When you’re young and still in grade school, or heck, even when you’re an adult, you will find yourself facing the question of what to do with your future. Where do you go? What will you do? When making a decision, don’t be afraid to consider a trade school. There are a lot of fun and gratifying careers out there that do not require dropping tons of funds at a typical university. Want to help build America? Become a welder! Want to fly a plane, drive a train, or fix cars? There are schools for all of that stuff!
One day, we might even write about you and how you’re one of the folks solving America’s EV infrastructure problems.
Today’s COTD winner is Shop-Teacher, a good friend and wise vocational teacher, who offers sage advice:
As a vocational teacher, my response to that headline is: No shit Sherlock! We also don’t have enough plumbers, enough carpenters, enough welders, enough machinists, enough sheet metal workers, enough mechanics … OH, BUT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE! And put a fucking mortgage worth of debt on your back that you can never get out of to do it, too.
I wish Shop-Teacher’s warning wasn’t so sadly true. I racked up about $50,000 in student loans to become an IT Systems Administrator (or that’s what my program said I’d become), just to spend years being miserable writing Java code for pay that couldn’t cover both the student loans and my living expenses. Now, I have years of IT learning and experience rattling around in my brain doing nothing.
My wife got it worse. She racked up over $200,000 in student loans and spent years going through the process to become an attorney. But the kind of law she does never brings in enough money to even begin paying that debt down. There’s no money in saving a poor person from an illegal eviction.
With that said, Drew offers a story that shows college isn’t always bad:
As someone who went to college, got a degree, entered the workforce, went back for grad school, then ended up in a job that would be better served by trade school, I don’t feel exactly betrayed by the push for college. A well-rounded education is good, and college provides a good chunk of that. I’d love to see college and trade school work in tandem (and not put either out of reach of anyone). And not just one way. You want a sociology degree? Cool, you still need a class or two of trade school pre-reqs. Becoming an electrician? Sure, and you’ll still need an English composition class and maybe something like a philosophy class. Formal logic is a good choice, but you can choose ethics or something if you prefer.
Having well-rounded people with technical skills supplemented by other education or whatever course of education supplemented by technical skills will help people understand each other and help students actually choose a path that works for them, whether a trade or whatever else.
(This, of course, could be colored by the fact that I work with a boiler technician who is fantastic at his job and also an accomplished translator of ancient Hebrew texts. He’s one of the best people I’ve ever worked with, and being well-rounded seems to be part of that.)
The good news is that you do learn some of the above in trade schools. At the trade school I went to, half of my classes had nothing to do with a future in IT work, but included things like History and English.
Have a great evening, everyone!
I found this stupid article on [Construct-Ed](https://construct-ed.com/millennials-still-dont-want-trades-heres-needs-happen/) about a supposed “skill shortage” when it’s really just a pay and respect shortage. Too bad I hadn’t seen this earlier because it’s quite relevant.
A bunch of people dunked on the author in the comments, but [this one](https://construct-ed.com/millennials-still-dont-want-trades-heres-needs-happen/#comment-266) is especially relevant.
As an engineer, I work with a decent number of tradespeople who are way cooler than the comment suggests, and I know several tradespeople from growing up who are awesome. But the overall points hit the nail on the head.
To paraphrase my own comment on the original article, I think we need to do a lot more to de-stigmatize the skilled trades. I think post-secondary education (all kinds) is financially out of reach for too many and we need to make it easier for those who want that education to get it.
I also want to say that a well-rounded education is also an awesome thing. The number of folks I know in STEM fields that have some background in music is huge (music is math, of course). Some fields would benefit from including more humanities and almost every STEM field could benefit from writing/composition courses, not just technical writing (though that should be required)
I went from installing car stereos, to wiring PLCs, to full automated equipment, along the way picking up machining and welding. I now manage operations for the Development Lab at a semiconductor equipment manufacturer, making healthy 6 figures. This is without a trade school diploma, but without a college one either.
Crazy part is my company insists that the maintenance techs in our lab have degrees, I don’t, and I’m way farther up the food chain. I have advocated for years we need HVAC trade school graduates, we get people with BS degrees who can’t use a DVM, never mind have the skills to use a screwdriver. Our equipment is over complicated pizza ovens, an HVAC grad has all the relevant skills and knowledge to excel in this industry, added bonus, you get to work in an air conditioned environment in Arizona, not on a roof or in an attic. It’s not for everyone, but it’s about time our collective industries stop equating a college degree with ability and usefulness.
I was able to finish a BSc in Biochemistry with no debt (but I didn’t have 2 nickels to rum together). I went back for a MSc in Organic Chem. The great thing about most science programs is that there are research fellowships and TA positions that cover tuition and a frugal lifestyle. I got a job right out of grad school in the R&D lab of a chemical manufacturer and have since moved into management. My wife couldn’t get enough of school and ended up with a PhD in physics. She actually had a more limited job market because she wanted to work in a university setting but was able to find something. That woman started school in kindergarten and has essentially never left. I was right ready to leave after my MSc even though my advisor kept bugging me to do a PhD.
I went to college then ended up in a field totally unrelated to my field of study. All the comments here make good points, but I will defend a well rounded liberal arts education. There’s a reason to study history, literature, and art. So many of the confusing aspects of modern living are nothing new. The collective experience of humanity is a valuable guide to navigating your time on Earth. College is good for that. And drugs. And sex.
Look I have a university degree in Soviet model Agricultrual Economics and I can tell you how much it is worth, let me look in the coin tray here…. One thing to tell people entering the trades is your career is limited by your health, always upgrade and you can move into a supervisory position if you have to
I managed to graduate college with very minimal debt (paid off shortly after graduation) because I was working throughout my education and was able to live at home during it. I did my final year over the course of 2 years because I was working nearly full time hours at a bakery to pay for it.
