost only $17 to reg in 1982! you may now vomit!)… Fact #7- How long will it take before charging my vehicle A-burns my house down or B-ignites the vehicle itself on fire or C-ignites a charging station fire, or D-just bursts into flames, because some battery just felt like blowing it’s top?.. Until they perfect rechargable batteries I just wont ever feel very safe!.. For a small example, last November the battery in my wifes smartphone decided to swell up like a balloon and popped, crap was everywhere and it blew all on its own! It was not comnected to any charger and wasn’t being used at the time, it was sitting on top of a dresser all by it’s lonesome when it went off! Ruined the wood top, the batteries inards left burns on the top and on our bedroom carpeting and spots on the wall paint that cant just be washed off. And that was just one little lithium-ion battery thats roughly the size of a Saltine cracker! Imagine the destruction when a much larger lit/ion batt pops!, Now imagine dozens of big ones going off like fireworks for no good reason, while your driving to work or out to dinner or cruising along to grannies for Sunday eats! .. EV cars/trucks? No thanks!, For now, at least, I will keep on motoring with my gas powered ozone killing road boats! lol But I will say, after I had watched every televised race each weekend in that now defunct EV race league (I was hooked after race #1) I was really liking electric cars. So quick to high speed, so fast off the line from a dead start, and man, they are so quiet! Just wish they would work out the kinks a bit more and maybe develop a self recharging generator system so that we wouldnt need charging stations. But good luck to those who own one.
Woah bro you need to chill on the amphetamines and learn how to use punctuation.
GOBBLESS
A respectful rebuttal:
Fact #1 – Absolutely. With the death of the Bolt, there are no affordable EVs on the market, and even the Bolt was only “affordable” depending on your definition of the term.
Fact #2 – Valid point. We have a 2017 Leaf that peaks at about 80 miles on a full charge. New, it was just over 100. My 2019 Bolt shows no degradation yet, but the new battery is only 2 years old. With the BMS on the Bolt I’m optimistic that it will be serviceable for as long as I need it. We’ll see how things go over time, but so far Tesla has shown better-than-expected results in this area and I have no reason to think other makers won’t. Except Nissan – air cooled batteries? Really?
Fact #3 – For basic charging there really is one standard and any EV – including Tesla – can use it. The J-1772 connector will work for 120v and 240v charging. Teslas get an adapter so they can use this or the Tesla plug, which gives them a bit of an advantage in some places where the availability of L1 and L2 chargers is thin. There’s still something of a format war going on in the DCFC world, but rest assured that I have a history of picking the losers in these things. Put your money on the Tesla style simply because I bought Chademo and CCS.
Fact #4 – Yes, charging on L1 or L2 will take a while. If you get 4 miles per Kwh in your car, then an hour on L1 will give you about 4 miles. An hour on L2 gives you about 24. This is where you have to adjust your thinking around refueling. You can run a gas tank down to empty and just top it up again in a couple of minutes, but with an EV you become an opportunist (some might say parasite). When you find yourself in a place with a charger or just an accessible outlet, you plug in and go about your business. When you get back to the car you will have more fuel than when you arrived. Because I can charge at my office, I can leave work and get home with more energy than I had when I left the house and it’s all free to me. When we go out I know where chargers are available and will park and plug in while we do our thing. As a result, my average state of charge over the last year has been around 65% – 70%. I just never run down to E.
You do have a valid point here with emergencies; I ran into that once when I thought the Leaf could be a family car. I failed to plug in at work, then got a call that my daughter was sick and needed to be picked up. I had enough charge to get her and then planned to use a DC fast charger to top it off and get her home. By the time I found a DC charger that worked, we had back tracked almost to the place where I had picked her up in the first place. This is part of the reason I don’t let my Bolt run down and why we have a Leaf and a Bolt instead of 2 Leafs. It’s also my argument to people who say you don’t need a big battery – sometimes you do just need it.
Fact #5 – Yes, electricity rates will factor into a decision. In my case, we pay $.05 per Kw and it would cost me $3.30 to fully charge my 66 Kwh battery. Balance this against the cost of gas to travel the same distance and I come out way ahead. I can honestly say that with two BEV and a PHEV I have seen a negligible difference in our electric bill, possibly due to even billing spread over 12 months. This won’t be the case for everyone, but it works out well for us.
