Dealers Are Fighting Back Against The FTC’s Anti-Junk Fee Rule

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Enjoying a car is a wonderful experience, but buying a car can be hours of pulling hair and putting your feet down that you absolutely don’t want whatever overpriced, unnecessary tat a dealer could be trying to force on you. While the FTC was supposed to make this easier, America’s car dealers are attempting to fight back using the legal system. No consideration for optics, I suppose.

In addition, Ford is reportedly cutting a massive bulk of F-150 Lightning assembly jobs, and the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N is surprisingly quick down that one funny toll road in Germany. Welcome to The Morning Dump, your morning automotive news round-up with a name Lil Wayne’s lyricism might appreciate.

Dealer Associations Are Stalling Anti-Junk Fee Rules

Saturn Dealership

Remember the Federal Trade Commission’s CARS (Combating Auto Retail Scams) rule that was touted to end scummy upcharges at dealerships? Well, it was supposed to go into effect on July 30, but now it’s anyone’s guess. To delay the effective date of this rule, the National Automobile Dealers Association and the Texas Automobile Dealers Association have filed a Petition For Review in the Fifth Court of Appeals, under the grounds that the CARS rule is “arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, without observance of procedure required by law, or otherwise not in accordance with law.” Lol, lmao even.

When was the last time you stepped foot into a financing and insurance office without wanting to go full Dan Campbell on the F&I guy’s kneecaps? Dealers developed a bad reputation for junk fees for a reason — attempting to upcharge customers is nearly universal due to the pay structure at most dealerships. Most salespeople are paid on commission and unless dealing high-end, new car commission rates are fairly small. However, stuff like rubberized undercoating of dubious effectiveness and questionable third-party service contracts are highly lucrative, and many salespeople are paid commissions on those. Junk fees are the system working as intended, so any change at many dealers will be like pulling teeth. In any case, there are a few ways this battle could play out. Ideally, the CARS act will hold and its introduction will only be delayed by a few months. However, lobbyists have money, so you never know.

Ford To Cut Two-Thirds of F-150 Lightning Jobs

F150 Lightning Rouge Plant

While electric vehicle sales are expected to increase as time goes on, the short-term outlook is looking rocky for some manufacturers. Automotive News reports that 1,400 Ford F-150 Lightning assembly line workers will either retire or be shuffled to other plants as demand for the electric pickup truck wanes. The Rouge Electric Vehicle Plant will soon be a single-shift facility. The big winner in all of this? Traditional combustion-powered SUVs and pickup trucks. As per Automotive News:

Ford said 700 people, or roughly half the affected workers, will transfer to the nearby Michigan Assembly Plant, where it’s adding a third crew to increase production of the Bronco SUV and Ranger pickup. Those 700 will join 900 additional hires for a total of 1,600 workers on the new third crew.

Unsurprisingly, demand is still strong for new Broncos, and I can’t blame anyone for desiring a capable convertible SUV with far better highway manners than a Jeep Wrangler. It’s a compelling product without much direct competition, while the F-150 Lightning has competitors coming at it from all fronts. The Rivian R1T and, technically, the Tesla Cybertruck are being delivered to customers now, and trucks like the Chevrolet Silverado EV and Ram 1500 REV aren’t that far down the road.

One Fast Hyundai

The 641-horsepower Hyundai Ioniq 5 N is one of the more compelling performance EVs on the horizon, and it just laid down a number sure to spark even more intrigue. German outlet Sport Auto took a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N and racing driver Christian Gebhardt to the Green Hell, where the combination clocked a lap time of 7:45.59. That makes the Ioniq 5 N faster around the Nürburgring Nordschleife than a Porsche 718 Cayman S. Not bad for a family crossover. Astonishingly, the Hyundai’s time was only 3.2 seconds slower than Porsche’s own lap time in a Taycan Turbo, and it’s fair to say that thing isn’t a slouch.

Thermal management is a challenge for any car attempting a flat-out lap of the Nordschleife, and it’s a massive problem for electric vehicles. Clearly, Hyundai’s focus on performance is working, as this oversized hatchback is shaping up to be an electric giant slayer. As you’ve probably guessed, I’m eager to have a crack at it.