I have some advice for anyone getting into the Civil Engineering field, its best to start at a small company and learn as much as you can before working for a municipality/large corp. Big companies are easier to get lost at and often your roll will be more narrow (meaning you don’t get as much experience) which is great for when you’re getting ready to retire but wont keep your brain awake.
Personally, when I finished my program I had companies calling me to come work in the field before I even had my fancy piece of paper yet. I ended up working for a massive national construction company right after graduation and absolutely hated it. Treated me like a number and put me in a lot of situations I didn’t want to be in. Left 4 months later with back issues and white hair (at 22 years old). Fast forward 6 years and I’m working for a small engineering firm with 10 employees, lots of responsibility but really it’s where I should have started. I still value my earlier experience but the biggest takeaway is that it was a false start to my career, nearly ruined me and sent me back to school for something else.
Been there, done that. The company sizes I worked for looked like this 1600 -> 500 -> 40 -> 1
I’ve never been happier than now when I’m working for myself. The 40 people company making robots was awesome too
If you are getting a full-ride scholarship, or if mommy and daddy have been putting away for college since you were born, and you want to go to college to become a well-rounded person or for the experience it provides, more power to you. For the rest of us, a library card is much cheaper, and you can get all the books on philosophy and English poetry you want.
I have nothing against college (I am pursuing my MBA currently), but the only reason to go into debt for college is if the income you get from it outweighs the cost. Going 70K in debt to get a psychology degree and make $35K a year makes no sense, and you will regret it, no matter how well-rounded you are or how much fun you had in college.
Many kids feel pressured to go to college so they don’t waste their future. Many would be much happier working in a trade. A sense of accomplishment comes with fixing or building something with your own two hands and you are providing a valuable service to people and the community. Parents and teachers need to get out of this mode that the only way kids can be successful is if they go to college.
I spent most of my productive years as a professional soldier/Marine. When I first joined the Corps in 1965 I knew intuitively that I had found my calling. 30 years later I finished up with a vast store of memories, a so-so retirement plan and another 40 plus years left to play around with. This led to a stint as an over the road semi driver which was very enjoyable but also very hard on a marriage.
Then I was inspired! I decided to return to school. This led to four years of study followed by a BA in English – Technical writing. Did I have some great plan for my future? NO! I did it out of personal satisfaction. I wanted to show myself, family, and friends that there was in fact an intellectual side to me. I wanted a little piece of paper to hang on my wall that attested to what I had accomplished. My student loan costs were very small, less than $5000 in total!
Actually I did use the degree as a sort of adjunct to my first goal of a degree. I found employment immediately after graduating at age 53 as a writer, designing and writing introductary educational models of skilled trades. I quit at the exact one year mark because, again, I had achieved my goal of demonstrating that I could use my degree to a purpose.
What does any of this show? That life goals may be a single event or a series of events, each a compleate event in and of itself and find satisfaction in each one, and that learning for its own sake has greater value than most might would give credence to.
Great story, and very much agree – the older I get, the more pleasure I take in doing things right simply for sake of doing them right.
Sure, we need resources etc. to survive (and keep oneself in the various vehicles we all love), but there’s definitely a point of diminishing returns where it ceases to be useful/memorable. But accomplishing ones goals, whatever they may be, is the kind of thing that you take with you all your life, and (I find) is what you fondly recall when thinking back on what you’ve done.
Thanks!
If it makes anyone feel better, I had to learn to Sand cast, tig weld without a wire and sharpen a drill bit or not pass the engineering program I was in. I still have my aluminum coaster and the poorly built tool box our team fabricated. I di however also work 2 jobs while in college and left with no student loans except maybe credit cards to speak of. IT can be done, and the paper does open gates in some fields, but as I always said back then, no sense in wasting time and energy on a worthless degree. Most of the Professors rarely taught classes as they were being way overpaid to do research while letting Grad student teach But there were still a few really good ones, I am extremely glad I had the pleasure to work with and gain their knowledge.
My ex wife’s dad was a Union Boiler guy, he taught the 4 year apprentice program to newbies. A lot of what they had to learn was not all that different. and it was still a 4 year commitment, but instead of a side gig they basically got paid minimally to do the work the older guys were teaching them. The end goal of course was journeyman title. The only difference was they did not have the predatory lending debt.
I’ve thought about this a lot with all the fuss lately about student loans and the backlash against college in general. I totally agree that we will always need mechanics; we will always need plumbers; we will always need electricians.
But it remains true that in aggregate, college graduates earn significantly more than those without a degree.
https://www.aplu.org/our-work/4-policy-and-advocacy/publicuvalues/employment-earnings/
So it becomes a bit of a “Tragedy of the Commons” situation where, when everyone is looking out for what’s best for themselves, things don’t work out for society as a whole. Many (though certainly not all) high school graduates (and their parents) may say: “Yeah, trades are great… for everyone else, but not for me [or my kid]!” There’s a reason private high schools still tout the high percentages of their graduates who go on to college.
The laws of supply and demand are such that things will self-correct (with limited tradespeople, they will be able to command higher fees/wages), but that takes time. I think things will even out as trends change.
For my parents’ generation, going to college wasn’t nearly as common as it is now, and a degree — any degree — was seen as a ticket to better success (and the data was there to back it up). Guidance counselor offices sported biased posters encouraging the higher education track. For many of them, it worked out, and many of those from that generation instilled similar values in their children.