Fact #6 – Yes, states are charging extra fees to register EVs. The impetus is more about recouping lost gas taxes rather than the weight of the vehicles – that’s more of a local concern since it’s cities and counties that do the majority of road maintenance. I pay an extra $200 per year for each EV and based on my last ICE vehicle with an average 27mpg, I’m coming out way ahead on the registration fees vs. state gas tax per gallon. Plus, I’m not paying any of the other taxes on gas, my money isn’t going to the Middle East to support terrorists, and I’m not subject to the vagaries of gas pricing.
Fact #7 – Yes, battery fires can be high consequence and batteries are not without risks. However, statistics (worthless as they may be) show that while moving, a BEV is less likely to catch fire than an ICE. While parked, ICE has an advantage but is not risk-free – my wife’s Escape was recently recalled with a “do not park near structures you value” warning due to the possibility of a fuel leak over a hot engine. Any time you store energy you take a risk. It’s up to you to decide how much risk you can tolerate and how much you trust the engineers to try and resist their impulse to kill people.
While you have some valid points here, they don’t apply in every situation nor for every driver. EVs right now are not “one size fits all” but that doesn’t mean they are pointless. I shared some of your concerns when we first got into EVs but I took the chance when certain things converged and since then I have adapted. I personally have no interest in going back to an ICE vehicle for my daily driver. Hobby car, sure! Weekend cruiser, yes. DD, no thanks.
DC charging is most important for long distance driving, or for people who can’t charge at home or at work. Since these are the most difficult and expensive chargers to develop, it’s good news that the feds are helping out. Many cities now have charger requirements for new developments and that improves access to L2 charging, which can lessen the dependence on DC charging for people who can’t charge at home/work. As the number of chargers increase EV ownership will become easier and easier.
Electrification may never be the complete answer for all drivers, but there’s no reason it can’t be the majority use case over time. Personally, I believe that there could be a strong use case for contractor’s work trucks. Someone like a plumber, electrician, cable installer, who travels to a single location for the bulk of their day then returns to an office where they can charge could really save a lot on gas for their business. Extra registration fees would be nothing compared to what they spend on gas in a week. But EV work vans are not yet readily available/affordable in our area so that is stopping a couple of contractors I know are interested.
Related story: My daughter drove the Leaf over a curb and blew the tire. We called her a tow truck and I chatted with the driver a bit about EVs. He is dreading them because they are”simpler” and require less routine maintenance. Then I pointed out that he was towing us because it broke. EVs may not have an ICE, but they still have all the other parts, still have accidents, still break down, still need tires. The main vehicle maintenance business that really should be concerned about EVs is the quick oil change industry. My Bolt needs tires now, but I’ve not set foot in a quick change place since 2019.
Good lord, I could write a book on this. Instead, I’ll stop now.
Apologies for my sleep deprived ADHD thoughts.
My personal experience: I had a Chevy Volt until last year (upgraded to a Bolt EUV). Remember, the Volt is a PHEV, not a full BEV, for the context of this story. My normal daily driving amount was 20 miles. I only charged at home at 110v, and this was more than enough for me, and I went over 2000 miles between topping up the gas in the car REGULARLY. Basically, every few weeks, the gas engine would run for a few minutes to burn off old gas. But the fact remains that the only times I actually worried about gas were:
1- if a hurricane was coming
2- that was it
For the rest of the time, I charged at a 110v plug, and the car was for all intents and purposes, just like any other EV.
And now that I’ve got a Bolt EUV, I could also go on a 110v plug, and did exclusively that for the first two months. However, we moved to a new neighborhood has community L2 chargers that are free for residents, so I use those. My driving now is closer to 30 miles on weekdays and 60-70 on weekends, and charging at our L2 community chargers gets me all the juice I need (keeping in mind that I don’t go beyond 80% unless needed to help protect the battery).
Very good perspective there. For folks in temperate climates with driveways and an average commute, a used Leaf with overnight charging on a 120V outlet should be fine.
Beyond that sweet spot, it gets complicated. Can you charge at work? Do you have 240V near your parking spot? Which charging network is most common in your area? Do you have a personal animosity toward Elon Musk, Henry Ford or William Durant?
A big factor is that we have just gotten so used to having our cake and eating it, too. Just look at the top selling vehicle types – crew cab pickups and big SUVs – especially crew cab pickups. They literally do everything you would ever want a vehicle to do. We can get fuel wherever and whenever we want for CHEAP. People aren’t willing to make any compromises, and there is no incentive to do so. Another issue is the tone EV pushers use – “EVs can cover 95% of your needs! You Don’t need more than XYZ miles of range! We know what you need!” Cars have gotten so damn expensive in general, so I don’t blame people for wanting a vehicle that can do it all without compromise.