What I’m Listening To While Writing This

I’m frequently a fan of off-kilter genre-hopping stuff. After all, the concept of genre was torched by the blogosphere before being dipped and liquid nitrogen and shattered with the hammer of streaming, so why confine yourself to one sound? On 2023’s High School Football, Massachusetts duo Brevin Kim eschewed their hyperpop-esque beginnings in favor of a sound that blends folksy guitar with electronic gleam and two scoops of autotune. By all accounts, it shouldn’t work, but sometimes the vibes are just impeccable. I had “I’ll Be Damned” blaring on my first drive after buying my Boxster, and as January’s well and truly set in, I’m yearning for the weather to warm up, the snow to melt, and the top to drop.

The Big Question

Is the electric truck market about to become oversaturated? With a raft of competitors cropping up and the possibility of slim Venn diagram overlap between truck enthusiasts and EV enthusiasts, not to mention the politicization of green vehicles, does anyone get the sense that some manufacturers are wading into a short-term quagmire?

(Photo credits: yonkershonda licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0, Ford, Google Streetview)

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138 thoughts on “Dealers Are Fighting Back Against The FTC’s Anti-Junk Fee Rule”

  1. I think the most mind boggling part of this entire article is that Ford had the ability to make more Bronco’s and they’re just now getting around to it. What’s the wait for a Bronco these days, 2 years?

  2. Selfish take: I don’t ever fall for the junk fees, so if they make them illegal, is the price I pay as an educated consumer going to go up because the dealers aren’t making as much money on the un-educated consumers?

    Realistic take: If they make the junk fees illegal, dealers will just find a new way to make obscene profits on some other questionable practice.

    1. This is the same approach I have about overdraft fees, credit card interest, etc.

      I don’t pay those fees, so others who do subsidize the benefits I receive from my bank/credit card company.

        1. This is partly true. But banks are good at grabbing every nickle they can so their credit card transaction fees are only one prong of how they extract the nickles.

    2. The fees are so that they can advertise a lower price up-front then add fees later. Even if you end up walking over the fees and going someplace with a higher advertised price and no fees, they’ve wasted enough of your time that you probably would have been better off without them existing.

      The dealers will make the same amount of money either way, at least more or less, but if nobody’s allowed to sneak in fees they at least have to advertise something closer to the real price and compete based on that.

  3. If Ford wants to sell more Lightnings, all they have to do is engineer a small range extender ICE unit to take the place of the frunk luggage area, and they are golden.

  4. I feel like the wave of EV trucks is lining up perfectly with the bro-ification of EV’s, so there will be no shortage of demand, but the market is fat with choice, so it’s good branding, but there’s a lot of competition.

    1. I think we’re in the same spot as with compact cars in the mid 1950s, there’s a lot of demand, which has pushed companies to all pile in with their models, but the demand still isn’t quite high enough or growing quite fast enough, to sustain everybody right now.

      1. In the 50s they were all scrambling to put out their own version of a Rambler. So does that make Tesla the Rambler of today?

        (This has been Deep Thoughts)

  5. “Unsurprisingly, demand is still strong for new Broncos, and I can’t blame anyone for desiring a capable convertible SUV with far better highway manners than a Jeep Wrangler. It’s a compelling product without much direct competition, while the F-150 Lightning has competitors coming at it from all fronts. The Rivian R1T and, technically, the Tesla Cybertruck are being delivered to customers now, and trucks like the Chevrolet Silverado EV and Ram 1500 REV aren’t that far down the road.”

    The real competitor for the Lightning is the regular F-150. In my area F-150 crew cabs can be had for just under $40,000, while I am seeing Lightenings start at just under $50,000. People are not willing to pay that $10,000 premium that I am guessing is a true reflection of material costs.

    Both the ICE and electric versions are horrible for the environment. But good luck killing them since pickups are the only thing that can keep Ford, GM, and Stellantis viable when they have to deal with UAW labor costs and work rules.

      1. Republicans don’t like regulation in general but the reason Democrats don’t push back on big stupid trucks (and actively encourage them with things like a tax credit on electric trucks up to $80,000 even though electric cars are capped at $55,000) is the UAW.

          1. They are wrong on the first one and going against national will because they are scared of getting primaried. On the second one that’s not necessarily true, big business loves dirt cheap labor to undermine the local labor, but on the second one it is Democrats going against the national will because they are scared of getting primaried.