But trends change over time. By the time that next generation got to college, just having any degree wasn’t enough AND the price of tuition had skyrocketed because of the run on demand. At this point, you need the right degree from the right school or else you’re never going to make back the ROI.
I think my generation recognizes this change with many having been burned by it. It will be interesting to see how trends change as a result.
The trades are absolutely suffering. I work in municipal permitting and talk with contractors every day. When they heard my son was graduating high school several offered to talk to him about joining their companies. However, like all males in his generation, he’s intent on becoming a Video Game Developer and saving the world with Python or something.
The plumbers I work with every day are turning down work left and right because they have more than they can get to already. They all make more money than most people I know and many own their own companies.
College isn’t for everyone, and should really only be presented as one option for a kid’s future. It has long bothered me that we’re asking 17 and 18 year old kids to determine a life direction so young and then not giving them the education they need to make smart financial decisions – like thinking seriously about endless college debt.
My kids’ high school was geared to preparing the kids for secondary education, but not necessarily focused on college. University, trade school, military service, and straight to work were all presented as options and they did job shadows and research projects to test their interests. The counselors provided all the assistance they could for any of those options. Since getting into college is the most difficult option they mostly worked on that, but a classmate of my daughter enlisted in the Marines and his counselor went with him to the initial meetings with the recruiter (which was even more impressive when you know it’s a Montessori school!). Kids going straight to work got help with resumes and interviewing skills. I was really impressed with how they prepped the kids for a future after public school.
You echoed my sentiments perfectly, thank you. It really is insane when you consider it in the most basic sense. In most cases, these kids couldn’t get a loan for a car without a co-signer, but they can direct their own financial life circumstances for years and years, no questions asked. At a minimum, high schools really need to add “Adulting 101” classes to the curriculum, mandatory for graduation. If the argument for secondary education is preparing kids for their adult life, then I think anything short of those types of courses would be a gross omission.
I’m also glad to hear your kids’ high school counselors are doing their job in providing all options available to them. My hope is that when that time comes for my own, that we’re as fortunate.
Im only 17,and next year i will be graduating from high school, my aim is to get an entry into Coventry University’s Automotive Engineering program, although id love to get into a mechanics school where they teach how to fix shit, instead of numbers. As im shit with math and physics, im only good on activities where it requires a good pair of hands like auto detailing / auto mechanic, im currently running my own little home-service detail services.
Any tips are very well appreciated! 🙂
Do both Frederick. Higher education needs people like you.
Go to Uni and work part time as an unskilled laborer at a garage at the same time.
University will open doors going forward.
Garage work will keep you fed while studying.
(hint: tell the garage owner that you can help out during weekends and evenings when everyone else is home)
“Higher education needs people like you”
Yeah, someone’s gotta buy those campus parking permits!
It sounds like you’re telling him to get a STEM education while working part time. Easier said than done when you’re talking about a rigorous curriculum (and the OP says he’s not great with math/science, which means his first couple years would be an absolute slog).
Part time can be 30 hours a week or 12!
Another one. Look into careers in FIRE. Finance, Insurance, Real Estate. Less academia, much more potential upside.
Also if you are having problems with math/science there’s a good chance its NOT because you are STOOPID but that’s its being taught in a manner incompatible with your learning style. I had to take O-chem a few times before I realised the teachings of exactly the same topics from a physical organic chemist made perfect sense while the ravings of a synthetic organic chemist were gibberish. Same with thermodynamics, engineer speak does not translate well to sciencetalk and vice versa. Statistical mechanics was incomprehensible gibberish no matter who preached it.
Or it could be your teachers know almost as little as you do. Keeping on top of topics takes practice. Even us grownups can have a hard time with it, especially when it’s being presented differently than how we learned it ourselves.
Best advice: Get a tutor who can speak your language. There is no shame in that. Quite the opposite in fact.
I actually did what they’re recommending, working two part time jobs (not at the same time, ~20 hrs a week) and two summer internships (mining internships pay pretty well if you find a good one) and it took me 6 years but I managed to graduate and get a job right out of school. Yes, my parents paid for it, but I paid for all of my living expenses (rent, phone bill, car insurance, food, etc.) and the school I went to was affordable. The only reason I took so long was because I made some unintelligent choices in a few key classes.
Granted, I hated the job I got and now work making glue for less than half the previous place paid me, but if I’d had loans I could’ve paid them off in ~3 years with the job I’d had, the lack of debt basically allowed me to make a decision to make me happier that most people would not be able to, at least not immediately.
I started at a job in a very good European auto repair shop by scrubbing and sweeping the parking area and shop floors for a couple of months for free. The owner finally hired me on. A year later he and I actively talked about me taking over the business!
Just to be clear. You worked for free to be allowed to get a job? I have one word for that: “Slavery”.
I hope you’re being sarcastic. If not, it’s called work ethic. I wasn’t in search of wages, I was using my free time to demonstrate that I truly enjoyed his place of business and his employees and would like to be a part of his team. As noted later in my remark, it paid of extremely well as he offered me a partnership, quite an achievment in 1970.
I forgot, this is an American site. What you call work ethic, is considered slavery in the civilized world.
Not sure where you get that idea? It’s not like it was an unpaid full time internship. Those are scummy and are deserving of derision.
What he did was closer to volunteering. At any point he could have left, which typically disqualifies it as being slavery as that whole ‘forced labor’ bit is pretty intrinsic to the definition.
You are absolutely correct, wrong use of the word slavery on my side. It is the unpaid internships and the notion that you have to do some work to “deserve” getting a job that is problematic.
