I know it’s not exactly news to state that electric cars are heavy. Really heavy. Batteries are heavy things, and it makes you realize just how spoiled we are when it comes to fossil fuels. Think about it: liquid gasoline has about 100 times the energy density of a lithium-ion battery, and as that gasoline is used, the weight – about eight pounds per gallon – goes away. Not so with an EV battery, which weighs as much full as empty. Gasoline was such a huge springboard for humanity and automotive development, being energy dense enough to deal with wildly inefficient engines and crude overall design and still work. So, thank you, gasoline!
Lithium batteries are incredible technology, but if they have an Achille’s heel, it’s their weight. Well, and how slow they can be to charge. And the danger of thermal runaway. But that’s it! They’re still amazing. Amazing and heavy.
This heaviness isn’t really obvious, either; there’s a lot of modern EVs that aren’t that big, size-wise, but are actually quite dense, and if you actually look at the numbers, they’re, you know, big. But to really viscerally appreciate just how heavy this whole crop of modern EVs are, I think you need some kind of familiar comparison. And I don’t mean using a bunch of units of weight that somehow we’re expected to know, like 75 spiral-sliced hams or a six dozen full water cooler bottles – I mean comparing these new EVs to older combustion cars.
Especially smaller EVs, because the comparisons are even more dramatic. So, with that in mind, I’ve selected five small-to-midsize EVs and compared them with big-ass land yachts or vans that they, visually improbably, outweigh. And then I compared one full-size electric SUV to a modern small camper, just for fun.
Here, be wowed!
It’s weird to realize this, right? That Fiat 500e weighs more than the Dodge minivan? It’s like half the size! That Toyota with the dumb name is heavier than a freaking Town Car? A Tesla Model 3 weighs more than a Cadillac Fleetwood Brough-motherfucking-ham! And the Hummer being heavier than a whole freaking motorhome, even though it lacks a toilet or kitchen or beds? Madness! All of physics as I’ve understood it feels upended!
How can this be? But it very much is. EVs may be the future, and that future is looking very, very heavy.
And that is why EVs produce more pollution through brake dust and tire wear than their ICE and hybrid counterparts. They don’t really “save the environment”, they just chose a different poison.
That is such an old fashioned take. Nobody has bought an EV or hybrid because they think it ” Saves the environment” in at least a decade or more.
Either way, EVs are not better than ICE or hybrids at this point. 😛
lol what? it’s not exclusive sure, but there are still a shitload of people buying an EV solely for their image
The brake dust thing is simply wrong. The vast majority of braking in EVs is regenerative so they produce very little dust. As for tire particles, I don’t believe anyone has studied whether an EV’s tire wear (compared to an equivalent ICE vehicle) offsets the reduction in other pollutants (including brake dust!), but it’s sure interesting that nobody really cared about tire particles until it became a convenient attack on EVs designed to create FUD among people most likely to consider buying one.
The tire thing is because the instant electric torque is shredding tires not designed for instant massive torque. Don’t drive like my brother and tires wear just fine. That also helps with range.
Yeah, but who doesn’t love that excessive torque at every takeoff 🙂
Same reason Coyote Mustang tires wear out quickly….
Eh, maybe I was wrong. 😛
It’s actually mind blowing the OG Caravan was less than 3000lbs. I’ve never ridden in one- I imagine it must have been a tin can death trap.
The Chevy Venture was really bad too, until they gave it the pugnacious front end with better crumple zones.
Hopefully as battery chemistry improves, weight starts to trend back towards current ICE vehicles. Cost and range are some of the biggest factors preventing EV adoption, both of which will be positively influence by smaller, lighter designs.
Rode in many in my youth, they were underpowered, noisy tin cans.
It’s actually mind blowing the OG Caravan was less than 3000lbs. I’ve never ridden in one- I imagine it must have been a tin can death trap.
The Chevy Venture was really bad too, until they gave it the pugnacious front end with better crumple zones.
Hopefully as battery chemistry improves, weight starts to trend back towards current ICE vehicles. Cost and range are some of the biggest factors preventing EV adoption, both of which will be positively influence by smaller, lighter designs.
Rode in many in my youth, they were underpowered, noisy tin cans.
We have a 23 Mirage hatchback. It’s EPA rated at 43/36 MPG and curb weight is 2095 lbs. We have seen as high as 48 actual MPG with 2 adults and 2 kids in the car. So why exactly do people need one of these heavy little electric SUVs?
Because they want to “save the environment”. They don’t realize EVs also produce pollution through their increased brake and tire wear (not to mention getting the materials in the first place).
I don’t really care about electric vs gas, but to answer your question, the compromise that a Mirage creates is unreasonable for the majority.
