There’s something about cars I’ve wondered about for a long time: when you’re in your car, are you in public or are you in private? I think this is an interesting question because I do not think the answer is clear at all. Even if we consult the law, it seems to be a gray area, but I’m not really all that interested in what some sweaty lawyer has to say – I want to know what my favorite sweaty Autopians have to say! So let’s take a moment and try and think this through.
On one level, we take our cars very much into public spaces: the streets. It’s hard to get much more public than that, open roads, surrounded by potentially thousands of other cars, or even more pedestrians, possibly under buildings with balconies, very much in the sights of many, many pairs of eyes and CCTV cameras and probably drones and satellites or whatever fresh surveillance hell we’ve decided to unleash upon ourselves. If you’re driving your car, you’re very likely doing it in a public space.
And yet, at the same time, how different is being in an enclosed car than being in some closed apartment or a room in a house? I’m not sure it is that different. It’s a private space, inside a car, and yet that private space is in public.
Some people have mentioned the darkness level of window tint as a factor, but I’m not sure how much that should be a criteria. Yes, it’s easier for people to see you pick your nose or give yourself an embarrassingly earnest pep talk if you don’t have window tint, but I think if you’re in your car, you’re still inside a private space, of sorts. I think I’d even apply this to a convertible with the top down, but perhaps with the application of relative speed.
Being in a convertible on the highway at 75 mph feels like a place where you could tell the people you’re with secret things, secrets you would not want to tell them at, say, an outdoor café table. The speed provides some semblance of privacy.
I know I’ve done some very private things in a car parked in a public location, even if that public location was chosen for as much perhaps illusory “privacy” as possible. But it at least seemed somewhat private? And what about those of us who have had jobs where you may have chosen to eat lunch in your car, to get away from everyone and everything; the inside of that car must have felt pretty private in those moments, yes? Was it?
But still, these are just some vague feelings; if you’re in your car, where are you? Are you in public or in private? And that’s not even going into the strangeness of how a car can be a location unto itself: telling someone you’re in your car is often enough information for your location, even without knowing what location your car is in.
It’s a compelling question; so what do you think? Let’s discuss! And argue! And then make up. In private.
Legally speaking, there are better choices to answer. But me, here in my car, I feel safest of all. I can lock all my doors. It’s the only way to live.
Well done!
I’m more than pleased that there is another person who has also made a Gary Numan reference 🙂
Legally speaking, there are better choices to answer. But me, here in my car, I feel safest of all. I can lock all my doors. It’s the only way to live.
Well done!
I’m more than pleased that there is another person who has also made a Gary Numan reference 🙂
The Law varies on the degree in which a car is private or public but the general consensus is that if its in public, its public, or semi-public. If its not it has the same protections as private space. Now what if you have a camper or van with window shades up, is that considered your home?
Campervan with windows covered is private space.
The Law varies on the degree in which a car is private or public but the general consensus is that if its in public, its public, or semi-public. If its not it has the same protections as private space. Now what if you have a camper or van with window shades up, is that considered your home?
Campervan with windows covered is private space.
https://www.cotzenlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/baldwin2.jpg
https://www.cotzenlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/baldwin2.jpg
It’s not binary.
If your car is in the public space (public roads) you have no expectation of privacy.
I can photograph your car, it’s plate and even the dash VIN. I can photograph anything visible inside the vehicle as well. These same rules apply to Police, the “plain view doctrine”, anything in plain view through the windows can be used for a probable cause investigation/search. Note that the reverse is also true, anything of a police car, in plain view, license plate, laptop screen etc. is recordable.
However, the interior space, trunk under the hood etc. is your “person” and protected by the 4th amendment. So machine gun on the back seat in plain view, probable cause, a machine gun in the trunk, even if someone knows it’s there (somehow) a warrant is needed. Extend this out any activity that is illegal in public, pot smoking, drinking, sex etc. all bad legally and frankly in bad taste.
The nice thing about an old Eldorado or Grand Prix is that there’s enough empty space around that V8 to host a small, but big enough to enjoy, sex-and-drug party under the hood. Which is the main reason why personal luxury coupes became so popular back then.