“Any tips are very well appreciated”
Well we can tell you what NOT to do…
“Any tips are very well appreciated!”
Ooh ooh, just thought of one!
Marry rich!
Seriously! Its a tried and true path to a brighter fiscal future.
I married poor.
It’s a great way to become homeless in your 30’s.
Hi Frederick,
My high school careers advisor told me I should become a forestry worker.
I’m a design engineer for OEM automotive manufacturers in the UK. If you can get in to Coventry’s automotive engineering program (or equivalent) try to spend your summers working on cars at a garage, or find a race team to pit crew for at weekends.
You learn at lot at degree level engineering, but you also learn a lot using spanners. The best candidate I’ve ever interviewed had a great degree, but had also replaced the clutch in his mini the day before driving 200 miles to see us. That’s a guy who already understands design for assembly, tool access and a host of other things that you only learn after you’ve skinned your knuckles.
My first job with my shiny new engineering degree was fixing machines in a factory. I only got it because HR didn’t realise my degree didn’t give me any useful qualifications to use tools. But I use that experience every day nearly 30 years later.
My boss doesn’t have a degree, he got a job at an OEM, did day release for HND/C and kept working his way up. His way skipped all the debt I would have built up (I’m old enough and was poor enough that my degree was free back then) and he certainly earns more than I do now.
The best bit of advice would be to have a good hard think about where you want to end up, carefully research all the ways to get there, and then pick the one that suits you and has the best chance of working. And base nothing on what some random guy posts on the internet.
Way back in the stone age when I was deciding what to do with my life, I thought maybe I wanted to get into music and be a recording engineer. So I got in touch with a local recording studio to talk with some folks there. I told him I was considering electrical engineering as a pathway to that career. He told me not to bother. EE wouldn’t teach me what I want to know. I might learn all about how the mixing boards and effects processors work, but not a thing about how to use them. I went on to an EE degree anyway (for other reasons) and he was 100% right.
Point is, if what you really want to do is work on cars and work with your hands, engineering may not be the right path for you. Engineers spend their days in front of a computer screen and in meetings. We make drawings of things and write instructions for the people working with their hands. We ensure that our designs comply with various government regulations and sometimes get to invent creative solutions for problems that need solving. We rarely get dirty ourselves.
THIS.
I went into electrical engineering because I wanted to design EVs. I was 10+ years ahead of the curve on that. I designed my first EV conversion at age 16. Now I design distribution circuits, because I couldn’t get my foot in the door in the EV industry. I had nothing to show them because I didn’t get it drivable until I was 27, due to lack of money. I couldn’t chase my dream job out of school at 22 because I had student loans to pay down, in spite of scholarships covering the overwhelming majority of my tuition.
If I had to do it over again, I’d have dropped out of high school and sold crack to finance my prototype. I’d have had better odds…
This is harder than it sounds but try to do something you enjoy doing. What that is might not be apparent at the age of 17 so be careful about what long term commitments you make before understanding if it is something you will really want to do the rest of your life.
And, keep your eyes open and don’t be afraid to change course if you realize it’s not the right path. It can be painful but in the end if you find something that suits you better it will be worth it.
I know happy and successful people in nearly all walks of life. Nobody was more “right” then the other. But they all eventually found a good spot and made a meaningful life for themselves because they worked hard.
If you do want a 4-year degree, try looking for engineering degrees with the word “Technology” at the end. For example, instead of “mechanical engineering,” which is going to have the whole shitload of physics, calc, etc. you could get a mechanical engineering technology degree. Still 4 year bachelor’s. Still have to learn the foundations of math/science, but a LOT more practical curriculum.
This is really good advice for anyone thinking about an engineering degree. The way I always think about the difference is “engineering = theory of function” and “engineering technology = theory of application”.
Speaking from experience, the theory of function is really only preferable if someone is doing R&D or product design for someone like an OEM. Theory of application is far more relevant in cases where end users are buying something from an OEM, where knowing if that product meets the application requirements is way more important than knowing how it theoretically functions. This is especially true since most OEMs can’t have a detailed knowledge about their end user’s needs and can really only talk about what their product does and doesn’t do.
I’ve worked in consulting, in R&D and product design for OEMs, as a system integrator, as an end user, and as a corporate program manager (standards writer) in multiple industries, and some of the best folks I’ve ever worked with had engineering technology degrees (or worked their way up from technician without an engineering degree).
Totally agree with this! And I’m not sure anyone is out there spreading the good word to the youths!
You write better than most 30-year-olds. You will rock mechanics’ school and having additional abilities will allow you to excel in your field.
There is a school in McPherson, Kansas that teaches all manner of classes and skills in classic car renovation and restoration.
Here’s a link: https://www.mcpcity.com/289/Automotive-Restoration#:~:text=McPherson%20College%20is%20the%20only,degree%20in%20Automotive%20Restoration%20Technology.
I had actively considered this school after my military career but decided that my disabilites precluded me from this line of work. Good luck in your search for a lifetime career!
Frederick,
You are way ahead of things if you are pondering this today. That said to become a product engineer who designs stuff, a Mechanical Engineering or equivalent degree is a good way to get into this industry – the problem is that Mechanical (& Electrical) engineering school requires a LOT of math courses, which you may or may not be willing to fight through (just because something is difficult doesn’t mean you cannot do it). If you want to be a designer an Industrial Design program (usually at some form of art school) may be a better choice. If you don’t want a degree you can probably get going with a few design course that teach you the basics and teaches you CAD tools like Solidworks, or now OnShape. Draftsmen are usually in reasonably high demand (depending on your geography) and employers were willing to take on a newby because there is usually a pile of detailing and/or change orders that are routine and relatively low risk of screwing up although this may be shifting as more designs go to the machine shop with only the model and not a drawing.