My friend has an older Mirage with a 5 speed that I’ve driven around town and on the freeway. It is neither pleasant nor fun. It was loud and slow, handling was poor (I don’t think it even has a rear sway bar). I used to drive a Miata around SoCal so I’m no stranger to being a twerp among giants. However, the Mirage was worse because it felt like you were almost entirely helpless given the complete lack of power and the mushy handling. You just better plant yourself in the right lane and stay there.
Most people don’t enjoy driving like that. While I praise your ability to drive such a diminutive and economical car in the era of overstuffed whales, I doubt that you will find many contemporaries that would be willing to join you.
Ok it doesn’t handle so great but it’s not loud or that slow. It has no problem at all keeping up with traffic or merging onto the highway. It’s just fine in the fast lane doing 80-85. Mpg does drop to the 30s if you go that fast. It’s just a normal car really. We got the Ralliart model so I’m sure the stickers and mudflaps are adding at least 5 hp.
I have a 2012 Cruze Eco. It regularly matches its EPA 42 mpg highway rating in decidedly not EPA test conditions and beats it handily on slower 55 mph roads. It’s just fine for my uses.
I’m actively shopping for its replacement. Which will be a BEV. I drive enough where I’ll save money charging at home. The space utilization on some BEV’s is incredible. Way more interior room for the same exterior footprint is great. One pedal driving well is just as much a skill as shifting a manual well. The relative lack of noise on a BEV is something I want as well. That’s why.
Man GM did some cool stuff with the Cruze. I wish they sold more diesel Cruzes. I think a second gen would be such a neat accompaniment to my volt.
Skip the second gen. They’re tin cans in comparison to the first gen. The diesel first gen is basically a diesel Verano with a bowtie. Great cars for crushing highway miles. Be warned, the diesel is shoehorned into that engine bay. There’s no room to work. Unlike the physically small 1.4T, where everything is fairly easy to access.
Interesting… My Volt is based on the second gen (platform at least) and it’s a very solid feeling car.
Having batteries down the middle of the car in a heavily reinforced box will do that. The regular ICE only ones aren’t near as nice.
I’m willing to bet one of those heavy little electric SUV’s is a substantially nicer place to be than a Mirage. That’s coming from someone who likes the Mirage too. It’s sort of like saying, why on earth would anybody need a Coupe deVille when the Toyota Tercel gets 40 mpg and seats 5???
The Mirage is plenty good. I’m 6’2″ 190. The front and even the rear are roomy. It’s cheaper to operate overall than the electric cars.
No I understand its plenty good. My friend has a Mirage, and its a perfectly competent little car. I’m just saying that many/most people want more than perfectly adequate. I have a 2001 Chevrolet Tracker, which is excellent at what it set out to do. However, it didn’t feel as carlike or premium as the Rav-4s or CRVs at the time, so it failed to garner the success those vehicles had.
I don’t think the “cheaper to operate than electric” thing is really true though, heavily depends on where you live. I drive a PHEV, because my electricity is 7 cents/kwh. Gasoline was 4.75 a gallon last week. If I was to drive a pure gas car and spend the same on “fuel”, it would have to either get 181 mpg, or gas would have to cost 1.31 a gallon.
Gas is a little over $3 here. You are missing intital purchase price. Those little electric SUVs cost twice as much.
You are absolutely right for new, but maybe not for used. After incentives, tax rebates, etc my Volt cost roughly 11.5 out the door. Depending on trim, year, etc, a mirage around here costs about 8-12 ish. Cheaper, but over the lifetime of the vehicle a used EV/PHEV would likely cost less to operate.
Even after all that, there is still the factor that people are willing to pay more for a nicer car.
We have a 23 Mirage hatchback. It’s EPA rated at 43/36 MPG and curb weight is 2095 lbs. We have seen as high as 48 actual MPG with 2 adults and 2 kids in the car. So why exactly do people need one of these heavy little electric SUVs?
Because they want to “save the environment”. They don’t realize EVs also produce pollution through their increased brake and tire wear (not to mention getting the materials in the first place).
I don’t really care about electric vs gas, but to answer your question, the compromise that a Mirage creates is unreasonable for the majority.
My friend has an older Mirage with a 5 speed that I’ve driven around town and on the freeway. It is neither pleasant nor fun. It was loud and slow, handling was poor (I don’t think it even has a rear sway bar). I used to drive a Miata around SoCal so I’m no stranger to being a twerp among giants. However, the Mirage was worse because it felt like you were almost entirely helpless given the complete lack of power and the mushy handling. You just better plant yourself in the right lane and stay there.
