Happy 5th of July, America! For those of you unlucky enough to live elsewhere, please excuse us for choosing to incinerate small portions of our great land instead of, you know, blogging yesterday. But it’s ok, we’ve got some great news, America’s Strategic Jeep Renegade Supply is coming back down to normal. Hooray!
We’re getting sales reports in from various places and so I thought it would be a good time to review where the car market stands. Things appear to improving for consumers, with inventory going up, but it’s going to depend dramatically on what cars you want. Plus, bad times for startup EV automakers continue.
Now Seems Like A Great Time To Buy A Jeep
Stellantis (the artist formerly known as Fiat Chrysler) reported quarterly U.S. sales up by 6% year-over-year in the second quarter, with Dodge up 37% (thanks, Hornet!). Here are some of the highlights:
“We saw increased demand this quarter as market conditions continue to improve and our dealer network makes the necessary adjustments to drive sales growth across our brand portfolios,” said U.S. Head of Sales Jeff Kommor. “The Jeep® Wrangler 4xe recorded its best quarter to date and retains its ranking as the best-selling plug-in hybrid in the U.S., with the Grand Cherokee 4xe at No. 2 and the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid at No. 4.”
The company is building basically zero electric cars in the United States at the moment but sells three out of the four most popular plug-in hybrids. And the deals are good.
Check that invoice out above. That’s a brand new $62,000 Wrangler 4XE, on lease, for no money down and a $460 a month payment (thanks in part to federal EV credits). That’s a good deal. I wrote last week that you shouldn’t expect car prices everywhere to suddenly implode, with the caveat that certain automakers with inventory will have better offers as the summer selling season begins.
Jeep is clearly one of those brands. I previously wrote about the huge supply of Renegade crossovers on dealer lots, which reflected both the stable production of the vehicle and the general lack of desirability. That number, which came from online car sales assistance service Car Edge, takes the amount of Renegades they find for sale and the total sold in the last 45 days and determines supply.
Would you believe there are more Jeep Renegades for sale? The good news, for Jeep at least, is that sales more than doubled recently, which means the supply is down. How’d they do that? Car Edge CEO Zach Shefska said they’ve seen “lots of support to get them moving” with dealer discounts up to 9% off of MSRP on the Renegade. They’ve also seen a $4,500 in capitalized cost reduction (i.e. an upfront discount) on a lease of one through lender Ally Financial.
But here’s the flipside of this:
There’s plenty of stuff that’s still in high demand and low supply. The Kia Telluride is one of those vehicles I feel like everyone owns but no one can buy. There are a lot of CR-Vs on the market but, guess what, everyone wants CR-Vs. And the Maverick? Ugh. Amazingly, this is an improvement for the little Ford truck we dearly love. Remember, folks, there’s no new normal in the car market.
Car Sales Are Up Almost Everywhere
Fleet sales are back. Inventory is (slowly) coming back. Interest rates are up, but people clearly want to get back into the market and seem to be able to stomach them. What does this mean? Carmakers are starting to report big sales.
The year-over-year monthly sales, in particular, are absurd:
Acura: +83.3%
Honda: +54.0%
Genesis: +33.2%
Mazda: +96.9%
Those are some random brands, but it shows that things are improving when Mazda is up big. On a quarterly basis, even brands like Infiniti are seeing increases (56.5% quarter-over-quarter).
The only brands that aren’t selling that have reported quarterly sales are ones like Jeep (-2.9%), Alfa (-25.0%), and Fiat (-42.2%). In a way, it’s kind of amazing people are buying Fiats at all.
It’s Not A Great Time To Be An EV Startup
Patrick has a great post from earlier this year asking: Who will survive the EV Startup Wars? There was a bleak report from Reuters on Monday that walks through the reasons why both British vanmaker Arrival SA and American truckmaker Nikola Corp might not make it to the next round.
Arrival, first:
Arrival had in April bet that the second reverse merger would release $283 million of cash held in trust before redemptions. In early 2021, the company had merged with CIIG Merger Corp.
The EV startup in May reported a 37% slump in cash and cash equivalent at the end of the first three months of the year, from the preceding quarter.
The startup warned in November it would run out of cash before the end of 2023. The company has cut staff almost 75% to 750 employees in a bid to conserve cash.
Not great, though the company still has 10,000 orders from UPS. What about Nikola? It’s in the process of liquidating the assets of Romeo Power, the EV battery maker it just bought. And those companies are not alone, resident bleeding heart Patrick George has a piece on the Lordstown troubles in The New Republic:
These issues weren’t helped by the fact that the Endurance itself was riddled with production problems. The vehicle was theoretically aimed at commercial work-truck buyers, but its value proposition became even more unclear as more electric trucks from real car companies like Ford and GM started entering the market. And commercial or not, it always seemed to lack the hype and engineering cachet of other E.V. newcomers. Its range of just 174 miles put it in the bottom tier of modern E.V.s, and critics balked at its $65,000 price tag. The savior of Ohio’s automotive sector just didn’t seem all that up to the job.
I drove by the Foxconn/Lordstown facility this week en route to Chicago and it didn’t seem like a particularly active place.
Ex-Employees Call VinFast’s Vehicle Development ‘Frightening’
If you’re going to read one thing from Britain today, read Alex Goy’s review of the 2024 Aston Martin DB12. If you read two things today, read this deep dive from The Financial Times about VinFast. Obviously, we tried the company’s debut U.S. model and it broke during the test drive, so our expectations are low. But multiple former VinFast folks say speed is taking priority over anything else, and that’s why we’re seeing the issues we are.
Most of the FT piece delves into CEO Le Thi Thu Thuy’s plan for VinFast and the company’s dramatic shift into electric vehicles. It talks about the company’s challenges in launching an IPO in a difficult overall capital market.
The reporters also talked to three former employees, and, well:
Three former employees who worked in product testing, engineering or homologation on an earlier model said they saw instances of what they considered to be insufficient safety or durability testing to shave time from a vehicle’s development. Another former employee, who has worked at a number of carmakers, said the speed of vehicle development was “frightening”.
