Good morning! Today on Shitbox Showdown, we’re heading to the San Francisco Bay area to check out a couple of broken Germans. But first, we’ll settle the score on Friday’s rare stickshifts:
Saab wins, again! I’d have to look back to check, which would be difficult because I don’t keep track, but I believe the defunct Swedish brand is undefeated. From the comments, a lot of you felt the Subaru was overpriced for its condition (I agree) and that the Saab was more worthy of attention (ditto). A nice European sports sedan in good condition is hard to beat.
But what about a nice European sports sedan in not-so-good condition? Well, they’re cheaper. But you have to be ready, willing, and able to get your hands dirty, because it makes no sense to pay someone else to fix these cars for you. Their values drop faster than Evel Knievel at Snake River, but parts aren’t all that expensive, which could make a broken German car a good value for a patient do-it-yourselfer. Let’s take a look at a couple of them now.
2004 Audi A4 3.0 Quattro – $1,350
Engine/drivetrain: 3.0 liter overhead-cam V6, six-speed manual, AWD
Location: San Francisco, CA
Odometer reading: 179,000 miles
Runs/drives? Runs, but…
Audi sedans are nice cars. They’re comfortable, good-handling, brilliant in inclement weather (especially, but not only, the Quattros), and feel solid and well-built. Unfortunately, they are also high-maintenance, fussy, and do not suffer ham-fisted attempts at repairs gladly, as the owner of this A4 found out. It allegedly ran and drove perfectly before a botched tune-up attempt: After replacing the plugs, coils, and some sensors, it “shakes violently” and there is “air coming from somewhere.” Uh-oh.
The A4 is Audi’s small executive sedan, meant to compete with the BMW 3 series and Mercedes-Benz C class. This is the B6 generation, closely related to the contemporary VW Passat, but nicer-appointed. The A4 was available with a wide range of gasoline and diesel engines; this example features a naturally-aspirated three-liter V6 good for 217 horsepower. And yes, it’s a manual, and a Quattro, so you have your choice of six possible forward gears to send that power to all four corners at once.
Apart from the noted engine woes, this car is in decent condition, especially for closing in on 180,000 miles. It’s dirty in the way that daily drivers usually get, lending credence to the seller’s claims that it ran fine before the fateful tune-up. It needs a good cleaning, and someone absconded with the Audi rings [Editor’s Note: We call them Auto Union rings around here, sir – JT] from the grille, but it still looks good.
In theory, you should be able to just get a thorough accounting of what the seller touched and didn’t touch, go through their work carefully, find where they went wrong, and get this car going again without much trouble. Of course, after that, you still have a high-maintenance Audi to contend with.
2001 BMW 525i Touring wagon – $2,000
Engine/drivetrain: 2.5 liter overhead-cam inline 6, five-speed automatic, RWD
Location: San Jose, CA
Odometer reading: 165,000 miles
Runs/drives? Runs, but…
I’m always a little nervous about posting a BMW, for fear of getting some detail wrong. Our resident newsman, Thomas Hundal, adores the brand, and will surely call me out on any mistake I make. Even worse, Mercedes Streeter owns this exact car, purchased from The Bishop, so I have to be doubly careful to check all my facts. I do, however, have direct personal experience with a BMW of this era with the same engine (an E46 3-series), so I do kinda know what I’m talking about.
For instance, I can tell you that the M54 inline six in this wagon is buttery-smooth and, while not a screamer, never feels underpowered. I can also tell you that it almost certainly leaks oil from the oil filter housing gasket unless someone replaced it recently, the VANOS variable-valve-timing system probably clatters like an old Caterpillar at high RPM, and the entire cooling system is made of a substance resembling hard candy.
Worse, the seller says this car is showing symptoms of a blown head gasket. As fragile as these cooling systems are, doing anything but starting it up for a second to verify that it does in fact run is inadvisable. Tow it home and get ready to tear it apart. At least you can fix all the other typical problems while you’re in there.
That’s not to say there isn’t a lot to like here. I’ve driven a couple of E39 BMWs over the years, and they do have excellent road manners and are very comfortable. This one shows some wear and tear inside, but as a California car, is unlikely to suffer from the rust problems seen elsewhere. And a wagon is always a nice thing to have. It’s not worth having someone fix it, but if you’re handy and willing to take stuff apart, this could be a worthy project. For all the things that need repairing, BMWs are not particularly hard cars to wrench on. You just have to wrench on them a lot.
I know a lot of you are going to turn up your noses at both of these cars. But I also know we have some seasoned wrench-turners in our audience, and today’s choices are for you. The inexpensive way to have a car like these is to do the work yourself. Which one are you willing to dig into?