Please tell me where gasoline is “cheap”? lol
Under $3/gal in Texas currently. But the US, in a global context, has really cheap gas.
There’s also the irrational notion that you “need” to have all your bases covered, so you get a super duty truck so you can tow (you don’t have a boat or a trailer), a long bed for sheet goods for your home (it’s newer construction and doesn’t need any repairs), high clearance for off-roading (you’ve never done that), and a crew cab so you can take the family (you’re single) or all your friends (you just moved to a new city and don’t know anyone) to the game (you can’t tell baseball from soccer and ran the chess club in high school).
I have done way too much work on my house and used a lot of 2×4 and 4×8 sheet rock or sheething and 20′ baseboards and such. But I drive a 2-seater and either rent a truck once a year or pay $100 to have the materials delivered.
The 2-seater isn’t rational either, because I don’t get to drive it hard or take the top off much (it’s unwieldy), but at least it”s small.
Very true, but there is no incentive to only buy what you need 95% of the time. That requires thought and the occasional minor inconvenience which people in general are not fans of. I blame a lot of it on how well these “do-all” vehicles have been marketed. Obsession with AWD is a great example. Subaru just did way too good a job hawking their “all weather” vehicles. I asked about a FWD Highlander at the dealer when we were looking to replace my wife’s car, and the salesman looked at me like I had 2 heads. “Nobody buys those in this region (MO)!” Like I was stupid thinking I could get around on just 2 driven wheels!
I’d love to own an electric car, I wouldnt have to do the money and time costly maint.that I do myself on all of my gas vehicles. But what really holds ME back are a number of factors, and I dont think of myself as “uninformed” nor “ignorant” nor “illiterate”, since I am not only school educated, but also very street smart and have been an auto mechanic since I started working under hoods way back in 1982 when I got my very first project car, a 1971 Ford Montego, .302 v8 gas chugger. For anyone wondering, The car was a “free gift” from my then girlfriends mom (who passed in 1989) who didnt ever learn to drive and wanted her husbands unused “hunk of crap” out of her driveway. Her hubby lived in London in the U.K. for his job and rarely came to the U.S., she grew tired of watching it sink into the mud. She thought I was older than her daughter and had a drivers license, she never asked my age, so she just handed me the keys, title, reg and said “Screw my husband!, Get that hunk of shit out of my driveway! I am so sick of lookig at it” I was only 14, but had a full beard and stache, her daughter was 17 and yes, she was my first love and we stayed together for about two years and would hook up for days/weeks/months again here and there till the early 90’s and stayed close friends after that. Sadly she passed from cancer last August at only age 55 and I will miss her till the day I die.. Anyhow, the car had sat in a red clay dirt/gravel driveway for 5 or 6 years and was stuck in it hood. Thankfully, none of the chassis or undercarriage had any rust or rot! I redid every inch of the motor and electric, as every bit of rubber way dry rotted. The interior was spotless and just needed a good polishing. Took me a few months to pull out, dissassemble reseal and reinstall the motor, tranny and rear
I changed out every inch of fuel line, brake line, flushd the coolant system, replaced the water pump, timing chain, all A/C lines and tons of other rotted out parts, hoses and wires. I spent a couple grand on parts, tools and supplies and about two years on it (I took my time, since I couldnt legally drive it anyway). When I finally threw a new battery and fresh fuel in it, registered it and put her on the road she fired right up. ai drove it all over the east coast of the U.S. for about three years, than regretably sold it for $3,500k to a guy who begged me to sell it to him, he had cash, I needed cash and had a Harley, so I didnt need the car. He pulled the .302, dropped a bored and blown .427 in it and turned it into a drag strip gasser and drove it on tracks everywhere for 6 or 7 years. Did I mention that it had 313,690 orig miles on it when I got it? sold it with 415k miles on it and she started right up every day that I drove it. lol Anyhow, Fact #1-Electric cars are time consuming to charge! Fact #2- Not all charge ports are the same! Good luck finding a charge station that plugs into your vehicles port! Fact #3- They use dozens of very heavy, very expensive batteries! Good luck with that $6k-$8k bill when you have to replace a few of those batteries that do not seem to last very long! Fact #4-Electric cars are much heavier than conventional gas vehicles, so its j
@DT both Wawa and Sheetz seem to be rolling out the superchargers at least, but that’s mainly an Ohio and east aid.