That made me genuinely LOL
You just boiled an 8 hour training down to one paragraph. Thank you, you have no idea how difficult it can be to teach this to new officers so they don’t step on someone’s rights.
Wait, you guys get training?
Obviously sarcasm, but it still astounds me the level of misunderstanding some officers have about Terry, Mimms or what RAS is.
However there is possibly an equal number of “law scholars” out there that misunderstand them as well.
You hit the nail on the head. That’s why I spoke with one of my old professors who is now a judge and asked him if he’d help out with new cadets, he’s been doing it for a couple years now so things are improving, at least at my department. Can’t vouch for anyone else’s though.
Arizona needs your help..
It’s not binary.
If your car is in the public space (public roads) you have no expectation of privacy.
I can photograph your car, it’s plate and even the dash VIN. I can photograph anything visible inside the vehicle as well. These same rules apply to Police, the “plain view doctrine”, anything in plain view through the windows can be used for a probable cause investigation/search. Note that the reverse is also true, anything of a police car, in plain view, license plate, laptop screen etc. is recordable.
However, the interior space, trunk under the hood etc. is your “person” and protected by the 4th amendment. So machine gun on the back seat in plain view, probable cause, a machine gun in the trunk, even if someone knows it’s there (somehow) a warrant is needed. Extend this out any activity that is illegal in public, pot smoking, drinking, sex etc. all bad legally and frankly in bad taste.
The nice thing about an old Eldorado or Grand Prix is that there’s enough empty space around that V8 to host a small, but big enough to enjoy, sex-and-drug party under the hood. Which is the main reason why personal luxury coupes became so popular back then.
That made me genuinely LOL
You just boiled an 8 hour training down to one paragraph. Thank you, you have no idea how difficult it can be to teach this to new officers so they don’t step on someone’s rights.
Wait, you guys get training?
Obviously sarcasm, but it still astounds me the level of misunderstanding some officers have about Terry, Mimms or what RAS is.
However there is possibly an equal number of “law scholars” out there that misunderstand them as well.
You hit the nail on the head. That’s why I spoke with one of my old professors who is now a judge and asked him if he’d help out with new cadets, he’s been doing it for a couple years now so things are improving, at least at my department. Can’t vouch for anyone else’s though.
Arizona needs your help..
Unless the cabin is open somehow, private! Even then, please don’t be a bunghole. I wanna hear “cool car” in the 411 with its windows down, but I don’t wanna hear catcalls and BS.
Windows up, though? Leave me alone.
Unless the cabin is open somehow, private! Even then, please don’t be a bunghole. I wanna hear “cool car” in the 411 with its windows down, but I don’t wanna hear catcalls and BS.
Windows up, though? Leave me alone.
Legally, a public space. You have no expectation of privacy in a vehicle.
Legally, a public space. You have no expectation of privacy in a vehicle.
Need to make a snarky comment:
If you are naked in a car you end up on a special list. If you are naked in your private home you do not. Cars are more public space.
Speaking from experience? Never mind, I don’t want to know the answer to that
Pretty sure if you’re prancing around naked in your well lit living room in front of a giant window that looks out onto a crowded, dark street you’re going to get on that special list*.
*Unless you’re super, SUPER hot, then it’s OK.
In New York City, people are fine walking around naked even with floor to ceiling wall to wall glass high up in the sky, even knowing that others have telescopes intended, obviously, for astronomical observations. Some people anyway.
Need to make a snarky comment:
If you are naked in a car you end up on a special list. If you are naked in your private home you do not. Cars are more public space.
Speaking from experience? Never mind, I don’t want to know the answer to that
Pretty sure if you’re prancing around naked in your well lit living room in front of a giant window that looks out onto a crowded, dark street you’re going to get on that special list*.
*Unless you’re super, SUPER hot, then it’s OK.
In New York City, people are fine walking around naked even with floor to ceiling wall to wall glass high up in the sky, even knowing that others have telescopes intended, obviously, for astronomical observations. Some people anyway.