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
I haven’t had coffee yet and thought the Audi had an 8-track player, umm I would run from either one although the Audi tempts me a wee bit
The Audi appears to be a case of “un-do, then re-do” the work (hopefully). But anything more will mean it’s time to assume the ‘service position’. Head gasket on the BMW? Nein, nein, nein! Small upside–it’d be a fine drivetrain recipient for Mercedes’ current ‘vagen.
An A4 with a working glovebox? Sign me up!
Huge wagon guy but auto and head gaskets means nope. Not a huge fan of the v6 but love my A4. Drivetrain is pretty solid, suspension is great, and it eats miles in any conditions. Hopefully it’s a bad component or maybe they broke a vacuum hose .
I really do like those BMW long-roofs, but he Audi appears to be the better condition car of the two, and likely needs less to make roadworthy again. It’s also $650 cheaper, and since I’d probably end up parking either one of these on the back slab and forgetting about it for awhile, that makes all the difference.
I went Audi based on the descriptions. Offer $1000, retrace the PO’s steps, and hope it is a simple fix. If so, it is a nice little car, maybe a flip opportunity? If not, scrap her and cut your small losses. Either way, we are talking F* it money, and going in with our eyes open.
I’m guessing that the Audi owner stripped out a sparkplug thread. Is that a big deal on an Audi? Probably – drilling, tapping and inserting a timesert is theoretically possible without removing the head, but I wouldn’t want to do it and removing the head would be a big job.
Maybe a head gasket sealer might work (and they actually do work most of the time), but it’s a more serious problem than the Audi has.
The Audi probably has more aftermarket support and may be easier to deal with if you have a VAG-COM scanner.
I call them olympic rings 😛
Head gasket? Cooling system issues? No frackin’ way.
The Audi’s issues could come down to a bad coil pack, which would take 3 minutes to fix. On the other hand, what if the owner cross-threaded a sparkalator? At worst that could mean a new head, and at the very least means a head removal, which I believe would require an engine removal, and while you’re at it you might as well separate the engine and transmission so that you can do the timing drive and water pump.
If you can’t fix it in one afternoon, it might be better to dump it.
The Audi seems to be the obvious choice. Neither are particularly desirable vehicles in their respective conditions. I figure the Audi shouldn’t be overly difficult to repair. Even a mechanically inept oaf like myself might have a shot at figuring that one out. After getting it running, I wouldn’t do any maintenance beyond oil changes. This isn’t a car that anyone should be making long term plans around, so why risk breaking something in the process? It could be a nice, cheap vehicle to drive for a year or two, and then a nice car to send to the crusher.
Audi. Probably an afternoons worth of troubleshooting can find the leak and hopefully get it repaired and running well again. I also feel that Audi makes some really good looking cars. New or old they never look dated or of an era to me.
I went with the Bimmer, but neither one of these is worth the effort. I own a B5 Audi A4 that’s not far removed from the B6. The fact that I will never own another Audi tells you all you need to know about my thoughts on Audis.
A wagon might be worth the effort, but not that one. It will require too much work and money for a car that’s just not worth it at the end.
No. Just a plain and simple no.
The degrees of neglect and other issues make both choices a fool’s game.
If I was looking for another headache then maybe. But if looking for a cheap headache, there is always a brick wall nearby…These are both crap and no amount of positive thinking will change that.
I’ll take the LongRoof.
If all fails, turn it out on Airbnb.
Have to say I’d do my Audi Duty and go with the four rings. The engine issue reads like an afternoon’s work to rectify, if that. On top of that, A4s are li’l sweeties to drive, even if, for my own reasons (mainly less weight in the nose), I’d prefer the turbo-four to the V6.
The BMW “six” is just plain magnificent when it’s not requiring a rebuild, but even if it were in decent shape, the rest of the car isn’t.
Ugh. I’ve owned both those brands of these eras. So, in my opinion, after you’ve set fire to the appropriate sized piles of cash to set them right, the BMW will be a “better” vehicle. That and I’ve promised myself I’ll never own another four ringed vehicle again. Ever.
Quattro and manual (plus I already own VCDS software) means it’s the Audi for me. Devil you know versus devil you don’t and all that. Blown head gasket and auto cancel out any hope for the long roof for me.
Yup. Rosstech VCDS FTW. I’ve torn into the 2.8 and 2.7Ts. The 3.0 I believe is the same block, so nothing too complicated. Also unlike the 1.8T of the era, no K03 to blow. Although I ran original K03s to 178k miles on my old B5 S4 (sold it for other reasons. The clutch and turbos we’re still good).