VinFast denies the allegations, but it conforms with most of the experiences reviewers seem to have had with the vehicles.
Your Turn
We know a lot of you have said you’re holding off on a new car purchase for now, and we certainly can’t blame you given how weird and expensive this market is. What would it take to change your mind and get back into the market like all those happy Acura buyers?
OH GOD NO. EVERYBODY PANIC!
For some reason, they’re still making fucking Jeep Renegades! Dear gods, won’t anybody think of the bolts that could go in something decent?
Look. This has almost nothing to do with supply. And everything to do with building a car people genuinely want. Nobody is buying G70’s or G80’s, forget G90’s. I have seen a total of one G70 on the road in the past 3 months.
But GV60’s, GV70’s? They’re popping up everywhere. They’re even popping up in actual colors! Granted, the GV’s are some of the best looking, best styled cars you can get. But the market has spoken, even if the market is wrong and dumb. And the market wants more pseudo-SUVs.
And yes, that’s true for Mazda too. They aren’t selling twice as many Miatas. They aren’t selling Mazda3’s (hell, the dealers locally won’t even stock those willingly.) It’s CX5’s, CX50’s, CX9’s, CX90’s. And it doesn’t hurt that the CX9 is Jeep Renegade priced. (Somebody please for the love of god make FCAtlantis stop!)
There were only ever TWO people when it came to EV startups: Mr. Conman and Mr. Bagholder.
Mr. Conman has long ago pulled the cord his platinum-core gold-plated parachute. All that is left, is Mr. Bagholder. And hey guess what? Thanks to rampant, blatant, flagrant corruption? Mr. Bagholder is pseudonymous for Mr./Mrs./Ms./Mx. Taxpayer.
Virtually none of these startups were ever intended to do anything other than siphon cash from the government teat. Going back years. Go look up Bright IDEA; LSC bought their ‘prototype’ delivery van. It was from day one all show, zero go. I loved how the electric motor bracket wasn’t ever fit for purpose. And the entire thing was folded and dumped when they didn’t get a $280M zero interest loan from the government. Their entire ‘business plan’ was “unrealistic market sales of a not yet extant product wholly dependent on a quarter billion dollar zero interest loan.”
And the very, very, very few (the grand sum of two) that have actual products they actually ship on actual timelines with actual realistic targets? There is only Mr. Cashed-Out and Mr. Bagholder. It’s the dot-bomb rinse-repeat cycle; raise a shitload of money, and cash the fuck out as high as you can and as quickly as possible.
Illustrating the effects of regulatory capture and deliberately sabotaged government, yet again. This is the point where any competent regulator in the NHTSA’s position would be calling up these former employees, discreetly acquiring random samples to test, demanding company records (they must produce for NHTSA, no subpoena required,) and mulling a stop-delivery order if they found anything suspicious.
What do we get? Crickets. Oh well! Gotta move fast and break stuff, even if that stuff is likely to include human beings!
I’m in the market, not at all by choice. But I’m holding off to see what’s going on with the WL’s, not for any other particular reason. There are several oft-reported issues going on, that frankly, shouldn’t be. Especially since the WL’s entire driveline is, in fact, unchanged from the WK2.
Same 3.6/5.7 engines. Same 850RE or ZF 8HP70. Same transfer cases. Same axles.
Accidentally installing rear coil springs incorrectly, that’s no big deal really. Someone aligned the machine wrong, check the springs, rotate if necessary, it happens. Overtorqued nuts on a few thousand intermediate shafts, with a clear pre-failure warning, also just part of cars at scale. Tools break on the line. They’re building nearly a quarter million of them a year; a broken torque-limiter on the line can screw up a thousand plus cars a day.
What is NOT okay is the other TSBs and informal bulletins. And they are not small things. TSB 08-081-23; GPS stops working? Yeah, no, the SGW’s defective and your keys are about to be bricked. NHTSA 1023679, power window switches sticking on or just not working. NHTSA 10236803, “for humming, droning, moaning, or grinding, verify not coming from transfer case or rear driveshaft carrier bearing.” Uh, hold up, on a ’23 you have more of those failures than you have loose non-critical heatshield bolts? Which also has a confidential NVH-BSR advisory attached? Failing hood switches? Intake HLA failures? An official procedure for clearing excessive condensation in rear tail lamps specific to MY22-23? OTA update S26.18 sometimes bricking everything on the CANbus?
What the fuck, FCAtlantis?
The Renegade is probably dirt cheap to build. Shove it onto lots and convince people it’s just like a Wrangler at half the cost.
Well duh it’s cheap as shit to build.
It’s quite literally been completely unchanged since 2014. So the tooling costs got amortized probably by 2018. The platform dates to 2012 and covers the 500L, 500X, Neon, Compass, Commander, Tonale, and Rampage.
Except it’s not half the cost of the Wrangler. Per jeep.com, the Renegade “starts” at $28,345 and the Wrangler “starts” at $31,195. Sure, you’ll never ever find either at those bullshit prices. But that’s what FCAtlantis says.
I do think there was a significant amount of honest self deception with the EV startups – for some reason people believed that a few hundred million $ could get you to break even, which unless your name is Fisker and you have friends at Magna Styr, is a completely ridiculous assumption. What the first successful EV startup illustrated is that it is not hundreds of millions of dollars needed to start a successful car company but somewhere between $5 to $10 Billion depending on how spendthrift you are. At this point even the Wall Street Analysts who don’t have cars and couldn’t change a tire if you gave them a floorjack, pneumatic gun and a video, should be able to do the financial math to figure this out, yet somehow they keep throwing good money after bad hoping that somehow this one is different and doesn’t need billions – it really doesn’t make much sense…
> Nobody is buying G70’s or G80’s, forget G90’s. I have seen a total of one G70 on the road in the past 3 months.
Maybe where you live, but in Ontario and northern California they’re thick on the ground.