That said, it sounds like you like working with your hands, if this is the case you may want to look into Manufacturing Engineering (Technology) where a two or four year degree will get you on a factory floor where you can design and fix machines and processes of all types. You will still need some math but less than for Mech E. Likewise systems engineering usually has less math and automation systems are fun to work on – although a friend of mine who runs several factories said he has no problem finding automation engineers, but loads of problem finding CNC programmers/machine tool engineers (which require lots of math).
Finally if car repair is appealing, look for trade schools that offer automotive tech programs (like Universal Technical Institute), but look at their job placement statistics with a microscope.
Or you could make a mid life career change to do what you really want to do, study for seven years to get into a profession where only the very best make it, only for the double sucker punch of Brexit and the pandemic to fuck it all up and you end up working for this place….
Why not? I went from electronics maintenance to machining after I retired from the U.S. Army. 45 hours a week (including physical training) gave way to 60 hours a week for less money. However, it’s my family’s business, so the low pay means I get new work toys sooner.
My biggest regret is I never did any service when I was younger.
I never specifically planned on enlisting. Like many things in my life, I basically stumbled into it.
In training, I swore up, down, and sideways that I would get out after my 4 year enlistment, then I was part of the Iraq invasion. When we came back, I was told that I could re-enlist for “station of choice” and move to a non-deploying unit, or I could take my chances serving out my enlistment at 3rd Infantry Division. If the division deployed again, I would have been “stop-lossed” (my enlistment would have been involuntarily extended) and sent back to Iraq or Afghanistan. After the first re-enlistment, it turned into a habit.
My desperation enlistment turned into a 17 year career and a commission. When I told my family I had signed up, they were wondering if I had been shanghaied.
That experience has really benefited me in my civilian career and I’m really glad I got that experience.
Ha! My father remarked along the lines of “it’ll either break him or make him.” I’m only a little broken, so…
So true. Luckily for me, the only breaking done was the occasional minor physical injury.
Same!
That blue passport cover colour doesn’t make it up to you for a future life of inconveniences?
i renewed in 2019, so I’ve still got a communist red one until 2029. On the plus side this one has got lots of stamps in (which you never used to get travelling to Europe).
25 years ago I dropped out of college and picked up a trade, and I’ll regret it for the rest of my life. Some work is so hard you can only realistically do it in your 20s. Your mileage may vary, as they say. Now, if I’d have taken a couple of years to learn how to work hard before trying college, as a couple others have implied here, it would have done me nothing but good. Hindsight!
I spent my childhood summers and weekends working. I mean working hard. Laborer for an old-time mason. Working in a machine shop. Doing construction. Digging ditches. It paid great relative to my friends working at the ice cream stand. But doing the physical work of a grown man was a real experience. I saw what a lifetime of struggle can do to a man in the people all around me. Those experiences were the single most influential thing to steer me away from physical labor. I knew that I was either getting a skilled job in the trades (like really skilled and not breaking my back) or going to college.
I coach with a high school team and every year we have the seniors stand up at our end of season program and tell us what they’re doing next. This year at least half of them were taking a gap year before starting college, so I think your suggestion has some support already.
I dropped the university path and chose a technical degree in CEGEP here in Quebec (a free college degree one half step above a trade).
Ended up in aerospace for the last 26 years. My job is now to approve the work of those with engineering degerees!
For those interested, CEGEP’s are unique to Quebec and are great for the vocational careers out there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEGEP
It has gotten to the point where some of the best Universities here in Quebec require the 3 year technical CEGEP programme instead of the typical 2 year pre-university programme.
Dropped out of college for a couple quarters in 1977 and took a Vocational School course in truck driving. Got a good Teamster job and could have forgot about college, but finished my degree and college taught me to be a better union activist. Near half a century later I’m retired with a Teamster pension and still raisin’ hell… Go UAW!
Don’t forget trade union apprenticeships! They actually PAY you while they’re training you.
I know there is a good and justified push to get kids to go into the trades and not get student loans. All good and true. One concern is that if only the rich that can afford college then the policy making, power jobs that shape society and/or make lots of money then there would be a permanent underclass of poor people that have no chance at upward mobility.
I think the point is, however, that college doesn’t benefit you at all in a lot of jobs where you can make a decent living. Personally, I dropped out of college 3 semesters, and now make a pretty decent living as an IT professional at a relatively high level. In all my years hiring IT folks, I never once looked at college on people’s resumes, and nobody I’ve worked with did either. So why have a ton of debt for something that gains you nothing?
Because a lot of other people in charge of hiring DO insist on a college degree whether its actually needed for the job or not.
When you have 79 resumes for one Mcjob and only time to interview 7 of those you have to pick and choose. That’s one way to whittle down the pile.
I think that is changing now that most people are aware that a college degree is effectively meaningless.
A degree proves that you can jump through useless bureaucratic bullshit.
I suppose some college degrees might be “meaningless” but my degrees in engineering, business, and law are useful to me everyday. Let’s check how wide our brushstrokes are!
Fair point. I meant to speak to just my industry. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
No problem. I had no idea that was true about IT, since it’s basically sorcery to me.
Depends on the degree too. Thanks to degree inflation, company image and maybe a touch of sadism some employers demand an advanced degree even for jobs that don’t need it. After years of post docs even an entry level job looks good.
Look at us! Even our DISHWASHERS have Ph.D.s!
BUUUAAHAAAA!!!!