          3. The far right is like the kennel club: as long as you have the right colour, religion and ancestry you should be fine.
            Inbreeding also helps them, it seems.

          4. I know I’m late to the party, but…

            Republicans would win a lot more elections if they stick w/ most everything else & get out of peoples bedrooms. 80% of the country are fine w/ or at least accepting of, abortions through the first trimester. Virtually no one except the most rabidly left actually like the Democrat version of legal to the date of delivery, but they vote Democrat to vote against the hard line Republicans.

            1. “Republicans would win a lot more elections if they stick w/ most everything else & get out of peoples bedrooms”
              
              Yeah but then they would lose a lot of support from a big portion of their support base which are the Christian Jesus Freak Nutjobs.

              1. I don’t actually believe that the “every abortion is murder” crowd is as big as their outsized influence on the Republican Party would have you believe. Besides, where else are they gonna go? The Democrats certainly aren’t catering to them. The “Moral Majority” have ruined politics.

                1. “I don’t actually believe that the “every abortion is murder” crowd is as big as their outsized influence on the Republican Party would have you believe.”

                  And yet here we are with Roe V Wade overturned due to the Republicans stacking the court with “conservative” religious freak judges. So given that, I’d say that crowd has a pretty big fucking influence over the party.

                  “Besides, where else are they gonna go?”

                  These days? Anywhere except a Republican candidate in my view. The only way to get the GOP to move away from the freakshow they currently are is to stop voting for them and stop giving them cash.

    2. “Both the ICE and electric versions are horrible for the environment.”

      Except that the ICE ones are MUCH MORE HORRIBLE over the life of the vehicle… from an emissions standpoint.

        1. It’s arguably a bigger problem in the UK where our roads aren’t built for it and the weather is rapidly becoming a nightmare for 70s roads designed for a more predictable climate. A two tonne SUV does sixteen times the damage to the road surface than my Miata, and you get St John and Joquasta in their Range Rover whingeing constantly about the potholes. No shit the roads are getting worse when two tonne vehicles and more are the norm and we have named storms every two weeks! Tax hard on weight and emissions and I bet the buggers would buy a 7 series over a Rangie.

        2. A vehicle that isn’t driven much will merely have a longer life on average. So there will still be a huge emissions difference over the life of the vehicle.

          Plus with ICE vehicles, even if you don’t drive them much, you still have to do stuff like oil changes at least once per year. And there is an emissions component to making, distributing and disposing of those extra consumables.

  6. I don’t think the FTC is going to be enforcing anything after SCOTUS knocks down Chevron. Say goodbye to functioning regulations and consumer protection.

  7. Of course I’m excited for the Ioniq 5 N. One of the things that the N folks do exceedingly well for the price point is infuse character and engagement. There’s a very distinct driving style to the cars. To be fair, some of it you either love or hate (rough ride, loud farty exhausts, etc.) but they’re incredibly unique products that are tailor made for enthusiasts.

    For all of Hyundais flaws (and there are many…) they’re one of the only manufacturers left that’s actually listening to what enthusiasts want and delivering it. They’re also track capable out of the box and Hyundai’s warranty for them actually covers track use. If you want something fun and practical that won’t break the bank I’d encourage you to check the Ns out. Just let someone else take the depreciation hit first 😉

    That being said, I’m unsure of how easily what makes their ICE cars such a hoot will translate to an EV, and the fake sounds/DCT schtick definitely rubs me the wrong way. The Ioniq 5 N will also be ridiculously heavy and the comparatively (I know Toecutter, nothing is light enough) low weight of the ICE N’s is part of what makes them so engaging. They’re very tossable and you can drive them similarly to “momentum” cars like a Miata if you want.

    The price is also a big yikes. $70,000 for a Hyundai is nucking futs, and unfortunately you can get some ridiculously good ICE performance options at that price. I mean…that’s CT4V BW, M2, ZL1, 718, used Hellcat, Dark Horse, IS500, RS3, C8, etc. money. I personally couldn’t imagine choosing it over any of those, and I’m not sure that the market could either.

    It’s easy to sell factory hot rod versions of normal cars in the 30s. The 70s are a very different ball game, especially for an offering that doesn’t come with any badge prestige. As good as this might be I don’t think they’ll have an easy time selling, and they might have to roll out some lease and discount specials to move them.