I’ve never been IN the market. 45 years old and I’ve never bought a new car. I considered it when younger, but definitely not now with these prices. If I won the lottery, sure, I have a list. Otherwise, I’m sticking to used. My last used car purchase (2013 4Runner) was 6 years old when I bought it and still a little north of 20K. My next purchase is going to be much less than that.
I’m trying to put money away on a house, spending $$$ on a vehicle just seems incredibly frivolous at the point.
It’s absolutely bonkers to me that the avg new vehicle price is higher than the avg income. Our economy would collapse if people made smart financial decisions.
What would it take? Someone buying it for me. Nothing out there really meets my wants better than our present cars. Our current cars (Cruze Eco and RAV4) meet our needs just fine. I’m refreshing the suspension and steering wear components on both this summer. That should hold us over until an EV comes along that my partner feels comfortable with us splashing out on.
On an aside, student loan payments resume this fall. According to Forbes, 43 million people owe student loans with an average of $393 a month. That’s approximately $16.9 billion dollars a month getting sucked out of the economy starting this fall. That is likely going to negatively impact car demand, especially among family vehicles. Because guess what, a lot of student loan borrowers have kids and are wanting roomier vehicles to tote loin spawn and associated accouterments. Wait until December and the holiday sales will be nuts. But, anyone have a good crow pie recipe if I’m wrong?
I hope your version of the impact to the economy is more accurate than my best guess. I expect vehicle repos to go crazy. That may finally bring down used vehicle prices!
I put down a $500 deposit to get a new Sienna. It arrived, and after some contemplation I just could not stomach the $48000 price tag.
The dealer, who sold the car instantly to the next person in line, was kind enough to keep my deposit. Asshole. (I mean, it was technically nonrefundable but I figured they’d want to maintain some goodwill with a local.)
Nah, now he can afford to outfit his car with that Clearshield that he sells all his customers!
If it was a credit card, dispute it. Especially if there’s ambiguous language in the deposit language.
Toyota dealerships are slimy as hell. You’d think it would catch up to them by now but their reputation is so bullet proof at this point that people would rather debase themselves and pay huge markups than consider another brand.
Would it be worth it to me? Probably not, but I also dealt with multiple Hyundai dealerships trying to get an N…and although I somehow wound up at the one good one in my area to seal the deal I had to go through all sorts of hell to get to that point, so I don’t have much room to talk. I left one dealership feeling like I needed to take a shower for fuck’s sake.
I’m convinced all regular people car brands have horrendous dealerships. I think the decent experiences are behind the luxury paywall, although I did have one bad experience when I tried to buy a BMW a few years ago and recently had to work overtime to keep an Audi dealership from ripping my mom off with run of the mill sales scumbag intimidation tactics, so I’m not even sure if that’s the case anymore. I think they all just hate having to deal with people who know their shit, since we’re harder to rip off. I know more about what I’m looking at than any salesperson does that’s for damn sure.
You know what? All dealerships are bad. Manufacturers should all switch to direct sales and cut these cretins out of the equation altogether.
That’s nothing new. I think you and I are about the same age but that was a huge part of the appeal of Saturn and the no haggle pricing – a regular car that you could buy without feeling you had to take a shower after. And same when Lexus etc. hit the market, even if most of the lineup was just a fancy [regular brand], it was a nicer experience to buy and service the car.
I think the Internet and online review sites helped improve that since there was a public-facing image to maintain now and not just CSI scores. But that’s probably caught up now since it’s a new norm.
That said, I don’t think manufacturers particularly want to have direct sales at least with the current volume sales model. They’re selling cars like crazy, they don’t really want to deal with 50 different title and registration laws or your trade on top of all that.
You should have taken delivery and then flipped it.
No shit. I am dumb.
Just looked at the lease ‘deals’ on a Wrangler 4xe in Canada. The interest rate is 10.6% for a 60 month lease. The cost of credit is more than the depreciation.
I think I’ll be holding on to our cars until something catastrophic happens.
“What would it take to change your mind and get back into the market?”
Right now not much. My 2020 Navigator has a factory warranty for at least two more years, and the new ones are crazy expensive. New ones have some nice features added but not enough to trade in my (fortunately very reliable one) in.
My wife’s 2016 BMW 335i GT has been just exceptional – reliable and was long ago paid for. Again, nothing in the new cars is enough to make me want to trade in – maybe at some point an i4 might work for her, if I can convince her that an EV can do what she needs it to do. Who knows until the charging situation is worked out.
Stuff I think might be cool – Rivian and Lucid, but until I can test drive one I would not be interested.
So I guess that I’m not helping the economy any time soon…
That’s a good question. I really, really like my current vehicle and bought it less than a year before the pandemic, so it has very low mileage for its age and is in great shape.
Even if I suddenly needed a replacement (knock on wood, etc.), I would probably just get a newer version of it.
What would it take to get me into the car buying mood? Mo’ money, mo’ money, mo’ money.
So what you’re saying is you want mo’ problems.
I’ll take mo’ problems that come with the money to solve some problems.
If they updated the criteria for “market day supply”, they would find some vehicles in the negative numbers. The Toyota dealer near me is still selling vehicles that are “scheduled for production”. As soon as they get their allocation, they call the next person on the list and do the deal.
I have a 2016 Tacoma TRD OR 6MT that I bought new. It’s been paid off since 2019, and I have heard the siren song of a new pickup. Instead, I’ve been putting in ~$2k a year in upgrades, including OME suspension, a winch, skid plates, and an iKamper RTT.
As much as dropping prices are calling to me, I am having a hard time stomaching going back to having payments and losing the capability I’ve put into my truck.
Easy: Discovering that my wife’s Chevy has a blown head gasket. It has been breaking in small-but-annoying ways for awhile now, and we finally have a large enough repair pending that I can insist that I’m not fixing it this time and it needs to go away.