Interesting Question. I would say that a car would be a public space mainly because they are operated on public road ways. Unlike a home that sits on private land. Police are able to pull you over and interact with you unlike if a police office comes to the door of your house you can just ignore them, unless they have a warrant or exigent circumstances.
Interesting Question. I would say that a car would be a public space mainly because they are operated on public road ways. Unlike a home that sits on private land. Police are able to pull you over and interact with you unlike if a police office comes to the door of your house you can just ignore them, unless they have a warrant or exigent circumstances.
Context.
If you’re sitting in your car at a stoplight/crosswalk/etc., you are in a public space along with those near you. You expect to make eye contact with pedestrians crossing the street, since they’re going to want to be sure they are seen. You also realize that the other vehicles stopped near you may have drivers looking at you (and you at them, perhaps).
Parked out in the corner of the parking lot? Anyone who is looking in is breaching your privacy, since they are intentionally seeking you out and looking into your space.
Parked next to someone who is getting out of their car or parking/unparking? People looking to see if someone is in the vehicle have fairly legitimate reasons (will you be opening your door? Or backing out as they open theirs?). Privacy is not expected.
Driving down the road, it’s a little muddied. You know people will be looking at your car when changing lanes, merging, passing, etc., but looking in is not necessarily happening. But it might be, and it’s hard to consider that a breach of privacy. You can also be relatively certain that folks in other vehicles aren’t listening to your conversations.
I also think that the social contract dictates that you do not stare into anyone else’s vehicle in most situations or try to look in more than to make eye contact with a driver in appropriate situations.
If a cop stops you? Anything not immediately visible is completely private without a warrant, but anything they can see is subject to plain view doctrine. At times, this doctrine is stretched too far (I have personally met a judge who ruled that an Altoids tin visible in a vehicle justified a warrantless search, since it’s a “known drug container.”), so I wouldn’t consider the privacy of even hidden things assured. I think it should be, but that’s another conversation.
Context.
If you’re sitting in your car at a stoplight/crosswalk/etc., you are in a public space along with those near you. You expect to make eye contact with pedestrians crossing the street, since they’re going to want to be sure they are seen. You also realize that the other vehicles stopped near you may have drivers looking at you (and you at them, perhaps).
Parked out in the corner of the parking lot? Anyone who is looking in is breaching your privacy, since they are intentionally seeking you out and looking into your space.
Parked next to someone who is getting out of their car or parking/unparking? People looking to see if someone is in the vehicle have fairly legitimate reasons (will you be opening your door? Or backing out as they open theirs?). Privacy is not expected.
Driving down the road, it’s a little muddied. You know people will be looking at your car when changing lanes, merging, passing, etc., but looking in is not necessarily happening. But it might be, and it’s hard to consider that a breach of privacy. You can also be relatively certain that folks in other vehicles aren’t listening to your conversations.
I also think that the social contract dictates that you do not stare into anyone else’s vehicle in most situations or try to look in more than to make eye contact with a driver in appropriate situations.
If a cop stops you? Anything not immediately visible is completely private without a warrant, but anything they can see is subject to plain view doctrine. At times, this doctrine is stretched too far (I have personally met a judge who ruled that an Altoids tin visible in a vehicle justified a warrantless search, since it’s a “known drug container.”), so I wouldn’t consider the privacy of even hidden things assured. I think it should be, but that’s another conversation.
It’s a public space, otherwise the sex wouldn’t be so exciting.
It’s not the location of the car, it’s the location of the gearshift…
So that time I was trying to climb in the sleeper of my semi and fell backwards on the stick was considered an indecent act? Oh boy. See semi trucks are weird. The cab is considered a workspace, while the sleeper is considered private, as long as the curtains are closed. Well, according to most companies. DOT will try to claim otherwise. But back to my point, would that be considered an indecent act in a public workspace?
Depends on how accidental on purpose that fall was.
I can neither confirm nor deny it was accidentally on purpose.
It’s a public space, otherwise the sex wouldn’t be so exciting.