    Anyway, can’t wait til the reviews come out and I’ll certainly be keeping my eye on them. Once the Korean car/EV depreciation combo breaker hits and you can get one for Golf R money it’ll become a lot more enticing.

    1. The simulated engine noise and “shift points” in that video was driving me nucking futs. It looks like a fun little ride otherwise except for that pricetag.

    2. ^ This, all of this. It’s kind of why I’m hoping for an Ioniq 5/6 N-Line. The EV motors are powerful enough, just give me some of the N’s styling cues and thermal management. That’d probably be enough.

  8. Dealer Associations Are Stalling Anti-Junk Fee Rules


    But…but the dealers told me they exist to protect me from the manufacturers preying upon the consumer! Does that mean junk fees are in my best interest after all? The government also tells me their responsibility is to protect citizens like me from bad actors and unscrupulous business practices. Oh dear, who am I to believe?!

  10. An acquaintance’s dad is incredibly right-wing, yet somehow very conservation focused, and is interested in getting an EV truck eventually.

    There is overlap on those circles somehow, but yeah, others have already expressed the need for (for example) pull-through EV chargers for when you’re towing.

    1. “An acquaintance’s dad is incredibly right-wing, yet somehow very conservation focused, and is interested in getting an EV truck eventually”

      Don’t tell me, let me guess:

      He’s a hunter.

        1. I disagree too. People float. If Florida goes under where do you think Florida man will go? He’s coming to live with YOU and bad news, he’s bringing his alligators.

          1. When I lived in Houston, I woke up one morning to make my bleary-eyed one hour commute, and heard something under the car. Got out to look, and an eight foot gator was on his belly staring at my ankles. Apparently the local neighborhood pond was less inviting after some minor flooding, and he decided my carport was the way to go. We eventually shewed him out, but I was late for work. Gators are the real deal.

      3. ….had to go and verify. Yes, he is. But also does stuff like raise monarch butterflies, build birdhouses for native birds, and cull invasive birds.

        “His conservation mindset is more so from a place where he likes the environment and animals and wants to preserve them beyond just for hunting purposes—but he doesn’t think the government should tell him what to do”

        …at any rate, didn’t want to get too into the weeds here. My only point is that, limited a market it may be, there is a market for EV trucks.

        2. “Yes, he is…

          …and cull invasive birds”

          So now we know what he hunts.

          “he doesn’t think the government should tell him what to do”

          Hopefully that attitude doesn’t extend to running red lights, stop signs and blowing off speed limits. Or to driving on whatever side of the road happens to be open.

          “there is a market for EV trucks”

          No doubt. At least of the PHEV and EVREX variety, ideally designed to provide both plenty of power and heat to a freezing cold, blacked out home from a big ass tank of gasoline or even better set up to run on whatever fuel is available, whether it be gasoline, ethanol, propane, or muni natural gas. Maybe even diesel.

  11. Ford Osborne Effected themselves. They said they’re working on a new, better EV F150. There’s zero point to buying one now since the new one is “not too far away”.

    Rivian markets themselves as an outdoor adventure rig and has the features to back that up. Its main competitor is the Gladiator. Those are both niche products. Heck, Rivian still has tens of thousands of Amazon vans to build. The trucks aren’t exactly first priority. The R2 line is still a few years off and limiting R1T production helps keep demand and resale high. Those Amazon vans are keeping their lights on.

      1. Unfortunately, I’m not in the correct tax bracket to be a Rivian buyer.

        My sister is. She bought one late last year. Its been in the shop more than on the driveway since she bought it

        1. what a bummer to hear, they are cool trucks. I have a friend with one but he’s more pissed about the paid-for features they canceled without giving him any kind of refund.

    2. Well the future Lightning is supposed to be more like an electric Santa Cruz or something, but since Ford marketing is run by labrador retrievers we can’t really know what to expect.

      1. The Busy Forks is also just.. not very competitive in terms of price and specs compared to Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, and Ford. And Chevy and Volvo now, for that matter.

  12. Traditional truck buyers are the wrong market for EVs. They buy vehicles based off the trucks capabilities and not what they actually need. The F150 lighting will work for the majority of truck buyers just as well as the Honda Ridgeline. However, because neither can tow 10,000 pounds on I-70 through the mountains in Colorado without stopping, they wont be considered.