It’s tough for me to decide what I want and how much I want it. I get a supplier discount with GM and Stellantis, but I rarely want what they offer. The Grand Cherokee 4xe could be a hell of a deal, but I don’t really have enough room in my garage to park it there, and I don’t know about wiring up a charger out at the street or running an extension cord out to it. I drove one and like it, but I don’t know as it’s worth it to me.
(Also, the lease deal is a lot better than the finance deal, but I’m wary of the potential residual value that I don’t see listed anywhere.)
I also would love a Maverick or the new hybrid Tacoma, but cost/benefit analysis is always a stretch.
I don’t know much about the Wrangler 4xe, but there’s a Willys in the color I’d want that is probably an absolute steal near enough to me. With my trade-in and no other money, I’m looking at a 15k mile/yr, 4 year lease for $145/month according to their calculator.
I don’t want a Wrangler. Do I?
I give normies a lot of shit for buying way more car than they need/buying off-road capable stuff then proceeding to suffer through all of its drawbacks while never taking advantage of its capability….but let the enthusiast who’s never been tempted by a Wrangler cast the first stone.
They just ooze coolness….and how many proper 4 door convertibles that you can carry 4 adults in comfortably even exist? It’s pretty much the Wrangler, the Bronco, and nothing else. Even if you never plan on taking advantage of the capability that’s a serious plus as is and you can still get them in manual as well.
Would it be a pain to live with daily? Absolutely. But hey…for certain applications there’s nothing better.
Every summer I get horny for a jeep. I would never put the doors or roof on, it would be so freaking fun. I’m reminded of a tasteless moped joke.
I just spent a week on the Outer Banks and probably 1/4 of the cars there were Jeeps and Broncos in various states of undress (doors, roofs, etc) and every single time I drove my black on black hot hatch past one I was reminded of the fact that the people in those cars were having more fun than I was.
…do I want to commute in one in DC on these shit tastic roads? Absolutely not. But driving around in one on summer weekends with the doors and top off riding around shirtless blasting Ratt? That’s gonna get a HELL YEAH BROTHER from me.
Well, the nice thing about commuting in vehicles like that on shit-tastic roads is that they don’t care. I drive a 4Runner – close enough to those – and it simply does not care what the road surface is like. Potholes, broken pavement, road construction, speed humps, raised manhole covers; whatever, I do not need to swerve or slow down. Also, random junk on the roadway is much less of a concern.
Therein lies the rub. I’d have to daily it. In fact, I’d be replacing my car and my pickup (selling the pickup would pay for most or all of the lease payments or a chunk of the buyout, which would be a bonus).
But, yeah, the allure of a Wrangler is very real. Given I don’t need the better 4WD, I think the Willys would be the one for me. Shoot. Am I going to do this?
If anyone wants to talk me into/out of this, here’s what I see as pros and cons:
Pros:
Good deal
Convertible
Plenty of space
Plenty of power
Accessories
Appearance
Cons:
Ride comfort
Road noise
Fuel efficiency
Not doing real offroad stuff
Expensive accessories are tempting
Heating/cooling (I live in a place with seasons, so it gets pretty hot and fairly cold)
4xe has too many doors for a proper Jeep
Won’t fit in my garage
No vented seats (could probably fix with aftermarket)
i get the contempt for driving such a capable vehicle in a pedestrian manner, but what other vehicles are there out there that can tick the boxes of convertible, 4WD/AWD and manual transmission and can seat 4 minimum in the same price range? you’re gonna sacrifice at least one of those 4 boxes to fit inside the same price range.
for me, I’m going to be moving from a 500 Abarth to a wrangler next year, and will likely not use the off-road prowess beyond tow paths and trailhead access. i work remotely, so i put less than 5,000 miles per year, and i like the idea of having a vehicle that can handle all my requirements and the only downsides are mpg ( again i drive so little that it’s not a big deal) and the stigma of being a suburban mall crawler ( the time when spent my own money on other people’s perceptions rather than my own enjoyment are long past).
Nah. Enthusiast here, you couldn’t catch me dead in a jeep. If I was in the back of a Stellantis hearse I’d probably come back to life just enough to get out of that POS.
None of my enthusiast friends care about Jeeps either. We’re the type who likes cars that don’t fail catastrophically at the drop of a hat.
I’ve got the Grand 4xe. The manual says not to use an extension cord, but I think thats more due to them not wanting to be liable when someone uses a 16 gauge cord and it melts. I’ve got mine on a 10 foot 10/3 extension cord to get out of my garage to the Jeep. Just make sure you buy a good one if you do it.
Yeah, pretty sure all the plug-ins have that warning because they figure anyone using an extension cord is probably going to cheap out and/or not take care of it. Which is probably fair, since we’ve all seen some jank out there.
The Grand Cherokee 4xe’s are selling at an average – AVERAGE! – of over 15% off MSRP as an opener. They’re too fucking expensive for anyone not giving up things like food and electricity at this point.
The lease deals aren’t. If you want a preview of depreciation, just look at the market. Used 4xe’s are everywhere – mix of demos and buyer’s remorse, with basically no miles on them.
Locally a ’22 4xe Overland with 3,800 miles is asking $57k. Not a base. An Overland. With ProTech III and Luxury IV. Sticker was $75k. Summit Reserve with damn every single option ticked except High Altitude including the two-tone, front passenger display, ProTech IV, and Luxury V? Sticker $83k, 5k miles asking $62k all-in and still sitting unsold for 6 months. If you’re paying anything over $58k on a Summit Reserve, you’re getting ripped off.
Not only that, but AFAIK, FCAtlantis is copying Ford and everyone else with their extremely anti-consumer closed-ended leases with an absolute no-buyout clause.
Why on earth would you pay 80k for a goddamn Cherokee 4XE? You can get an X5 50e at that point and it’s so much better in every way that it’s not even funny. Gas engine? B58 brother, better than anything Stellantis has. Electric motor? More power and more range. Interior? Have you been in a current BMW? The exterior styling critiques are absolutely valid but the interiors are ridiculously nice places to be.
