Watch As People Desperately Try To Prevent Electric Cars Damaged By Hurricane Ian From Starting Fires

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It’s absolutely true that combustion-engined cars catch fire plenty, and have been doing so for well over a century. Gasoline is flammable, and fires do happen, no question. But even with that in mind, modern EVs are changing the car-on-fire game dramatically, something that’s been most recently seen in places like Florida that have been hit with hurricanes and the resulting salt-water flooding. Salt water wreaks havoc on EV batteries, and EVs have been catching fire at alarming rates. Even worse, the way these cars burn is so dramatically different than how gas cars burn that it’s requiring new methods to deal with the fires, not all of which are ideal. This Good Morning America clip shows these issues in a stark way that made us think it was worth showing you, in case you missed it.

Here’s the clip; also, I don’t recognize any of these people, which reminded me that I haven’t watched GMA since that guy who sounded kinda like Bullwinkle was a host. But that doesn’t matter, just watch:

So, what’s going on here, exactly? On a very, very basic level, the saltwater is interacting with the chemistry of a lithium-ion battery to cause shorting and thermal runaway conditions. We’re currently finding a proper EV battery engineer to do a deep dive on this, but until then it’s just grimly fascinating to see how these fairly unexpected (well, in the layperson’s eyes) issues that come with, for the first time in America, a genuinely significant number of EVs on the road.

[Editor’s Note: Generally, we don’t like to discuss technical topics without input from engineers, but this video is fascinating unto itself, so we figured we’d show it while we await input from battery engineers, who can dive a bit deeper into why this all happens. -DT]

I mean, this is pretty unprecedented when it comes to car fires: dumping a car in a water-logged ditch an attempt to keep it from igniting again?

EvditchLithium-Ion batteries are incredibly energy dense, and are susceptible to a process known as thermal runaway, where the battery “enters an uncontrollable, self-heating state.” This is partially why EV fires require about ten times as much water to extinguish, and why the batteries, which may still be producing heat internally after initial fires have been put out, can reignite — even a significant amount of time after the initial incident.

That’s why the storage of burned-out EVs in Florida look like this:

Evparking

The incredibly low density of this sort-of scrapyard is because any of those flooded cars could reignite without warning, and the distance can help prevent one burning car from igniting others. Here’s an aerial view of a similar lot, full of Teslas:

I know all cars can catch on fire, and I do not think EVs are inherently more dangerous than other cars in general. However, in this specific context — flooding — especially salt water flooding, there really isn’t any comparison with combustion cars. Combustion cars get ruined when flooded, but generally don’t catch on fire as a result of being water-logged.

This is all kind of new territory, and it’s clear that new procedures and precautions need to be developed. TThe NTSB does have guidelines for Emergency Responders for dealing with Li-ion fires, and Florida Chief Financial Officer and State Fire Marshal (shouldn’t they have two people to do these jobs?) Jimmy Patronis issued a letter to over 30 EV carmakers, though it’s addressed directly to Elon Musk, who I guess can just tell everyone else about it:

Mr. Elon Musk

Chief Executive Officer

Tesla

13101 Harold Green Road

Austin, Texas 78725

Dear CEO Elon Musk:

As you are aware, nearly three weeks ago Hurricane Ian impacted Florida’s Southwest coast, inundating the area with salty storm surge waters. The Category 4 hurricane was so massive, storm surge reached 16 feet in certain areas and went as far inland as downtown Fort Myers. From my experience in traveling the state, there were a tremendous amount of Electronic Vehicles (EVs) in this part of Florida, and we now know for a fact that any EV that was submerged in saltwater is a fire risk.

As the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) confirmed last week, “Test results specific to saltwater submersion show that salt bridges can form within the battery pack and provide a path for short circuit and self-heating. This can lead to fire ignition.” The federal agency also confirmed that, “Lithium-ion vehicle battery fires have been observed both rapidly igniting and igniting several weeks after battery damage occurred.” Further, I saw with my own eyes as North Collier Fire Rescue fought an EV fire that continuously reignited. It was surreal, and frankly scary, watching fire teams fight this EV fire, using tens-of-thousands of gallons of water to cool the batteries, and then again watching the EV reignite. I even found out later that the car reignited on the tow truck. Florida firefighters have been the tip of the spear in hurricane recovery operations, and more has to be done to help these heroes deal with the unique challenges of EV fires. The fumes from the fires are dangerous, fires reignite, and fire teams don’t have a lot of tools at their disposal in dealing with these lithium-ion vehicle battery fires.