Conversely when times get tough companies look to fill higher level positions with cheaper undergraduate only candidates while ignoring applicants with higher degrees. I’ve met more than a few STEM Ph.D holders who left that part off their resume and filed in the blank with something else.
Is it? Why do you think so?
I don’t think it should be based on your wealth. I think aptitude should matter. Some kids will clearly benefit from higher education, but many just suffer through it and never enjoy any of the benefits apart from a possible higher income.
I’m 40 and I’ve wrangled more ways than a rodeo bull with IT work. I’m looking at going back and get myself a trade. It’s either that, or fight contract work doing who knows what.
I think very few 18 year-olds are actually ready for college. Learning a good work ethic first and getting a degree later (say around 30) is a great way to transition from the single 20’s into the holy-crap-I’m a parent 30’s.
P.J. O’Rourke famously said, “College is a four-year party with a $25,000 cover charge” (not adjusted for inflation). Okay, fine. College is now a 21-up institution, like a bar. Admission standards are now like a combination of showing your ID to the bouncer, and doing your taxes – valid ID required, as well as three years worth of W-2s. You must prove that you are an adult, and have lived and worked like an adult, before we let you in. College is grownup school, where grownups go to make grownup decisions about what to do with the rest of their grownup lives.
Oh, and student loans? They are now 100% private, with no more government guarantees, and you are now required to submit an ROI proposal to sufficiently establish that your preferred degree is worth the bank’s investment. Pick a degree that is worth spending the money on, that will earn you enough money to pay the loan back under its terms within a reasonable amount of time, or pay cash. Choose.
Very few 18-year-olds have a crystal clear enough vision of what they want to do with their lives that they will still want to do in 30 years. That’s mainly because the prefrontal cortex – in short, as close to an “adulting” lobe of the brain as we have – will not be fully matured for at least another five or six years. Sounds like a swell time to make a long-ranging life decision involving tens of thousands of other people’s dollars at interest, doesn’t it?
To the point about government guarantees for student loans: I totally agree that this is a key part of the problem with our college system. It incentivized schools to charge the maximum and keep students in the system as long as they can. They don’t care one bit what happens to you and your loans after you leave. Go ahead and spend $100k on your philosophy degree. Those $1000/mo loan payments are your own problem as soon as you take off the mortarboard.
If I were emperor, the government would continue to fund student loans, but those loans would be guaranteed by the colleges where they are spent, AND they would be dischargeable in bankruptcy. I think you’d immediately see schools taking costs and employment way more seriously, and start offering and requiring personal finance classes as part of all their degree tracks.
How about this: if a graduate has not secured gainful employment in his degree field within 24 months of graduation, while following a certain set of agreed-upon standards about how, and how hard, he should be looking for a job, the college is on the hook for the entire tuition bill.
I went to university at 39, and let me tell you it was eye-opening.
As an undergrad, I hated classes with “old people.” They were such good students, they always fucked up the curve. 🙂
as an adjunct professor, I LOVED the older students as they were serious. I will and have NEVER graded on a curve. it is lazy and a reprehensible crime against education and proves that professors are not well-trained educators.
Before being accepted to grad school (at 38), I had to take Physics for non-physics majors (Architect). The teacher had never taught non-majors before and tried to teach as he usually did; we didn’t even get to discuss half of what we were supposed to learn as we wasted days on explaining the metric system or prefixes like K or M. Greek letters (including pi) were also unfamiliar.
I got a 62 on the midterm, and the Professor had to drop my grade from the curve since the second highest grade was 38, and if he had failed the entire class he would’ve been in trouble… but I think it mainly proves that he should have adjusted his lesson plan. The class became a farce by the end, with rampant cheating as students used iPads for “notes” for the final.
After adjuncting I got my high school science teaching license and have been teaching high school for 25 years now. College professors have NO educational pedagogical training and if any are good teachers it is by accident or their own interest. Professors suck at teaching. I have a similar story about my organic chem prof. 40 out of 45 got below 20% on tests. He (after me) became a hs chem teacher and learned quickly he was in the wrong.
I started grad school at 38, and it was amazing. My fellow grad students were a mixed bunch, but I was consistently impressed with the grit and curiosity of the undergrads (we often had combined studios).
Yup, I was 32 and had a wife, kid, and a mortgage. But I got the best grades of my life, I never got As in math at grade or high school, that’s for sure.
The work ethic I developed during my 20’s made all the difference.
For those interested in even more of what Mercedes speaks, I highly recommend Matthew Crawford’s “Shopclass as Soulcraft.”
He makes a passionate case for both the value of the trades AND the worth of higher education, both what we think of as traditionally collegiate and the technical skills we sometimes don’t.
It came out when I was about six months into night school to learn auto repair, and it helped me order what had been going through my mind that had led me there.
He’d be a most excellent autopian guest. As of his last book (“Why We Drive – toward a philosophy of the open road”), he’s rebuilding a ’70s Super Beetle and dailies a Karman Ghia.
I read Why We Drive, but haven’t picked up Shopclass as Soulcraft yet. There is worth in both vocational training and higher education. I think a lot of the worth of that higher education can be found in a two year degree where you take general education classes that give you a broad exposure to everything – sciences, math, composition, humanities, sociology, etc.
Totally agree. I like how he endeavors to make the intellectual connections between general knowledge and very specific, hands-on technical knowledge.
I enjoy his conversational style. It really feels like sitting around with a friend in a garage or whatever and talking about what comes to mind…some of his most thought-provoking ideas are little thoughts that he throws out, but leaves open ended. He even acknowledges early on the book is scattershot.