Or…get one of the Volvo PHEVs that are arguably the best in the entire industry right now. I think at a fat discount or on one of these comically cheap leases a 4XE Cherokee probably isn’t a bad buy, but for at or OVER MSRP? You’re shooting yourself directly in the dick. More than once.
The Wrangler PHEV leases with 0 down are really tempting though, unless I’m missing the fine print. It looks like they all run between $430 and $500 a month or so. That’s a lot of car for what essentially amounts to what the payments on a well equipped Civic would be. Who cares if they take it back at the end…there will be a PHEV with twice the range by then anyway.
The Grand Cherokee 4xe base with luxury package is the place to be. MSRP is 60k and they’re putting money on the hood (because it’s not competitive at 60k, but still). You can’t get one at the same lease deal as the Wrangler, but you can get fairly close if you’re careful.
But the Wrangler truly is the 4xe deal right now, and I had no idea until I was messing with the supplier pricing stuff and just looked at things I didn’t even think I wanted.
4xe base luxury here. 12k miles a year $0 down $539/mo.
I really wanted the Trailhawk but it was over $800 a month. Instead I slapped a set of better tires on the base. Stock tires went in my shed and will go back on for lease return.
Everywhere I look, it seems they are one of the financers still listed as offering buyouts with no significant restrictions, which is why I’m willing to consider a lease if the deal is right. If I go for it, though, I’ll certainly be weighing a lot of options. Used, new, lease, finance, various brands, just keeping my two current vehicles, etc.
Admittedly, I find the fuel efficiency on them to be disappointing, especially given the high price, but I put on a lot of my miles locally, so I should be on electric a lot.
My cross-shopping is bizarre, though. I’m looking at the Jeep PHEVs, the Ford Maverick, the upcoming hybrid Tacoma, and some EVs. I’m open to a lot of options, so I’m just waiting for the right thing to come along. I regret skipping an invoice price Maverick order in the first round, but I’ve otherwise been okay with skipping every new car I’ve cancelled on (Tucson and Sportage PHEVs are the two most recent). I’m willing to walk away if the deals aren’t there.
The no buyout lease is only with Stellantis Financial. The old CCA does not have the restrictive clause.
Fwiw the pachybrid we talked through leasing in May had a buyout option. Or the dealer was lying to me. Was nowhere near as cheap a month as the example in the article though.
Even if I won the lottery, there’s nothing on the market we can use. Our 3 gassers (roomy 4WD wagon, compact 6′ bed pickup, HD longbed pickup) each fit a specific role, and there’s no EV or hybrid replacement for any of them.
This is the thing, right? If I won the lottery I’d probably buy a Maverick, just because I could. I’d be way more likely to buy a new car for my parents.
“What would it take to change your mind and get back into the market like all those happy Acura buyers?”
Why do you think they’re happy?
What would it take to make ME happy to get back in the market?
“car prices everywhere to suddenly implode”
That would be a good start.
They’re getting stylish, reliable luxury cars that undercut the German competition on price and longevity. And now with the Type S name revived? They’re mighty appealing.
Wait, a company called “VinFast” is making cars ridiculously fast?
Kind of makes sense, doesn’t it?
It really seems like the sort of shady place that can assign your home-built or stolen car a “legit” VIN quickly. Or a place that does title loans: “Turn your car’s VIN into cash fast with VINFast!”
Also reminds me of that skeezy VinWiki dude
They should slow down and make a VIN Diesel.
Regarding a new car purchase, I’m still in wait and see mode. Availability of the vehicle that I want has improved, and I’ve started to notice a rebound in inventory on dealer lots. I’m not expecting prices to go back to 2019 levels, but there’s been a notable increase in both incentives and financing deals within the last year on a lot of volume models. I’ve easily got 50K+ drama free miles left in my current daily, so I’m perfectly fine waiting out the manufacturers (or at least saving up a bigger down payment to mitigate the sticker shock and high interest rates). All the signs point towards things continuing to improve for buyers though, unless you’re dead set on a specific “hot” vehicle like a Telluride or Maverick. Not necessarily a “buyer’s market,” but better than they’ve been in a while.
460 a month for a $60,000 4XE is a ridiculously good deal. That’s essentially what my payment on my $37,000 Kona N is, although I round it all the way up to $600 because I wanted 3 or 4 year financing on it but had to do 5 to get their 2.75% APR, which is essentially the new 0 at this point. With the average payment approaching 4 figures in this hell world we currently live in, $460 is hard to argue with, and I’m usually against leasing.
There is 0 need for my wife and I to enter the market anytime soon. My car has all of 8,000 miles on it and the wife’s 2015 CRV is in the 60s and is well maintained. The only reason we’d wind up looking is to replace her car, but it’s about to be paid off and she doesn’t want to look at anything new unless we need more space, which we won’t until kids are in the picture.
I personally have no interest in looking until prices and interest rates cool off either way. I’m not financing a $60,000 car at 5% interest even though I could. As I’ve said a few times, the new Integra Type S has begun to speak to me and my wife loves it too, but I bought a new car that I didn’t need a little over a year ago. I’m not even considering moving on from it unless something goes wrong or it’s fully paid of.
Plus Hyundais depreciate like lead balloons anyway. It’s so bad that my payments on my car and the depreciation are neck and neck right now. Eventually the payments will outpace it, but right now KBB says my car is worth TWELVE THOUSAND LESS on trade than I paid for it. Fucking yikes. The equity I have in it won’t go far enough for a fat downpayment right now anyway. Eventually it’s going to hit a bottom and the equity will get better.
But right now? Helllll no. The Ns are depreciating just like any other Hyundai. I think eventually the enthusiast market will show more interest in Veloster and Kona Ns since each has been discontinued, but right now? No one wants either. Despite all the good press the Ns have gotten it’s not enough to outweigh Kia/Hyundai’s reputation, especially considering the fact that so many can STILL be stolen with a damn screwdriver and USB cable. The market doesn’t care that it only affects the basest of base models.