    The few people I know with Lightnings love them. But they knew their truck needs before buying them.

    The Cybertruck and R1T aren’t going to traditional truck buyers.

  13. Ford is not interested in selling anything that’s not a massively marked up F-150 or Bronco. They’ll happily sell you a high trim monster battery Lightning I’m sure, but if you’re not willing to pony up 80k, forget it. I’ve never seen a normal Lightning available on a lot. This goes for the Maverick too.

    And here we have the dark side of dealers after a reasonably positive one yesterday. While my dealer experiences have been good (of late), this is the sort of shit that people hate dealers for. I’m pretty paranoid about not having the dealer soak me for a random extra $700 late in the process, and if I see it happen, I’m walking out and telling everyone willing to listen that the dealer is a scam artist.

    These are not the sorts of interactions people want to deal with when trying to buy a car.

  14. Ford had no problem filling order books before hiking the starting price by about $30%. Did they have to for business reasons? Probably. But it shows that the demand is there, but there’s a ceiling on the price.

    1. yeah, it would be more accurate to say Ford is seeing a drop in demand for really expensive EV trucks. Notice they never offered low APR or cash on the Pro.

  15. Dear Fifth District Court,

    We have built our businesses entirely reliant on an elaborate series of scams. All very legal and very cool. How can we, your Mom and Pop former NFL defensive tackle turned car dealer make a profit without being able to scam Grandparents? Please protect our business from government inferences forcing us to provide a valuable goods and services to make a profit.

    Your’s truly this time;
    National Automotive Charlatan Dealer Association

      1. Luckily, they won’t have to make that decision. Since the lighting site is reporting that the FTC took the cowards route and is backing off implementing the rule now. America once against proves that the only inalienable right, is to make a profit at the expense of the average citizen.

        1. This is not necessarily a bad choice, given the judicial landscape. As D-dub says, the 5th Circuit is likely to side with the plaintiffs and if this case makes it to the supreme court, they are also likely to agree. The bigger issue is that court cases like this are used primarily as skirmishes in what is now an all-out assault on the administrative state. So, not only will the dealers win, but the ability of the FTC to do any of the work that it does is likely to be curtailed. Cases like this going through the judiciary these days are likely to be catastrophic. Not only will supporters of progressive regulation and government oversight lose, but they will end up farther behind than when they started.

  16. I checked 3 dealerships near me for Lightnings. First dealership had 4 (3 of them were ~$80K). Second dealership had 1 for over $90K. Third dealership had none.
    I wonder why no one is buying the Lightning!

    2. I’m seeing Lightning Pros for $45k in Virginia. Closer to home they’re $50k to capture that sweet, sweet Albany nectar. A few have some discount off MSRP and some still have a markup. It’s like Ford dealers have no idea what they’re selling and most have zero interest in learning.

      1. Same, there a few Pros up here in Maine, you can dip under 40K after the state and fed rebates. I have talked to a few salespeople, they hate the Lightning because Ford loses money on all of them and I imagine they are just as irritated by the pricing shenanigans as the buyers.

    3. The paucity of affordable Lightnings on lots stems from a marketing decision based on the well known belief that Lightning seldom strikes twice in the same place.

  17. If they can’t do junk they’ll go on to sneaky up selling on models, like the Toyota salesman who tried to gaslight me into thinking I ordered an appearance package.

  18. I have a tough time figuring out the use case for full EV pickups if what you need/want/think-you-want is a full pickup for hauling and towing. Our infrastructure and charging times just aren’t where they need to be to make longer trips in an pure EV truck very enjoyable (and there’s no real cost savings for the kwh’s you pay at level-3 public charge stations over dino-fuel).

    Now if you’re only driving locally, and you have a place to charge at home (or a business) every night – then the EV truck makes sense as local vehicle – and I guess if you are a tradesman or a company with a fleet of local trucks and don’t plan on going far every day, EV trucks are a good bet, but that’s not the most profitable or the largest pickup market sub-segment or pickups in the US is it? It’s the luxo-trucks that are where the profits are.