The unfortunate reality is that there is a population of vehicles that could spontaneously combust, putting our first responders at risk, and the manufacturers are nowhere to be found. For as big a risk as this is to fire teams, for companies who have received an immense sum of subsidies from taxpayers, I would have hoped the reaction by manufacturers would have been more robust – especially as these EVs supposedly have a tremendous amount of technology and connectivity. There could be a family who evacuated, whose home was left relatively intact from Ian, who may still lose everything because of an abandoned EV, left in their garage, that catches fire as a result of salty storm surge waters. That’s a risk that requires more of a response from manufacturers than just telling customers to consult the owner’s manual.

Many of these families are trying to rebuild their lives following Ian, and manufacturers should really be doing more for families in their time of need. That’s just good corporate stewardship.

In this context, we need EV manufacturers to step-up, demonstrate leadership and partner with the State of Florida and local officials in this recovery to ensure that:

1. Outreach to EV owners by manufacturers takes place, alerting customers to the risks of EVs and fires from salty storm surge waters.

2. Identifying and safely relocating compromised EVs to appropriate spaces for monitoring.

3. Having an on-the-ground presence and offering assistance to customers and first responders in mitigating these risks.

Because each and every EV model is different, and because much of this information is not publicly available under the premise of trade secrets, we need more information that is specific to each and every EV model. As such, I am requesting the following information of your company:

1. Has your company conducted any analysis on the effects of saltwater intrusion on the lithium ion batteries in your vehicles and their risks associated with fires?

2. Over what period of time does a fire risk exist from a vehicle impacted by saltwater, or does the risk exist indefinitely? While NHTSA confirmed to our office that “fire ignition” can occur “several weeks” after exposure to saltwater, firefighters and other first responders need greater specificity to accurately assess, plan, and act on these risks.

3. Can you provide to the state information on the location of these EVs in the runup to impacts from Ian?

4. Can you provide a point of contact for your company that can be shared with emergency officials?

5. Are there any fire risks associated with chargers that were submerged in storm surge?

6. Do you have the ability to assess whether an EV, impacted by storm surge, is operational and currently being used?

7. To your knowledge, is there any fire suppression technology that has great success in ensuring fires do not reignite?

8. As much of the Central portion of Florida was flooded by heavy rains, is there any associated risks with submersion in freshwater?

9. Will you forego any attempts to limit information, under the premise of proprietary secrets, and agree to make the provided information to above questions publicly available as to facilitate greater coordination amongst industry experts as we work in real time to mitigate risks?

Please provide answers to my office for public distribution no later than October 24th. Again, the recovery in Southwest Florida is still ongoing. There are still families who have not gotten to their homes and families who are sifting through their belongings, making hard decisions. While this information is critical to mitigating further suffering, we really need to see more action by your company on a product that no one knows more about better than your engineers and your experts.

I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

 

Jimmy Patronis

Chief Financial Officer

So far there has yet to be a formal response from any carmaker to the letter, which has valid questions.

While we’ve certainly seen EV fires before, Hurricane Ian forced Florida into becoming an unwitting testbed of what happens when large numbers of EVs are salt-water flooded en masse. The results aren’t great.

 

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Mercedes Streeter

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89 thoughts on “Watch As People Desperately Try To Prevent Electric Cars Damaged By Hurricane Ian From Starting Fires”

  2. Don’t worry this will be fixed with the OTA update.
    The way will work is that it will catch fire right before the storm so it is using Neuralink Ai technology just exactly the same way autopilot disengages miliseconds before impact, to graciously skirt the law.
    Meanwhile the hardcore petrolheads would be getting the popcorn and listening to this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adgx9wt63NY

  5. Holy water for vampires, salt water for Teslas. Got it. Are they really reaching out to Mr. Musk for help? He’ll just call you a pedo guy and tell you to piss off.

  7. Small correction. It’s not the saltwater reacting to the battery chemistry, but the saltwater just being conductive and shorting out electronics by bridging them. Then the real fun starts as the lithium burns hot. No matter the type of battery in your EV, saltwater will fry it. For instance, bathed in saltwater, an EV1 would certainly have fried itself, but probably not caught on fire and if it did, the batteries themselves wouldn’t burn.

  8. Aren’t there professional firefighters in the state of Florida? Who are these yahoos pouring water on a lithium battery fire when a quick look at Google will tell you that you should use dry chemicals or foam or just about anything other than water?