Wait wait
$37k for a Kona?
Why?!
It’s the full N model with the ridiculous powertrain and all the go fast goodies
Still waiting for my perfect electric road trip car. 200 real miles in fifteen minutes or less of fast charging, less than 50k (tax credits allowed), not owned by musk melon, and cargo capacity for three people and a dog (damnit Hyundai, why’d you put such a tiny trunk on the ioniq 6? I was ready to throw my whole wallet at you).
I know that’s a lot of money to spend, I’ve been living (and driving) reasonably for decades. I’m ready for a car I really want. But why does it also not feel like enough?
I don’t like Musk’s nutty statements but no way I’m buying a car from Hyundai when they employ child workers in their US supply chain. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-immigration-hyundai/
Don’t worry, Republicans are rolling back child labor laws & protections so it’s ok now. /s/
Yeah it’s hilarious how people will take issue with something stupid Musk said on Twitter, but they’re fine buying a Hyundai with the child labour thing, cutting corners with vehicle security and other issues that are far more serious than merely saying something stupid on Twitter.
See my comment above, but specifically: yeah, because musk doesn’t cut corners on his cars or on safety
I don’t take his attempts to shape what people are allowed to say lightly. Nor will I deny some of musk’s crap has a personal side for me. However, I’d honestly forgotten Hyundai was in the child labor list. Seriously, you’d better not buy anything from Tyson Foods, Kraft, or (yes) Nestle, who between them own basically everything you eat.
Not that I’m down playing it- that’s probably enough to push me to another company.
Man, Stellantis had better add an extra shift at Melfi, that inventory situation is worryingly tight, in another year, they might have only a half a year’s supply left, and then what?
Bravo.
The only way I’m back in the market anytime soon is if the van I bought ends up being a piece of crap, and I decide to move on before the warranty is up.
If that was the case, I could be swayed with a new van that was <=35k out the door. I don’t need much for equipment. Need a paint color though, will not buy a gray van. That’s really it. I don’t feel like I’m asking for a lot here.
I’m surprised the CR-V is on there but not the RAV4, feel like those are perpetually in demand while CR-Vs seem to be more on the ground. But then at least in my region, Honda supply has been inconsistent whereas Toyota you know it’s a hurry up and wait deal.
Actually surprised to see the Integra on there too, because those seem plentiful at a number of dealers and I see a good number of them driving around. A coworker just picked one up too this weekend.
I know it gets a lot of heat for the Integra name and I don’t want this comment to be the one that picks that debate back up, but taken just as a vehicle in the Honda/Acura orbit, I get why people would choose it. Seems easier to find than some Accords, ticks the leather/roof/premium sound boxes for less than an Accord, leases better than an equivalent Civic or an Accord (probably biggest reason). Yeah, the Accord has the benefit of the hybrid, but that’s more Honda forcing it.
At the end of its run you could pick up an ILX for less than an Accord EX-L too, but the ILX was based off a couple generation old Civic by that point; the current Civic is a much better base.
As far as what I would buy, not sure. A smaller/midsize truck has been speaking to me, but not so much the $40k entry price for most midlevel trims. I don’t really need a truck as of yet, just tending to think I will want more space than I currently have before long. A 6MT 2024 Tacoma holds a certain appeal and would feel unique to me relative to most other trucks, and I know that’ll be hard to find, but we’ll see on pricing. In the meantime, I will sit with my paid-off car with remaining factory warranty and try to not think about my out-of-warranty-VW anxieties.
The Accord is a bigger car than the Integra, so it isn’t exactly apples to apples.
Right, and I don’t mean it as a 1:1 comparison. But most buyers looking for space are going crossover anyway, rather than big sedan, and the Integra’s interior volume puts it above compact size too so we’re not talking a small car either – it’s bigger than the Accords up to the 5th gen. As a second car or daily, both vehicles do the job pretty similarly.
Current RAV4 has been around for 5 years already, whereas the CR-V has been in production for 9 months. Simply fewer CR-Vs to be on the ground, and the latest generation was a big step up over a previous one.
As simple as that. New thing is new.
In a different time, sure. Like I said, seems like more CR-Vs are on the ground in my area. From what I’ve heard from dealers, deliveries of new Hondas have been erratic. Most Toyota dealers I know have been pre-selling as much as they can, and we’re not talking about an average-selling car with the RAV4, Toyota sells more of those than the Camry.
Also note the Corolla and Highlander on that list – both of which are several years old themselves. Civic is newer, Pilot is also all-new design and should theoretically be more limited in supply than those then.
Sell me a renegage trailhawk for $17500 and I would buy it tomorrow. The prices for what they are are just too high.
Honestly nothing. I’ve dealt with way too many electrical gremlins in my relatively short life, I’m just going pure mechanical diesel power from now on, it’s either that or give up on owning motorized transport. Mechanical things I understand, electricity is just spicy magic to me, and batteries fail me too often.
Thanks to the original supply story here and my truck being in the shop for the last three weeks (and counting) I’ve been eyeing a new gladiator, my nearest dealer has about 6, all with between 6k and 8k off MSRP, very tempting, but still a huge expense, I keep going back and forth.
Car makers seem less and less interested in selling what I like to buy; accordingly I’m less and less interested in buying what they have to sell.
I expect many of us will say something similar, but what’s funny is how different “what we want” is, we just agree that the current crop isn’t it.
I couldn’t agree more. Bigger, more expensive, harder to fix, disposable. These are not the features I’m interested in.
Exactly my point. None of your complaints make my top 5:
-Large naturally aspirated engines are disappearing
-Coupes are disappearing
-Electrification is becoming mandatory
-Ugly styling trends are becoming ubiquitous
-At-the-limit handling is being given priority over ride comfort everywhere, even in cars where that doesn’t make sense (The BMW effect).
But we can agree to be grumpy old guys yelling at clouds together!
Car makers are forcing people to change their purchases because what the average buyer currently wants/needs isn’t profitable enough for them.