    I do think RAM is onto something with their full sized pickup with range extender. I’ll be looking at something like that myself to compliment our EV in our stable in a year or two – as it really gives you the best of both worlds – battery juice for about 100 miles + dino fuel for longer trips and towing. My issues with the first RAM that will probably keep me from getting one:

    It’s a RAMIt’s freaking huge. Like HUGE – I don’t want/need a full sized truck.It’s freaking expensive (probably)The V6 wasn’t designed to power a generator – probably are better options
    My dream truck is a Maverick or Ranger-size pickup that’s got a plug-in full EV drivetrain combined with an on-board ICE range extender. I’d like it to be able to tow at least 5,000 lbs, have decent all battery range (100 miles is a good minimum) – and have a range extender/generator package designed specifically for that application (think liquid-piston, omega-one or even Mazda flying Dorito), all for about 1/2 the price of whatever RAM is going to do with the full sized truck

    It’s either that or the Mazda Iconic
    
    https://newsroom.mazda.com/en/publicity/release/2023/202310/231025a.html

    if they ever build it 🙂

    1. My issues with the first RAM that will probably keep me from getting one:

      It’s a RAM

      It’s freaking huge

      It’s freaking expensive (probably)

      The V6 wasn’t designed to power a generator – probably are better options

      RAM trucks, in spite of being a Stellantis product, somehow doesn’t suck. I’d definitely give it two to three years to work out the numerous bugs before I consider buying one. Size and price wise, it will be HUGE because it is a full size truck and manufacturers won’t be willing to lower the price. Finally, the V6 will be a variant of what they already have, thus they don’t need to invest in something new. The Pentastar isn’t a great engine, but maybe in this application where RPMs and run cycles can be controlled better, the engine will at least last longer than in current applications, if not at least produce decent efficiency.

      1. I hope your right – I had a RAM 4wd pickup years ago – didn’t drive it much and it was just ‘okay’. Perhaps with tuning the V6 will work out okay, but my main issue the going to be the size/price. I might be a little more partial for Ford simply because they’ve proven that can make a good small pickup (Maverick) for a great price.

        If RAM came out with a new Dakota-sized pickup with similar 100 mile battery range and 5,000 lbs towing I’d certainly give it serious consideration (though I wouldn’t opt for the first model year).

    2. I have zero interest in a truck, but from what I hear from people who do have them and would like an electric option, what you outline would be spot on. Since everything non-Jeep or HD has independent front suspension, seems like it wouldn’t be difficult to have a standard hybrid FWD setup that would give the ability to run electric only, or have the engine drive the front wheels or charge the battery, ~40 kWh battery (only about 2x the size of a lot of PHEVs), and rear e-axle, so you could have the ~100 mile EV range, 4wd, and have an engine backup for the 1-2 times a month additional range/towing is needed. Seems like it could be possible to drop gas usage by 80-90%, and not have a ton of added electrical parts.

      I would think plenty of the big automakers would already have the parts, and could just lego the thing together. The drivetrain from a prius/civic/accord/camry hybrid with the addition of the rear e axle seems like it would be plenty for even a full size truck, and for something smaller like you describe, dropping to a 2 or 3 cylinder engine would probably be fine.

    3. Re: the fleet option – maybe not profitable, but I imagine it works a volume play if you can grab a contract, government or otherwise, for x amount of trucks. Especially if it’s an organization that pledged to move away from ICE, which is liable to get rolled back or deemphasized too of course. The Monopoly money that currently makes up EV pricing on the consumer market is less of a factor then too if it’s a bulk contract and selected based on overall operating costs.

      Although Ford has the Pro, my recollection of the Lightning intro is they emphasized the consumer market more with the trims and offerings. By contrast the Silverado EV had a fleet-targeted WT featured pretty prominently, black bumpers and steelies and all. Seems like they might be hedging more of their bets on getting fleet buys eventually, if it ever gets here.

    4. use case for full EV pickups if what you need/want/think you want is a full pickup for hauling and towing

      Bold of you to assume that most fullsize pickups do such activities 🙂

      4. The V6 wasn’t designed to power a generator – probably are better options

      While the Pentastar V6 may not be a great engine for reliability, it will probably do fine as a power generator. Unlike a typical home backup generator that can be optimized to a narrow RPM range, I predict that the Ram REV will run it’s engine somewhat like a CVT where RPM changes significantly based on power demand. I’m not sure what a better engine for this application would be (especially since Stellantis lacks medium size engine options outside of the new Hurricane), since a high compression, Atkinson cycle N/A engine would yield the best thermal efficiency (such as the Toyota Dynamic Force engines in the Camry/RAV4 hybrids).