Waiting for the Kwik Trips of the midwest to get on board.
Buc-ees here in TX has rolled out Tesla Super chargers. Shell also has gotten in the game but seems to be mostly fleet focused right now. It’s nice to see actual transportation hubs near highways getting in on it vs. “How far in town is the Whole Foods?” approach.
Follow Pilot.Flying J progress on this…
Several of the newest Sheetz here in SW Va have both Superchargers and another, different, type. -Just my drive-by observation as my work van gets filled at commercial fleet stations, and I use a top-tier station near my house for the fun cars
I love locomotion of all forms. I love the freedom it represents. In middle school I built mini bikes and go carts from scrounged parts, and minimal purchases. From grade school on I always had a job, and daily read the classifieds ( very pre-internet ) to find a deal. By 15 I had two 69 Dodge Chargers and a 71 Karmann-Ghia convertible, all in need of work. By my 16th birthday I had rebuilt the Ghia ( new top, new floor and rockers, coil overs, monza exhaust, rebuilt the calibers) and drove it as much as possible. I am pro EV in theory only. Acknowledge that battery/electric motor most efficient means, and who doesn’t like instant torque? What bothers me is the overall trend to turn All new vehicles into data collectors, and operationally software dependent. This represents loss of freedom, loss of ownership, and added distraction from what i love. I will never purchase a connected vehicle.
Well said and I couldnt agree more… BTW, I too was a go-kart/mini bike/motor bike builder/rider/racer when I was a kid. I started around age 10. I loved those Briggs 12-15hp roto-tiller motors best, they slapped right on, bolted it, hooked up a chain and ah-weee I went! Got chased many morning, afternoons and evenings by NYPD cops looking to bust a kid doing at least 50mph down side streets out here on Staten Island. They never could catch me, and my old man who was an NYPD cop never even knew about it! Used to hide my kiddie rides out in the old man next doors garage, he was a very understanding great old guy who also loved racing and was far more enthusiastic than my folks ever were! lol. Got my first car at age 14 back in ’82, a ’71 Ford Montego that had 313+k orig miles and had sat for 6 years. By the time I hit age 16 it was finally all done snd road ready and that .302 Boss block she came with just tore it up! Got the car for “free” too! lol
> What bothers me is the overall trend to turn All new vehicles into data collectors, and operationally software dependent.
That’s separate from the topic of EVs though. Lots and lots of ICE cars are data centers on wheels.
This is one of the reasons I have a conversion of a classic car, a Triumph GT6.
It’s completely offline, minimal electronics(my Soliton 1 controller is the most complicated part of the entire vehicle, and is programmed with an offline web browser via laptop and Ethernet cable), and my battery pack itself is “dumb” to the point that it doesn’t even need a BMS(large format CALB LiFePO4 batteries as a single series string).
EVs can be extremely simple and reliable, and also repairable with basic tools. The auto industry does not built them that way. If they did, the potential for a “forever car” would exist.
The manufacturers really need to get the salesman educated as well, or at least offer proper info about owning an EV.
I’m happy that I could illustrate the general public’s lack of knowledge regarding EVs through my rambling comment.
Thank you for this prestigious award. I aspire to earn it again some day, hopefully with a comment that is insightful and intelligent rather than one that simply demonstrates my own ignorance.
As I am fond of saying to my young employees: “ignorance can be cured; stupidity, not so much”. There’s a big difference between admitting one’s ignorance with a willingness to study and learn, and flaunting one’s ignorance while promoting ridiculous viewpoints based on a deliberate refusal to gain a deeper understanding of the subject at hand. I’ll happily spend all day teaching people who simply don’t know but are willing to learn. I have no patience with deliberate fools.
I love that attitude, and I will be stealing that saying!
“You can’t educate lead into gold.”
Nothing a lick of gold paint can’t fix.
In modern times, it has been discovered that lead can in fact be turned into gold, but not through alchemy, and only in insignificant amounts. Nuclear transmutation involves the use of a particle accelerator to change one element into another.Jan 11, 2022
Transforming Lead into Gold: Alchemy & Transmutation – Study.com
study.com
https://study.com › academy › lesson › transforming-lea..
I think it’s also worth noting that there is a TON of misinformation out there about EVs – both of the type that targets leaded gasoline enthusiasts and of the type that targets suburban moms who are into wellness and donating money to African orphans.