It’s not the location of the car, it’s the location of the gearshift…
So that time I was trying to climb in the sleeper of my semi and fell backwards on the stick was considered an indecent act? Oh boy. See semi trucks are weird. The cab is considered a workspace, while the sleeper is considered private, as long as the curtains are closed. Well, according to most companies. DOT will try to claim otherwise. But back to my point, would that be considered an indecent act in a public workspace?
Depends on how accidental on purpose that fall was.
I can neither confirm nor deny it was accidentally on purpose.
This area is so grey, it looks like the inside of a flipped house. I’m going with private.
Tangentially related: I’m not a big fan of putting effort into hiding anything that I’m doing at any given time. For instance, we have a lot of windows in our house, and unless I’m actively trying to block out the light or not be seen, I don’t have blinds/curtains drawn. I know a lot of people who refuse to allow their windows to be uncovered for the fear of being seen. Like, why? Why even bother to have windows if they’re going to be covered up all the time. If you don’t want to see what’s going on in my house, don’t look inside. And if I realllllly don’t want anyone to see inside, I guess I’ll close the blinds, reluctantly.
This area is so grey, it looks like the inside of a flipped house. I’m going with private.
Tangentially related: I’m not a big fan of putting effort into hiding anything that I’m doing at any given time. For instance, we have a lot of windows in our house, and unless I’m actively trying to block out the light or not be seen, I don’t have blinds/curtains drawn. I know a lot of people who refuse to allow their windows to be uncovered for the fear of being seen. Like, why? Why even bother to have windows if they’re going to be covered up all the time. If you don’t want to see what’s going on in my house, don’t look inside. And if I realllllly don’t want anyone to see inside, I guess I’ll close the blinds, reluctantly.
I’m reminded of the Bud Light presents ads with the Mr in the Car Nose Picker, “why do you do it? Cause the windows are up, and you think we can’t see you….we can.”, “HOW YA DOIN’???”…
So public, unless you’re a cop, in which case you gotta tell me.
I’m reminded of the Bud Light presents ads with the Mr in the Car Nose Picker, “why do you do it? Cause the windows are up, and you think we can’t see you….we can.”, “HOW YA DOIN’???”…
So public, unless you’re a cop, in which case you gotta tell me.
I think we must first distinguish between public and in public.
To me, a car is like a front yard. It is private in the sense that if you wish to build a pond, dig a hole, store a rapidly-rusting out Jeep or whatever else in it, nobody is stopping you. (I’m aware of city ordnances, but let’s ignore those in favor of a more universal philosophical approach).
If you decide to put spikes on your dashboard, that’s your prerogative, with the double-edged sword that, being a private space, you’re liable for what happens to other people within your domain. You can attach spirit-healing crystals to your airbag, but if your passenger gets swiss-cheesed by high-velocity good-vibes shrapnel when you unfortunately collide with a jay-walking elephant, that’s on you. Nobody can stop you, and nobody can save you.
But much like your private front yard, your car is in public. If you used your front yard hole (mentioned in paragraph 1) to store the bodies of historical writers that you dug up and connected to a machine that reads tweets about their work so you could generate infinite electricity from their rolling, passers-by would likely witness this contraption and contact the authorities, who would then confiscate the celebrated author’s remains and likely lock you up for intellectual property infringement on Mr. Free Electricity, who pioneered this technology many decades ago before meeting a tragic and mysterious end in a motel room 2 miles from the patent office.
Likewise, if you were to build such a contraption in the passenger compartment of your car to replace the engine, there’s nothing preventing the general public from witnessing this machine and, likewise , contacting the authorities.
Unlike your home, where you can close the curtains and not have to interact with anybody, your car is a tool that interacts with its surroundings. When you are driving, you are outside, in public, and beheld to all the same rules that would bind you if you were walking around outside.
When a vehicle is stationary, with no view from outside, and serving the purpose of a domicile, as with a motorhome, it’s fully private, because at that time, it’s a temporary home. So, if you MUST harvest the rotational power of widespread misinterpretation of Huckleberry Finn, do so in a windowless compartment, or at least one with closed curtains.