There are a lot of trade schools that are just as worthless, overpriced, and predatory as non-“trade” for-profit or non-profit colleges. The bigger problem is the government backed student loan system. Get rid of government guarantees and make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy and college and trade school will become affordable really quickly.
It’s criminal that student debt is non-dischargeable and has very high interest rates as if they are high risk loans, which they’re not because they must be paid back. To further the outrage, they should be low or even no interest (government backed) because we should be encouraging people to get degrees, especially in important vocations that need people, but might not pay really well so people who would be so inclined to major in them do something else that might not be so important so they can make enough money to be able to pay back their damn loans.
Any commodity that can be paid for with free government money on easy terms will naturally rise in price. Not only has college tuition skyrocketed this way, but the difficulty of getting the money has not risen along with it. Meaning: more people each year are able to borrow more money than they already couldn’t pay back, to pay more for tuition each year than the year before, on their way to either a degree that more graduates have and fewer employers thus have a need for; or a degree that absolutely no one has ever been hiring for, and never will be.
I was already starting to smell a rat by the time I got to my last semester of college, and that was before I took a makeup class in Western civ to complete my degree, where I learned the history and origins of the university. It turns out that the entire concept originated as a place where royalty and nobility and gentry could send their sons to become worldly and learned and become worthy of their stations in life. That was when I realized that the basic function of the university has not really changed in 800 years, except now it’s full of people who do not have an inheritance of f-you money waiting for them on the other side.
It’s almost like for-profit education is a scam!
Profit itself is not a scam, until the government decides on all our behalf that certain institutions should profit, and guarantees loans to people to buy things from those institutions.
None of this would be a problem if education was essentially free like it is in the civilized world.
THIS! The absurd rise of college education started when the government started backing loans to anyone and everyone… in the 70s you could work part time in college, in the 90s part time + a good summer job might get it done, now you are in debt. Colleges spend millions building dorms, cafeterias, and showy stuff just to entice more income into the university because college is a “must experience” and has no upper limit.
I am a college grad, got my Mech Eng degree in less than 4 years, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do (work @ an OEM). Was blessed with upper middle income parents that could afford to send me there, which I am trying to do for my kids. But so many others don’t have a clue and are financially ruined for life because of a system that doesn’t benefit the students. It’s really sad and needs to change. And “forgive debts” isn’t the change that’s needed.
“Forgive debts” might not be the change that’s needed, but it’s the bandaid that’s needed for debts that are already there. It sounds like you haven’t personally experienced how devastating college debt can be to your life (and before we shit on ppl for obtaining it– 18-year-old literal CHILDREN are told by every adult in their lives that its necessary for a good life).
Two other reasons tuition skyrocketed: (1) increasing administrative costs; and (2) significantly reduced tax support.
It is bitter, though, for those of us who refinanced, scrimped, and struggled to be able to pay down our loans – meanwhile, my grasshopper friends just deferred and spend money like crazy, expecting it to take care of itself. I don’t wish ill on them but it sucks to get burnt for having done the right thing.
Well, after all, they are only doing on a personal level what the government does every day, and considering that this entire mess was the gubmint’s idea and their fault to begin with, I suppose what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Personally, getting burnt makes me feel even more insistent that others should NOT get burnt. It hurts and I don’t wish pain on an anonymous group of strangers.
But my burn comes from paying my debt. We literally lived in my in-laws’ attic for nine years. I think there should at least be some kind of tax break for people who have been paying down their loans. I wouldn’t be eligible for much anyhow, as 80% of my loans were for grad school.
I do agree with forgiveness, and as a society we are supposed to help those in need – but here we are throwing money at people who often made wildly irresponsible decisions instead of dealing with their situation. My friend Farva owed around $30K and works in the field she studied. Instead of paying off her loans she moved to a cooler part of town in 2021 and was paying $3800 in rent last time we talked. Now her loans are nudging $40K and she’s still spending like crazy, rented a house in the Poconos for Columbus Day weekend, etc. My co-worker bought a brand new Highlander to replace his previous Highlander when it came off lease, while all of his loans are in deferment.
People like the ones I know must represent a sizable proportion of borrowers. Obviously they are not every one and I do not think that everyone choking on debt only have themselves to blame.
My second concern is that forgiving loans now will induce others to borrow even more in the future. Not sure how best to mitigate that, beyond providing alternatives to overpriced, private education. My third concern is that with Republicans blocking all attempts at forgiveness, it is likely that only some random subset of loans will be forgiven as they happen to make it through the legal gauntlet – helping some and abandoning others. Again, this is not an argument against forgiveness, but I think these issues absolutely have to be incorporated into any plans.
The best thing I can think of is to establish income-based minimum payments (and that doesn’t mean high payments) with automatic forgiveness after thirty years, and no tax hit when loans are forgiven. And the system should not be determined to reject forgiveness – if you missed five payments, all you’d have to do is pay five months longer at the end. This should please ants as well as grasshoppers and those who truly deserve forgiveness (can’t think of a good fable creature to represent them).
It is a bitter pill.
My wife and I combined had to pay off over $200,000. Meanwhile we drove cars that were 15 years old and the only way we upgraded anything was if I did the work myself. Never traveled or vacationed. Well, nearly a decade and half later and we did it. I understand how hard it is. And it’s really tough to be ok with others around us who deferred over and over again to now be asking for a handout. But I support it (to some degree)… not “forgive all loans” but maybe something meaningful to help move it along and stop giving them false hope that it’s all just going to go away.
That last one is the big point. The government should subsidize post-secondary education. A well-educated workforce grows tomorrow’s economy in ways that can’t be identified today.