Most people don’t enjoy driving like that. While I praise your ability to drive such a diminutive and economical car in the era of overstuffed whales, I doubt that you will find many contemporaries that would be willing to join you.
Ok it doesn’t handle so great but it’s not loud or that slow. It has no problem at all keeping up with traffic or merging onto the highway. It’s just fine in the fast lane doing 80-85. Mpg does drop to the 30s if you go that fast. It’s just a normal car really. We got the Ralliart model so I’m sure the stickers and mudflaps are adding at least 5 hp.
I have a 2012 Cruze Eco. It regularly matches its EPA 42 mpg highway rating in decidedly not EPA test conditions and beats it handily on slower 55 mph roads. It’s just fine for my uses.
I’m actively shopping for its replacement. Which will be a BEV. I drive enough where I’ll save money charging at home. The space utilization on some BEV’s is incredible. Way more interior room for the same exterior footprint is great. One pedal driving well is just as much a skill as shifting a manual well. The relative lack of noise on a BEV is something I want as well. That’s why.
Man GM did some cool stuff with the Cruze. I wish they sold more diesel Cruzes. I think a second gen would be such a neat accompaniment to my volt.
Skip the second gen. They’re tin cans in comparison to the first gen. The diesel first gen is basically a diesel Verano with a bowtie. Great cars for crushing highway miles. Be warned, the diesel is shoehorned into that engine bay. There’s no room to work. Unlike the physically small 1.4T, where everything is fairly easy to access.
Interesting… My Volt is based on the second gen (platform at least) and it’s a very solid feeling car.
Having batteries down the middle of the car in a heavily reinforced box will do that. The regular ICE only ones aren’t near as nice.
I’m willing to bet one of those heavy little electric SUV’s is a substantially nicer place to be than a Mirage. That’s coming from someone who likes the Mirage too. It’s sort of like saying, why on earth would anybody need a Coupe deVille when the Toyota Tercel gets 40 mpg and seats 5???
The Mirage is plenty good. I’m 6’2″ 190. The front and even the rear are roomy. It’s cheaper to operate overall than the electric cars.
No I understand its plenty good. My friend has a Mirage, and its a perfectly competent little car. I’m just saying that many/most people want more than perfectly adequate. I have a 2001 Chevrolet Tracker, which is excellent at what it set out to do. However, it didn’t feel as carlike or premium as the Rav-4s or CRVs at the time, so it failed to garner the success those vehicles had.
I don’t think the “cheaper to operate than electric” thing is really true though, heavily depends on where you live. I drive a PHEV, because my electricity is 7 cents/kwh. Gasoline was 4.75 a gallon last week. If I was to drive a pure gas car and spend the same on “fuel”, it would have to either get 181 mpg, or gas would have to cost 1.31 a gallon.
Gas is a little over $3 here. You are missing intital purchase price. Those little electric SUVs cost twice as much.
You are absolutely right for new, but maybe not for used. After incentives, tax rebates, etc my Volt cost roughly 11.5 out the door. Depending on trim, year, etc, a mirage around here costs about 8-12 ish. Cheaper, but over the lifetime of the vehicle a used EV/PHEV would likely cost less to operate.
Even after all that, there is still the factor that people are willing to pay more for a nicer car.
If you put in eight pounds per gallon of gasoline on your Cessna’s weight and balance sheet, you could get into trouble. Water is eight pounds per, but gas is reckoned at six.
If you put in eight pounds per gallon of gasoline on your Cessna’s weight and balance sheet, you could get into trouble. Water is eight pounds per, but gas is reckoned at six.
I get the point here, but calling a 500e heavy is not really accurate. What I think is amazing here is how light the old school caravan was. You know what else weighs 2910 lbs? A 2022 base model Corolla. Newer ones are up to 2955, so while yes it’s crazy that a subcompact weighs as much as a minivan, it’s because that old minivan is crazy light! A modern minivan like the Sienna weighs in at 4600lbs, or if you want to go a bit older, before they went all hybrid and gained a battery, the 2019 still weighed in at a minimum of 4400. All cars are a lot heavier now than they were 20+ years ago, not just EVs. I concede that all the others are less justifiable, but that one should have been left off this list IMO.
Probaly they have more material in order to avoid being death traps. Even with lighter extra strong steel, there is more of it.
Oh for sure, safety requirements have caused car weights to rise significantly, I understand the reasoning, my point is just that this comparison is apples to pineapples and is not entirely fair or helpful as a result. Old cars are just shockingly light compared to most newer ones.
I think the early minivans were not subject to passenger car safety standards. In the 80’s, those standards weren’t very high. I think that was right around the time when you’d start seeing shoulder belts for rear seat passengers. They really did not do well in crashes.