    5. The issue I take with the Ram “range extender” pickup is that a 300hp range extender engine is grossly oversized.

      The whole point of a range extender is to use a small generator, like a two cylinder BMW i3 generator. Like barely big enough to maintain speed on the interstate, which is under 50hp for almost all cars. Probably 50hp for a big Ram, or possibly 100-150hp with a big trailer.

      There is no way that a full electric drivetrain and a full gasoline drivetrain in the same pickup is better for the environment than putting one drivetrain in the pickup.

      1. I think the size of the truck and the weight of the battery require a large generator and power plant. I agree the old Pentastar V6 may not be optimum ( still like the idea of a next-gen rotatory as a generator) , but I guess the good news is that in most cases (local trips) the V6 won’t ever be needed. It’s just on those longer hauls / pulling a trailer where it will kick in, and then, probably only after the first 100 miles or so.

        1. You disagree with my numbers? That 300hp is way too much and that that pickup needs no more than 150hp?

          Rams that aren’t hybrid frequently use exactly that engine. The only scenario where it needs that much horsepower is if the electric motors are contributing actually nothing.

          Now think about what percentage of the overall horsepower a Pentastar Ram uses to maintain 80mph on the highway. 10%? 20%? Remember that a 60hp engine at WOT is significantly more efficient than a 300hp engine at 20% throttle.

          1. I don’t know the exact numbers as I don’t have any specs on the truck, but larger vehicle, larger battery, much larger potential payload and maybe crap aero would logically require a larger ICE/generator combo to both power the truck (under full load while towing) up and down an interstate at highway speeds than what might be considered for a smaller passenger vehicle that’s not towing a trailer. We’re talking apples to oranges here.

            The new ram is all electric drive, so the motor needs to power the generator to power the electric motors. Probably a lot of efficiency losses to make up for too (mechanical -> electrical .> back to mechanical) so I can see why a larger ICE is what’s under the hood. They want to truck to hit those magic max tow capacity numbers because that’s a metric they can sell (even if hardly anyone will use it).

            Still think an ICE engine designed from the ground up to spin a generator would be a better technical choice, but that’s a lot more expensive than just re-working an existing power plant like the pentastar.

            1. Of course the big pickup needs more horsepower to maintain speed than a regular passenger car. That’s why it needs a whole 50-100hp when a small car can take as little as 20hp.

              https://youtu.be/ftMxCehD08U?si=meNIfcl6kFD8z1xT

              You don’t seem to understand that a gasser v6 Ram has the same aero as a hybrid Ram, and if it took 300hp to push a Ram down the road at 70mph then a v6 Ram would have a top speed of 70mph flat out. Obviously a v6 Ram doesn’t need full throttle to maintain 70mph. Even with a trailer.

              There is some power loss involved in the generator and motors, but it’s actually not much more than normal transmission and driveshaft losses, maybe 20%. That’s why locomotives and haul trucks can use this system.

    6. I see people moving enormous pieces of dock, fishing traps, boats, etc using Ford Lightnings. Our fire chief drives a Lightning. Not everyone who tows stuff is going 600 miles. Not everyone who hauls stuff needs to charge during the day.

    8. The V6 wasn’t designed to power a generator – probably are better options

      Maybe so, but perfection is the enemy of good. The Pentastar has been around forever, they presumably have capacity to build as many of them as they need, and they likely have the expertise to make it work well enough for this application. Developing the ideal range extender might well have delayed the project for years and allowed someone else to beat them to the punch. As it is, it looks like they’ll release the first truly usable full-size plug-in truck. That’s a big win, even if it’s not perfect.

  19. >Dealer Associations Are Stalling Anti-Junk Fee Rules
    Of course they are. And of course they’re going through the Fifth Circuit. They’re stalling until SCOTUS kills the Chevron Deference and makes these kinds of regulations impossible to implement.
    But don’t worry, 89% of people had a good time when buying a car at their dealership, so obviously there’s nothing wrong with what they’re already doing.

    >Ford To Cut Two-Thirds of F-150 Lightning Jobs
    Ford is killing demand because they don’t want to make the Lightning in the first place. I have not seen a single ad for the F-150 Lightning in months. 3 Ford lots near me, none in stock. PLENTY OF 60K ICE F-150s THO.
    You can’t argue that the Cybertruck and Rivian are in the same category as the F-150. This was supposed to be a work truck that happened to be electric. That’s what the original ads portrayed it as.