As a trade school graduate who later went back to school on the company dime, I suggest trade school to anyone who will listen. While I certainly learned important things from my university classes, what I learned at trade school has proven more useful and applicable to the real world engineering work I do for a living. The best part was my trade school had a paid internship program that literally paid my tuition each semester while giving hands-on experience, so I graduated with years of experience AND zero student debt. I will admit, I sometimes think about giving up the rat race of engineering and going back to the relative simplicity of being an electrical technician…
Why do people pick unprofitable majors and blame society for the fact they aren’t getting rich? Don’t borrow money with interest to get a low paying gig.
I know I did it.
Because society and HR requires expensive degrees for low-paying gigs.
And because nobody who tells these kids they “need to go to college” tells them to be strategic about their higher education choices – probably because they themselves spent tons of money on high-cost degrees for low-paying jobs.
Or they got their degrees when the costs for degrees were much, much lower.
Yes there are definitely traps for people coming out of HS.
I am a personal responsibility fiscal conservative. But there is something evil about a 40 year old being able to fuck up a business and declare bankruptcy, but a 18 year old that has been lied to by the system not being able to declare bankruptcy. Of course I do not think that the 18 year old should have the government back up the loan, and I am fine if nobody is willing to lend them money. Because between technology and what adjuncts work for college should not cost more than $1,000 a semester. It only does now because of what colleges can steal from naive young people with government backing and no right to bankruptcy.
Well I can’t say I liked paying tens of thousands back but I agreed to it. I think HS should teach economics. Government should not lend money on worthless degrees. But if you can get an 84 month loan on a car a college loan is a better deal. However in my time in college I saw many students never studying drinking and partying. There has to be a bottom line and a level of responsibility.
There’s not a damn thing else in this world that a bank will lend six figures to a chucklehead teenager for (go to Wells Fargo as an unemployed 18-year-old kid and apply for a $300,000 mortgage or a $50,000 auto loan and see how long it takes them to laugh you out of the place), much less one that they will dock your tax refund to pay back. This federalized loan sharking has been going on long enough by now that there are people old enough to have their Social Security payments garnisheed for student loans. It’s the 21st century version of owing your soul to the company store, it is completely the federal government’s fault, and it’s disgusting and un-American.
Because if they’re anything like I was, a smart kid with great grades, they’re told, “As long as you get a degree in SOMETHING.” And I was that kid all the way back in 1990. Which is how I ended up with a half-hearted bachelor’s degree in a field where my lifetime earnings since the date on my diploma are $0.00.
I grew up in the “Just Say No” 80s being warned about the sneaky ways of drug pushers. In hindsight, I should have been looking out for the college pushers. They fucked up my mind and drained my wallet exactly like they said drug dealers would: by hooking me on something expensive that was supposed to make my life better.
I love these guys reactions to blame 17 year-olds for making bad decisions and not the 80 year old geriatric politicians who sit on the boards of colleges and funnel money to their crony administrator friends.
I blame society for pushing those teenagers and not providing proper guidance. I was an idiot, too – I used my first student loan check on a custom stereo installation in my car. 🙂
And as has been said so many times, many people simply have no business in higher education. Not throwing shade, but why make yourself (and your teachers!) suffer only so that you can be in debt?
The world falls apart without some of those “unprofitable majors”. Think teachers, social workers, etc. Shitty pay, but we’d be in a lot shittier place without them.
This is a very good point. I hate when people disparage jobs that are necessary for our society to function because they are not glamorous or high paying. Someone has to teach our kids, someone has to clean the toilets, someone has to serve the food, and they all deserve dignity and a living wage.
We also need more than just STEM. Put a bunch of engineers in a room and you have a very boring discussion (or one that is just on technical subjects). Add in some people who have arts, business, basket weaving, sociology, and any other ‘dumb’ major and you get a bigger, better discussion.
Remember, those damned engineers are the ones whose bright ideas made your car harder and harder to service every year. They are the people, for example, who designed the fan shroud on the 2005 Chevy Trailblazer I used to have to capture the neck of the radiator. This means that when I went to replace the water pump, the so-called correct procedure was to take apart half of the front of the damn truck, just to get the radiator out of the way.
The YouTube shade tree mechanic procedure, as I saw demonstrated on several repair channels, is to simply take a hacksaw, not out the fan shroud, then lift it out clean. Which is precisely what I did.
Those damned engineers have to worked with damned cost modeling, damned procurement, and GOD DAMNED marketing.
You’d be lucky to HAVE a discussion, and not just a bunch of people awkwardly staring at the shoes.
Kidding. 🙂 I totally agree with you.
How do you know when you are dealing with an extroverted engineer?
He looks at your shoes when he talks to you instead of his own.
Poor guidance.
It’s hard for some of us to remember but we really had no idea what to do coming out of High School. So, for many, they were told to go to college as a sort of golden arrow. And, with easy money in the form of government loans they didn’t have to worry about it until they graduated.
I think there is some shared blame here and everyone is just pointing fingers. On the plus side I think a good portion of the current generation of young parents understand the issue and are less likely to let it happen to their kids.
When I had this conversation with my mom long after it was too late to avoid, she shook her head ruefully and told me that the same lies my generation was fed about college, my dad’s generation was fed about going into the military – and my grandparents believed the old lie for their children the same way my mom believed the new lie for me.
Why don’t teenagers with zero adult life experience and not-fully-developed brains make better financial decisions?!
Casting the blame on 17 year olds is the stupidest argument ever. I went to a cheap college and have a good job but I might have fallen into the same trap if I ended up getting into a “better” higher ranked college.