I get the point here, but calling a 500e heavy is not really accurate. What I think is amazing here is how light the old school caravan was. You know what else weighs 2910 lbs? A 2022 base model Corolla. Newer ones are up to 2955, so while yes it’s crazy that a subcompact weighs as much as a minivan, it’s because that old minivan is crazy light! A modern minivan like the Sienna weighs in at 4600lbs, or if you want to go a bit older, before they went all hybrid and gained a battery, the 2019 still weighed in at a minimum of 4400. All cars are a lot heavier now than they were 20+ years ago, not just EVs. I concede that all the others are less justifiable, but that one should have been left off this list IMO.
Probaly they have more material in order to avoid being death traps. Even with lighter extra strong steel, there is more of it.
Oh for sure, safety requirements have caused car weights to rise significantly, I understand the reasoning, my point is just that this comparison is apples to pineapples and is not entirely fair or helpful as a result. Old cars are just shockingly light compared to most newer ones.
I think the early minivans were not subject to passenger car safety standards. In the 80’s, those standards weren’t very high. I think that was right around the time when you’d start seeing shoulder belts for rear seat passengers. They really did not do well in crashes.
Thank you Torch – Admittedly, I still own only ICE vehicles, but have been keeping tabs on electrics as they evolve. I had not remotely considered how heavy these things actually are.
Stop keeping all the tabs and please share. Some of us do not have tabs because of all the tab hoarding. I do not believe that there should be those who have so many tabs while there are other who have so few.
As part of my campaign, I will ensure a new era in tab distribution. Gone will be the days of an imbalance of tabs among us all. While we don’t want to stifle the drive and creativity of those who will collect many tabs, there must be reasonable controls to discourage a wild disparity of tabs.
Vote for Dingus, tabs for all!!!
I love those tabs that make me see all kinds of cool colors!
Wait, didn’t I already vote for a Dingus last time? I know next election for Prime Minister, the choice is between red Dingus and blue Dingus (there’s also orange Dingus and green Dingus, but they don’t have a chance, nor does paler blue Dingus..)
I cannot be held responsible for having the vision to keep tabs while others have elected to while away the hours while not keeping their own tabs. Being prepared for the lack of tabs is something that was easily remedied with foresight.
Ummn. Yeah. As long as I don’t have to share my incognito tabs…
Thank you Torch – Admittedly, I still own only ICE vehicles, but have been keeping tabs on electrics as they evolve. I had not remotely considered how heavy these things actually are.
Stop keeping all the tabs and please share. Some of us do not have tabs because of all the tab hoarding. I do not believe that there should be those who have so many tabs while there are other who have so few.
As part of my campaign, I will ensure a new era in tab distribution. Gone will be the days of an imbalance of tabs among us all. While we don’t want to stifle the drive and creativity of those who will collect many tabs, there must be reasonable controls to discourage a wild disparity of tabs.
Vote for Dingus, tabs for all!!!
I love those tabs that make me see all kinds of cool colors!
Wait, didn’t I already vote for a Dingus last time? I know next election for Prime Minister, the choice is between red Dingus and blue Dingus (there’s also orange Dingus and green Dingus, but they don’t have a chance, nor does paler blue Dingus..)
I cannot be held responsible for having the vision to keep tabs while others have elected to while away the hours while not keeping their own tabs. Being prepared for the lack of tabs is something that was easily remedied with foresight.
Ummn. Yeah. As long as I don’t have to share my incognito tabs…
Heavier cars and old and weakened infrastructure, not a good combo.
Heavier cars and old and weakened infrastructure, not a good combo.
There’s an alternate universe where all the research dollars are being pumped into material science for the sake of making cars lighter to use less resources, instead of using more resources to use less of a particular resource. If that makes sense.
There’s also an alternate universe where humanity isn’t hellbent on traveling around in rolling living rooms all day, but I feel like the former is more likely than the latter.
There’s an alternate universe where all the research dollars are being pumped into material science for the sake of making cars lighter to use less resources, instead of using more resources to use less of a particular resource. If that makes sense.
There’s also an alternate universe where humanity isn’t hellbent on traveling around in rolling living rooms all day, but I feel like the former is more likely than the latter.
Even in a apples-to-apples comparison, with a short-range EV with a small battery pack, the heaviest 2015 Fiat 500 weights around 2500 pounds, the 500e from the same year is 2980. Almost 500 extra pounds for a 24kWh battery and the motor and stuff that go with it!