    I mean really.

    Do you put water on an electrical fire? Do you put water on a chemical fire?

    The average electrical powered car carries less energy than the average gasoline powered car as we are constantly told by the anti EV whiners going on about range ( plus internal combustion engines have lousy thermal efficiency so they are carrying even more energy for the same range )

    1. I suspect they are in fact professional firefighters and know more about extinguishing than the average yahoo (I being one myself – yahoo that is).

      Dry chemicals put out fires by melting just enough to smother the supply of oxygen, but do not reduce the intrinsic heat of a fire. Lithium battery fires don’t really need oxygen to get started (or restarted). As someone else here stated, they overheat and that’s what gets all the other shit around it cooking. Until all the potential energy (sometimes upwards of a hundred kilowatt hours) stored in a damaged EV lithium battery gets dissipated, it’s going to keep making lots of heat. So, smartly and cheaply, they use water to dissipate it instead (mostly through evaporation) and it takes a lot of water to do that.

      And foam doesn’t work because it’s also meant to cut off the oxygen supply, which again, isn’t the real problem.

      They say you need a triad to make fire, fuel, oxygen, and heat. With EVs, the car is the fuel, the air provides the oxygen, but the battery is the heat source, and eliminating that heat with a crap-ton of good old aitch-too-oh is the best way to do it.

      Fun fact, most of the mono-ammonium-phosphate (MAP) dry chemical used in type ABC fire extinguishers, comes from Florida. Like they have A LOT of it.

  9. This has got to be one of the funniest things I’ve seen in a while. I have nothing against Electric Vehicles themselves. What ruins it for me is the virtue signaling. Buying one because you like the technology and understand the limitations is fine. Buying one because you think you are saving the planet, you think electricity magically comes from the wall outlet, you think CO2 is a pollutant, or you think they are more versatile is laughable at best.

    1. Nobody thinks “electricity magically comes from the wall outlet,” and CO2 is absolutely a pollutant whether it comes from a tailpipe or the chimney of a fossil-fuel burning power plant.

      And to answer the follow-up “CO2 is what plants crave,” yes, plants metabolize CO2, but an excess of anything is a pollutant to the system. Even water will kill you if you drink more of it than your body can handle.

      Projection, thy name is “virtue signaling.”

  10. I have an idea. Dump all the damaged batteries in a water proof hole. Fill the hole with salt water while batteries are on fire. The water evaporates the salt stays solid and California has a new environmental safe water source to protest. Oh I mean use so they can continue the ponzi scheme of luring new residents and businesses when they won’t have water for them. They claim climate change but really its just having 20 million or more residents and farmers growing crops in the desert areas that have sapped the water resources. But remember California isn’t in favor of a plan to fix the issue they just want to use the issue to get more idiots to believe in their communist/socialist agenda.

  11. So I am wondering about road salt, corrosion, precipitation and the 20 year old affordable EV car.
    A slower process, probably will never happen as battery packs won’t live that long and nobody would put a new battery costing high dollars in a rust bucket would they?

  12. At the bare minimum, automakers should consider designing a sort-of “quick release” to disconnect the battery pack from the rest of the car so that it can be moved somewhere that’s not about to be deluged by saltwater.

    1. Yeah come up with how that would work. I picture government announcing they are taking away EV Batteries like they tried with guns, people fighting them because we can’t leave if you take our cars Batteries. Can we at least get some thinking before posting dumb ideas. Oh and then store all these Batteries in one’s place it gets hit by a hurricane which has tons of salt water and then a EV LOVE CANAL. I know it’s a politically incorrect idea but I am so in favor of an idea that follows everyone’s social media posts and requires castration for people that demonstrate their genes shouldn’t love on. Kinda s/

      1. >I picture government announcing they are taking away EV Batteries like they tried with guns
        Please point to the part of my comment where I said that.

  13. The Fire Marshall covers this fairly clearly in his letter, but seems to just be salt water leaving an evaporated conductive salt bridge across battery terminals, shorting them and leading to very high current, therefore heat.
    I guess battery chemistry comes into it slightly in terms of the likelihood of a specific type of better going into a cascade failure mode though.

    1. The battery’s chemistry is the issue. All batteries can short and make heat from salt water intrusion.With a lead acid battery the fun stops soon after.With lithium the party is just starting- and (obviously) then it’s really hard to stop

  15. We need a way for first responders and tow truck drivers to safely discharge the high voltage batteries. That way they can be safely transported and stored without worrying about thermal runaway.