Audi for me. Nothing that can’t be diagnosed with a VCDS tool and smoke. The BMW? I just replaced the valve cover gasket on my wife’s 335 – right after the other oil leak at the oil filter housing, with the oil pan gasket still on the way. It’s 10 years newer than my old B5s were and leaks 4x the oil than both of them combined.
(Author’s note to the editor’s note: I meant no disrespect to Horch, DKW, or Wanderer; fine marques all.)
First, that if it is a 2001, it is an E46 not an E39 (pre-2000) as you referenced. The M54 was/is a glorious drive. That said, having owned and sold a similar one with 187K in Bronzit and an Avant decades ago. it is a toss-up. If it is the head gasket, that means a repair more than it is worth (even with today’s used car prices) The Audi could potentially be easily sorted, but, it could also require an investment more than worth.
Soooo, I am choosing the Audi only because of the seats of the wagon shows that someone did NOT know how to care for the car.
My mistake, it is an E39. But the E46 was basically same drive train.
I am a BMW fan and a wagon fan, and the E39 is one of the finest BMWs.
That said…
I do not like Auto Union. Not in a box, not with a mouse, not with a fox. I will not drive them here or there. I do not like them anywhere.
That said….
I think the Audi is correctable for less and the better purchase *for a car.* The E39 is a great chassis proposal for a drive-train swap (S62! 6MT! M5 Touring!) but I feel as if you’re buying a roller with the indicated issues.
You do not like them so you say, try them try them, and you may! Try them and you may, I say!
It pains me to say no to a BMW wagon, but alas…in this situation I am. I’ve always liked this generation of A4 styling, and the one after it as well. They’re not raucous sports sedans in the lower trims, but they are solid cars. They drive well enough, their interiors are pretty nice, and they’re comfy.
My mom had an 08 or 09 A4 convertible for a while that had the base engine and handling upgrades and honestly it was a pretty pleasant car. I believe the engine was an EA888 descendent/variant of some sort and it had enough power to have fun with. My family had a country place back then and teenage/early 20s Nsane managed to hit some speeds on the backroads near it in the A4 that will not be disclosed on the record. The car was shockingly stable at high speeds.
I also dented the hell out of the driver’s side door trying to impress a date in it in 2011. Most of my summer earnings that year went to fixing it, I lost my convertible privileges for years to come, and I soon learned that the woman I was dating actually had a serious partner the whole time and was seeing me as a curiosity on the side. Karma’s a bitch.
Later on my family sold the old farm for a waterfront spot about 20 miles away and I still have some secluded backroads down there that I do…stuff on today. Always within the confines of the law, of course. Anyway my nostalgia goggles in addition to the manual/Quattro setup have me running to the A4 here. For those wondering the convertible started leaking around 50k miles and was traded for an Allroad that my mother still has to this day, and my dad dailies an A6 with the supercharged V6. Audis run in the family, although tbd if I ever wind up in one.
08 or 09 Cab would be the last years of the EA113 (Cabriolet was a year behind so the 09 was the same as the 08 sedans/wagons). Great engine. First year EA888s weren’t great from what I’ve heard. My EA113 blew up though so who am I to talk.
I liked it and it served her well. It didn’t have any issues, but she barely drives and is acceleration averse when she does. I’m not as sure how it would have held up if I was beating the shit out of it every day, which I have a tendency to do. Her replacement for it has held up amazingly as well…but when my parents remind everyone that they’ve never had issues with their Audis I’m always quick to remind them that they’re the exception rather than the norm.
$2,000 for a 525iT with a blown head gasket and that wrecked interior? It seems with each passing day I realize that our man Bishop gave me a screaming deal on my wagon!
Head gasket on the BMW seems like too much of a time investment and the possibility of warped heads from the heat is also making me go with the Audi. For $1300 (and lets be honest you could get it for $1000) the investment is marginal and if it happens to be a fix more basic than a head gasket you’re coming out on top. Would make a good first beater for a young driver who wants to learn to drive stick.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a car in the showdown that I would actually want for myself. Maybe a pickup if the I foresaw a consistent need for one in the coming year. I always think about them as which one would be a better choice if I was a teen and wanted/needed a car.
I wouldn’t touch either of these except for getting them in a crusher but if i had to choose i’d go with the audi
I’m tentatively gonna go BMW wagon, mainly because wagon.
I figure that worst case scenario I can LS swap it and slap a stick in it.
Are either of these worth a damn even once repaired?
If you just want a project for its own sake, I respect that, but doubt you’d choose either of these low end models. And if you want a low maintenance daily, these obviously aren’t going to fit that bill either.
Get Andrea back in here to call these owners and tell them its over.
Andrea told them. That’s why they’re available.