You will buy whatever they want you to buy.
I don’t think it’s that.
I think it’s:
1) enthusiast preferences not being aligned with normal people’s buying habits (which has always been true, but enthusiasts are perhaps a smaller fraction of the market than ever, which then becomes self-fulfilling) and
2) regulations being tougher than ever, of emissions forcing electrification before it’s ready, footprint and GVWR rules causing unintended consequences like large sedans giving way to trucks, and things like pedestrian safety driving ugly styling.
Other than car enthusiasts, I’ve never met a person who felt forced into buying something they didn’t want to, or felt that their choices were meaningfully constrained by manufacturer product offerings.
To me, your 1) gets to the heart of it, though I also see it this way:
In the past, enthusiast preferences informed cars for everyone. But those preferences were rooted in how enthusiasts actually used cars most of the time in the real world, so the end result was sporty/fun available for a fair amount of cars on offer.
Now, “enthusiast” means largely theoretical performance at the limit metrics like how fast the car will go on a racetrack with a professional driver at the wheel. Turns out people seem to like being able to buy bragging rights, not the chance to have fun behind the wheel themselves.
It’s interesting you bring that up, because I think we still live with the legacy of enthusiast/performance marketing, which is why things like midsize CUVs come with performance packages, 20″ wheels to clear giant brakes, V-rated summer tires, etc. Probably hit the peak of this with “grounded to the ground” Camry ads.
That kind of thing I think stems from enthusiasts going into car journalism, which then informs their reviews, and leads to a feedback loop where Suburbans and Expeditions are judged more on their skidpad performance than their towing performance.
In some sense, it’s a better time than ever to be an enthusiast, in others, its completely lost the point.
That’s an intriguing point – perhaps the internet’s expansion of auto journo opportunities has increased that loop’s density, which helps it crowd out other worldviews.
I think it’s a manifestation of our current fetish-ization of extremes as fewer of us engage in whatever activity.
To go with a less-controversial example…fitness. A wide variety of people used to be generally if not outrageously active. But that’s been replaced by a very small group of extremely active people and a much larger group that’s not active at all. So accoutrements of the extreme group like high-tech performance attire become seen as irreplaceably necessary for fitness activities, when really, just putting on old sweatpants and a t-shirt will work just fine for most of us.
..also see the “S” in ‘SUV’
because when I think ‘Sport’, a Ford Explorer automatically pops into my mind, or a dinky Bronco ‘Sport’ 🙂
Regarding 1, it’s not even about enthusiasts anymore. The average person almost certainly would rather have the choices that were available 10-15 years ago. Those are gone in favor of deliberate consolidation of choices and elimination of models that sell well but aren’t as profitable to make.
I would say Ford tried to do it by limiting Maverick production in an effort to push people into an F-150. It was only when people were willing to accept a significant wait for one did they announce they “didn’t predict the overwhelming demand.” Whether they admit it or not, it was almost certainly an attempt at bait/switch.
I would say Stellantis is trying to do it by axing the Charger and Challenger line in favor of the Hornet, as well as increasing the prices on Jeeps, and blocking the Rampage from being released here.
On what, other than vibes, do you base this? The average person wants a reliable CUV with lots of space and low running costs. There are more of those now than ever.
I would certainly not extrapolate the supply crunch of 2021-22 to be the new normal. I don’t think it’s some conspiracy to make sure no one can buy a Maverick. I think Ford and others correctly prioritized chips and components for their more profitable vehicles. If there is still a lengthy wait for Mavericks a year or two from now when all initial orders are cleared out, I may change my tune. But it makes no sense to invest billions in an entirely new model if you don’t actually want anyone to buy it!
This is because selling cheap V8s is being made artificially impossible by government. Basically my point #2. Also people want crossovers, not sedans and coupes.
Ford admitted in 2018 that it killed the Taurus, Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion because trucks and CUVs were cheaper to make and can sell for more.
The Camry sold almost 300k units last year, per KBB. If you remove trucks, because KBB includes commercial sales, it was the second-most popular vehicle after the RAV-4.
US automakers will push people into CUVs with incentives and artificial supply constraints and then use those sales figures to justify shifts in production.
That is true, but it’s not what you said earlier. You seem to believe that there’s pent-up demand for sedans somewhere that is purposely and nefariously being restrained, and that normal people are out there bemoaning their lack of options in the segment. The average person doesn’t want a sedan! CUVs were on the upswing at sedans’ expense long before the latter were discontinued. Arguably many of them held on too long. Look at segment-wide sales, not merely the Camry. Ford’s decision was consumer-driven and utterly rational. If people were buying Fusions and Focuses, they would have gladly kept on building and selling them.
People like bigger vehicles, they like higher seating positions, and they like AWD. Trends in that direction are decades-long, and even the companies that still make sedans realize it. There isn’t some conspiracy to restrict choices; to the contrary there are more individual models for sale now across the industry than ever before.
Yeah, this isn’t some enormous conspiracy. People drove minivans and SUVs for years as the family hauler, they got used to certain attributes. 15-20 years ago, manufacturers tried to tweak sedans to stave off some of the shift to SUVs. Rooflines were taller or more rounded, the seating positions higher, more space in back or the trunk. The Ford Five Hundred was the most obvious attempt, but Camrys and Accords of the era had the same effects going on.
People bought the SUVs anyway, and so OEMs reversed course a bit and over the last couple generations made the sedans lower and we’ve seen them tout how they made them sleeker. Is it possible people are buying less sedans because of that, sure, but I don’t think it’s making a significant impact either way.
I’m not sure if the Camry mention is supposed to illustrate that people are buying sedans still, because RAV4 sales surpassed Camry sales years ago and you know Toyota is very proud of having that best-selling car title for the Camry (and they put both models into fleets). Over the first half of 2023, they’ve sold 150k Camrys vs. 187k RAV4s as well.