I thought about this too when I was driving through some area north of Toledo this weekend, there was a road with a 6000 lb weight limit for thru vehicles. I wondered how many EVs or even modern vehicles would even be allowed on that road. I guess it’s more than I thought, but the ones that do exceed the limit would be over by close to 50%.
Battery density has nearly doubled since 2015, and the 500e was always an oddball, being made by Bosch and all.
-A 2024 Kia Niro hybrid is 3200lbs, and the Niro EV is 3700lbs.
-The 2024 Hyundai Kona (SEL) is 3300lbs, and the Kona EV (SEL) is 3750lbs.
-A 2024 BMW 430i Gran Coupe is 3800lbs, and an i4 is 4600lbs.
(Bespoke EV platforms tend to be more weight efficient than powertrain-agnostic platforms, too, but then it’s no longer an apples-to-apples comparison.)
Even in a apples-to-apples comparison, with a short-range EV with a small battery pack, the heaviest 2015 Fiat 500 weights around 2500 pounds, the 500e from the same year is 2980. Almost 500 extra pounds for a 24kWh battery and the motor and stuff that go with it!
I thought about this too when I was driving through some area north of Toledo this weekend, there was a road with a 6000 lb weight limit for thru vehicles. I wondered how many EVs or even modern vehicles would even be allowed on that road. I guess it’s more than I thought, but the ones that do exceed the limit would be over by close to 50%.
Battery density has nearly doubled since 2015, and the 500e was always an oddball, being made by Bosch and all.
-A 2024 Kia Niro hybrid is 3200lbs, and the Niro EV is 3700lbs.
-The 2024 Hyundai Kona (SEL) is 3300lbs, and the Kona EV (SEL) is 3750lbs.
-A 2024 BMW 430i Gran Coupe is 3800lbs, and an i4 is 4600lbs.
(Bespoke EV platforms tend to be more weight efficient than powertrain-agnostic platforms, too, but then it’s no longer an apples-to-apples comparison.)
“EVs may be the future, and that future is looking very, very heavy.”
“Very very heavy” has been the path trodden by America for some time now.
“There’s that word again; ‘heavy’. Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the Earth’s gravitational pull?”
Yes,
It’s made Americans hyuuuuge too.
Hard to tell if Torch did that on purpose, but we can be assured David didn’t get it.
Reminds me of the scene in Hotel Transylvania where he mistakes humans getting fatter for being more powerful.
Why doesn’t Ross, the largest friend, simply eat the other five?
As if Americans actually tread any paths at all.
Fitness in America:
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2442/4012828551_2d1bc7ac16_z.jpg
“EVs may be the future, and that future is looking very, very heavy.”
“Very very heavy” has been the path trodden by America for some time now.
“There’s that word again; ‘heavy’. Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the Earth’s gravitational pull?”
Yes,
It’s made Americans hyuuuuge too.
Hard to tell if Torch did that on purpose, but we can be assured David didn’t get it.
Reminds me of the scene in Hotel Transylvania where he mistakes humans getting fatter for being more powerful.
Why doesn’t Ross, the largest friend, simply eat the other five?
As if Americans actually tread any paths at all.
Fitness in America:
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2442/4012828551_2d1bc7ac16_z.jpg
This is neat and all but modern. Gas cars are heavier than older cars too a 1987 VW Golf weighs 1988 lbs a 2024 weighs 3188 lbs which is also more than a 1984 caravan. It’s almost like all new cars are much heavier than old cars.
The other contributor is the safety structures – safety cells, crush zones, and door impact beams didn’t come cheap. Or light.
This is neat and all but modern. Gas cars are heavier than older cars too a 1987 VW Golf weighs 1988 lbs a 2024 weighs 3188 lbs which is also more than a 1984 caravan. It’s almost like all new cars are much heavier than old cars.
The other contributor is the safety structures – safety cells, crush zones, and door impact beams didn’t come cheap. Or light.
My wife’s ’23 Model Y is 10.5″ shorter, seats 5, and weighs 4,555 pounds. In comparison, our ’56 Chevy Nomad is 197.5″ long, seats 6, and weighed 3,620 pounds when new. The base weight of our ’21 F-150 SuperCrew is 4,584 pounds, just 30 more than the Model Y. Each one has its own pros and cons.
My wife’s ’23 Model Y is 10.5″ shorter, seats 5, and weighs 4,555 pounds. In comparison, our ’56 Chevy Nomad is 197.5″ long, seats 6, and weighed 3,620 pounds when new. The base weight of our ’21 F-150 SuperCrew is 4,584 pounds, just 30 more than the Model Y. Each one has its own pros and cons.
Those huge cars were filled with a lot of air.
Those huge cars were filled with a lot of air.