So, not an ad but worth knowing that GM will put a chipper live person on video to show any given random around an EV platform and answer their “Hey, dumb question but” EV questions. https://evlive.gm.com/live
I am so grateful to Duke for his well thought out questions and comments. And thanks to the readers that pointed out how a simple 220 connection is what most commuters need. I knew 220 worked, but I didn’t know how well. An EV sceptic is now willing to listen. Manufacturers would be wise to talk about 220 more.
My feeling is that EVs are in “The Chasm” right now. Geoffery Moore wrote on how products need to transition from appealing to people that want the latest things to people who want complete solutions and convenience. It’s a continual product challenge, and good products have failed to figure out how to appeal to mass audiences all the time.
I fully expect EVs as a category WILL figure it out given enough time (and money), but I also expect that there will be some interesting collateral damage along the way. In the meantime, an industry that was quickly trying to build all the cars that the innovators and early adopters could buy is starting to run out of innovators and early adopters. Solving those problems – knowledge, finances, infrastructure – will go a long way helping the industry transition into appealing to mainstream audiences.
Agree, and I think that dovetails into why automakers are currently deep in the trend of ‘reinventing the wheel’ (electric door handles, open the glovebox only through the touchscreen, flavor-of-the-week shifter designs) to appeal to those early adopters with “tech”, when the buyers they really should be chasing now just want an electric Corolla, as another commenter so aptly put it. I predict a rapid (and costly) product refresh life cycle for these cars that are trying to be the first mainstream EVs.
Honestly, this is a huge problem I have right now with basically every EV. They’re all full of the touch-sensitive crap that seems cool but is terrible to actually use in the context of a car. There are a lot of reasons I’d go PHEV over full EV right now, but the fact that you can get PHEVs that are cars instead of rolling Apple Stores is a big one.
I have to agree with the Duke. I’m not in need of a new car yet (always looking) and can play the waiting game with the best of them. I don’t drive much (work from home, thanks Covid) and my wife’s car is more comfortable for longer distances. I haven’t done the homework on electric cars or home infrastructure requirements either. Very interested, and watching closely how it all plays out.
Much like the Duke of Kent, I was/still am “interested”. And, like David, I picked up a used i3 a couple of years ago (for less than $20K). These are my observations:
Home charging remains the biggest hurdle, especially if you don’t own a single-family home. Buying a charger and having an electrician install it can easily top $2k, and can get more expensive, quickly, if you have to replace your circuit breaker panel and/or run wire a significant distance, to the new equipment. (But once you have it, it’s way cheaper and easier than having to gas up.)Purchase prices (high), depreciation (rapid), and technological obsolescence (also rapid) all conspire against buying new; leasing may be the better option, especially with the current Federal tax credits. Unfortunately, most manufacturers seem to be avoiding the sub $40K market, and the high MSRPs translate to higher insurance rates, even with used EVs.On the flip side, used EVs tend to be both pretty affordable and often come with relatively low miles, and are probably the best way to “try them on for size”).Some states tax EVs with an annual flat tax (to make up for the fuel taxes not collected at the pump) which, in many cases, ends up being far higher, on a per-mile basis, than the fuel tax, especially if one drives low miles.Unless you have a Tesla, road trips take some serious pre-planning and, often, luck, to find operable public chargers and no waiting.If you live with winters, the reduced range (in cold weather) can be an added hurdle.As with any vehicle, any EV will come with its quirks and challenges. Some will be covered by the warranty, and some won’t.Finally, it takes a while to get comfortable with the vehicle’s actual range and the “guess-o-meter”. Unlike a fuel gauge (that’s pretty linear), vehicle speed and driving style can have variable, non-linear impacts, on the predicted remaining range, over relatively short distances.
For me, the i3 has been a great second car. We still have our ICE vehicle for road trips, but when it comes time to replace it, a newer EV or a plug-in PHEV will be definitely under consideration. There’s a huge difference between 100-mile range (older i3) and 300+ miles (newer EVs).
We test drove an i3 and loved it, but even the 120Ah just doesn’t cut it for rang for us, since we live in a small town 80 miles from the airport and fly to see family a few times a year. If it were just the cost of getting a Lyft it would be one thing, but there is also the stress of even getting one. We decided something like a used Hyundai Kona Electric since those aren’t appreciably more expensive and have 260 miles of range(200ish on the Highway).