Plus re: incentives, it’s hardly just US automakers, midsize sedans have virtually always had better incentives for as long as I can remember. Continuing Toyota as an example (both leases for LE trims):
2023 Camry: 2.75%/48 mos or $299/mo lease for 36 months
2023 RAV4: 2.9%/36 mos or $319/mo lease for 36 months
I’m with you too on the Maverick…”we didn’t forecast demand properly” seems like a PR line, I think they allocated more parts to vehicles like the Bronco Sport which shares its platform with the Maverick but starts what, $8-9k? And Ford’s been selling more Bronco Sports than they have Escapes. Ford definitely didn’t think they were going to move people into an F150 though. Ranger maybe.
There is something to be said for manufactured demand, and the trend toward larger SUVs and pickups comes from both the EPA efficiency requirements and the feedback loop of needing something bigger to protect from or see over the larger vehicle sharing the road with you. Advertising plays a role, too, though the connection between advertising and popular culture gets really blurry with product placement and the like, and it’s hard to say whether pop culture reflects consumer desire, which then is massaged advertising or if it informs consumer desire. Either way, people don’t simply want what they need or know why they want things.
While it’s not fair to say that sedans were killed just because SUVs and pickups are more profitable, it’s also not completely accurate to chalk it up to manufacturers following consumer trends. It, like most things, was/is caused by a number of factors.
The death of the minivan, though, is almost entirely due to the cultural shift of fragile masculinity (which has been a factor in the above). There’s little reason manufacturers needed/wanted to shift except for pop culture and stigmas attached to the minivan. They perform well in crash tests and would not be prohibitively expensive to make (sadly, because of lower sales numbers, manufacturing scale is such as to make them expensive, which lowers sales…), but the demand just isn’t there outside of Autopians, and I think it’s fair to say that we aren’t even a notable demographic for car manufacturers to consider, much less a majority.
While this is well-reasoned, I’m not sure I completely buy it.
You can still buy sedans in every size, with various powertrains, features, etc from almost every manufacturer today. Ford is notable for being an exception, but I’d venture to say that if a normal non-enthusiast wants a sedan, they could still buy something that fits the bill pretty well from someone.
But the trend basically ever since the car was invented has been for Americans to buy the largest vehicle for the money. With the only real exceptions being fuel crises in the mid 1970s and early 2010s. Once gas prices normalize, vehicles get larger again. So if the American consumer is being led into the CUV, it’s merely the latest step in a century plus of marketing. More likely IMO, it’s simply a long-standing preference once again being expressed after oil prices came down in 2014-15. But either way, it’s not a recent thing, and it’s not a conspiracy.
Honestly, the marketing has always pushed people toward bigger=better. The big boats of yore advertised smoother rides and comfort. When SUVs started making the scene, we started seeing the push for taller (both for visibility and capability, and, later, because you don’t want a bumper through the windshield), and the efficiency regs started making them all wider regardless of consumer desire.
Like I said, there are a lot of factors. Anyone who points to one single factor is likely right about that cause, but not seeing the other factors at play. All modern markets are complex, and automotive is no exception.
I’ve been saying for a while that the other half of that bait and switch is going to be “surprising” everyone with an ICE variant of the new Challenger/Charger. Do I think it’ll have 3 V8 options? No way. Do I think it will have a Hurricane straight 6 option behind a sizable paywall? You bet.
and the press will eat it up, instead of asking why it needed to go away in the first place.
A Hurrican PHEV would clean up to the point where they’d be Soviet-like waiting lists at every dealer
They haven’t so much as hinted they are making one and I’m already about to go tell dealers to put my name on the list.
There’s a bunch of stuff out there on the straight 6 finding its way into the next gen Charger/Challenger. Apparently it’s a great powertrain-Savagegeese said it feels like Stellantis benchmarked the B58 which is the correct 6 cylinder to benchmark. That I’m sure will happen…whether or not it’ll include some sort of hybridization is anyone’s guess however.
Yeah, the straight six is pretty obviously going into some things. You don’t make that to throw away all the development that went into it. The PHEV would be amazing, though. And a realistic possibility.
Heck, I’m even a little tempted by the Hornet PHEV (if they actually ever make it available), and that’s not nearly as cool.
I want to like the Hornet because it looks cool and clearly I understand the practicality that a lifted hot hatch offers, but I can’t get over the reliability aspect of an Italian product being sold by Stellantis as a Dodge. There’s just too much that can go wrong there IMHO, and they’ve already had some reliability issues on the review circuit.
Slash there’s no real reason to consider ditching my Kona N for one other than all wheel drive. My car is faster, more engaging, and is nearly half paid off. I know that Hyundai doesn’t exactly have a sterling reliability reputation but over 8,000 miles mine has been completely issue free. I don’t see why I’d ditch my hot hatch for a different one unless it’s significantly better.
I personally don’t think the Hornet is…but the Integra Type S? Hmmmmmm
The Hornet PHEV would be a significantly more engaging version of my PHEV Niro…which isn’t likely quite enough for me to buy one, but it is enough for me to look at it. But you are right that it isn’t necessarily anything to get really excited about, especially over your N.
I would buy a Charger PHEV without thinking twice. I’m one of those rare weirdos that actually likes the Charger/Challenger in V8 trims, but between the ancient bones, abysmal fuel economy, and dudebro image they give off I don’t think I could ever own one…and the wife hates muscle cars across the board. She thinks they’re too shouty, too impractical, and that they attract the wrong sort drivers.
She’s…not wrong. Obviously I find them appealing due to the performance per dollar ratios they offer and I won’t lie, I do feel like a boss driving down the road with a big honkin V8 in front of me. A PHEV version would be a middle ground card that I could absolutely play. To be honest I was disappointed when Ford scrapped the hybrid plans for the S650. I am one of the like…7-8 people they appealed too, but I’m also the weirdo who thinks the Mustang SVO and HPP Ecoboost are appealing…
Those are supposed to be coming.
I also agree. Everything is too big, even compacts. They’re also more money than I want to spend.
I’m hoping my Fit lasts for at least another 15 years or more.