    >Is the electric truck market about to become oversaturated? does anyone get the sense that some manufacturers are wading into a short-term quagmire?
    This is all smoke and mirrors from makers. They do not want to actually make these vehicles because the margins are too low. They trot out models to press fanfare, barely advertise them, stifle supply, then kill them off because “a lack of demand and sales”. Makers are more than happy to see EVs politicized because it plays into the lack of demand. They don’t want you to buy an EV. As we saw previously, they don’t want you to buy a Maverick either. They want you in the 60k truck and are more than willing to make it happen by hook or crook.

    Edits for formatting.

  20. does anyone get the sense that some manufacturers are wading into a short-term quagmire?

    Yes, absolutely. I’ll be extremely interested to see how the Ram PHEV fares, as that addresses (in theory) many of the concerns with towing or driving long distances with pure EV trucks.

    For cars, I think existing batteries are acceptable as long as recharging times drop to ~5-10 min and more stations are built. For trucks, I don’t think that’s enough, and we really would need to see a major improvement in battery density before truck owners would be comfortable taking the plunge. Even if the stops are 5 min each, a 50-100 mile range when towing is intolerable.

    1. But but but… the Ram PHEV while announced and planned has yet to come out. With how badly the big 3’s EV plans go it may not be available for few years. Plus its a Stellantis product that may either sit on lots unsold for years or never be on the road as always in the shop for recalls…

    2. Yeah, but to have more than a 50-100 mile range when towing heavyish in less than ideal conditions, you need a four bajillion kWh battery which represents more emissions on its own than 150k miles of burning gasoline.

      Im not sure we will ever have battery electric pickups that can both tow and are better than a gasoline powered pickup in any way.

  21. Maybe Ford isn’t making the profit off the EV trucks the bean counters/wall street wants them to? In any case, why don’t they shift production to the hybrid Maverick?

        2. Are you proposing the workers in Dearborn travel to Mexico and work the production lines there?

          Or that the Michigan plant somehow retool on the fly to build a second type of vehicle on the same line?

          I’m just struggling to understand what you think can be done.

          I assume Ford is building Mavericks as fast as they can already.

          2. Like Icouldntfindaclevername, I didn’t realize the Mav was a MX only sourced product. At one point I thought the hybrid version was going to be built in US.

            As far as what is possible, I’m not a manufacturing guru, but if something could be done to boost Mav production, while still being economically feasible, I don’t think that would be a bad thing.

            Maybe Ford is making the Mav as fast as they can or maybe only as fast as they want. Arguments could be made both ways, but at the end of the day, it seems like Ford could sell a lot more if they made more.

            1. The Bronco Sport is also produced in Mexico, starts $7-8k higher than a Maverick and tops out higher. For those reasons I could see them having the mix shifted to emphasize Bronco Sport production; but, that’s a strong seller too and both had similar sales increases last year.

  22. The average pickup truck buyer demographic seems like the least likely to accept full BEV. Plug-in would be a better option for most and easier to adopt. Rivian got it right by not going after the work truck crowd. More effort should have been put into making the Bronco hybrid/Plug-in sooner.

  23. I want there to be enough market that Rivian struggles through and makes more stuff. Then I want Rivian to purchase Alpha EVs designs and build the Alpha Wolf and the Ajax.

  24. I haven’t watched Seinfeld for years, but I found it impossible not to read “arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, without observance of procedure required by law, or otherwise not in accordance with law,” in anything but Jackie Chiles’s voice.

  25. Seems to me that Ford already answered your Big Questions. The Rivian and the F150 sold a combined 49k units last year. That’s…urrmm…not that many. Yet, apparently at the same time, too many.

    also: Go Lions! #OnePride #allGrit

    1. Heh. That’s way ahead of (for example) what the Prius v sold in the U.S. Best year was about 40,000. The total of them built was about 150,000 in the U.S./630,000 worldwide, all from 2011-2016.

      For being a new product, new niche, manufacturing challenges, etc. I don’t think 50,000 for single year is bad at all.

      But of course, this is a very back-of-the-envelope calculation.

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