    I can see someone (Elon) calling this a feature, not a bug. You can’t sell a flood damaged EV if it catches fire before it dries out!

    1. Discharge speed is exactly the problem. There is always resistance to current flow, and therefore, there will always be heat buildup.

      I’m probably WAY oversimplifying it, but lithium batteries can discharge very quickly. Which means that heat builds up much faster than it can dissipate. Which means it can get hot very quickly.

      This causes two problems: the electrolytes use hydrocarbons, which can burn, and the metals can form oxides in exothermic reactions. Nuclear reactor fuel rod cladding is made with zirconium, and what happens in meltdowns like Chernobyl and Fukushima is that the zirconium reacts with the oxygen in water to form zirconium oxide, releasing heat along the way

      1. Discharging the batteries over a few hours is a lot better than not having that ability. Even if that means a wrecked EV sits on the side of the road for three hours while a fire truck keeps watch.

    1. smaller batteries usually, but no less dangerous unless the battery chemistry is different. Lithium Ipon batteries use cobalt which is not all that stable and can cause runaway battery heat pretty simply, but that tech over say Lithium Polymer Gel batteries has superior range and we all know range is the biggest detractors with EV’s so it is a big trade off. still even a Lipo with salt water connecting things that should not be connected can still stop a heart very fast and over heat if the battery management system is not functioning as expected.

    1. Ship them to California since their stupid ideas force the rest of the nation to follow because how large their market is. That right there proves California is the problem not their dumb ass solutions.

      1. If we can drag you all kicking and screaming into doing things you should have been voluntarily working on 30 years ago, when we had time to work out the problems, I’m glad our economic power can occasionally do some good.

        1. Yes but as a person who trusts science I know every 20000 years there has been an iceage and every 20000 years there had been a heat climate change. All this thousands of years before humans ever existed. But yeah its all humans fault despite it has existed before the fish ever climbed out of the ocean.

          1. So you trust science but don’t trust the overwhelming majority of scientists who agree the current climate pattern is both unprecedented in geologic history and definitely being driven by human activity?

            2. Well show me where they say it. Show me who said it. And if legitimate I’ll ask why do you think the majority of scientists are wrong. I don’t dispute climate change, it’s happening. I claim and scientists agree it’s been happening since the earth was just a molten ball of lava. But I think you read the headlines and not the articles. In the 70s the next ice age was predicted, on 2000 there was a global warming frenzy. I apparently missed both. But now it is climate change which I agree with but it is Nothing new. Can’t text the whole argument but hey. Alternative hot and cold cycles are proven in history. The universe and the planets don’t actually stay at a set angle or distance from the sun. The sun doesn’t actually emit an exact amount of radiation 24/7. Given the properties of gravity other universes affect ours. It is estimated billions of tons of space debris have fallen on our planet and others in our solar system and like a basketball it affects the rotation of all the planets in our solar system.
              This is just a small tutorial on what affects our climate. But yeah I raise the temperature in my house by 2 degrees and drive 65 that’s what is causing climate change.
              So tell me the scientists you are talking to. Not environmental or weatherpersons. I probably know them. I’ll call them up. Give me your email I’ll have them email you that you aren’t looking at the big picture. But there is Nothing wrong with keeping pollution down it kills us insignificant little insects. BTW the human population may die in a million years but the universe will continue to exist.

  19. Those of you who live under HOA in any area subject to floods should seriously think about getting exceptions put in for outdoor parking/street parking because of this. Bad enough to lose a car, but car & house is way worse.
    Something to think about.

  22. Oh look! Another unintended problem with mass scale EVs that will need to be addressed. Though I’m sure someone will be by shortly to tell me how every vehicle on the road will be an EV by 2030.

  25. This fruit is hanging so low, I hardly even have to stretch out my arm to pluck it:

    “Spontaneous thermal runaway and chemical fires, just another way EVs are not that great for the environment.”

    1. Nononono strip mining rare earth metals is totes a green method of mining. And battery disposal will 100% be done correctly at Jimbo Jones’ Wrecker Yard.

      1. Hey! All those children in the Congo deserve the right to a job mining cobalt with there bare hands! How else are they supposed to feed themselves and get the tough thick skin needed to survive in the Congo??? Do you just expect all those children to go play and go to school and learn useless things like reading and writing??? You savage!

        /s

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