Good morning, Autopians! Today we’re taking a look at things that are German, a little bit ridiculous, and dressed all in black. No, not Sprockets; there are no monkeys involved. Well, there’s a little bit of monkey business, but you’ll see what I mean when we get there.
First, though, let’s take a quick look at yesterday’s results. The expected barrage of K-car animosity showed up in the comments. Good, good – let the hate flow through you. You’re all wrong, of course, but that is your right. Not that I begrudge anyone voting for the Cutlass; it’s a fine automobile, and one I’d be proud to own. But so is the LeBaron.
Also, I want to clarify my statements about the Cutlass’s 3.1 liter V6 engine. I meant no disrespect or ill will towards it; it’s actually a great engine. But it’s low-key great. Nobody sang its praises back when it was being stuffed under the hood of everything GM made, but in hindsight, it ended up being a reliable, durable powerplant. It’s just not something anyone can really have strong feelings about, like a Hemi or a 2JZ. It’s just sort of there. That’s all I meant.
All right; on to ze Germans. Yes, we have another convertible today, but it’s at least a fun sporty one. And it’s up against the archetypal hot hatch, albeit in slightly diluted four-door form. Lovers of low maintenance bills, I apologize; I’ll do some Toyotas and Hondas next week to make up for it. Here we go.
2000 BMW Z3 2.8 – $4,999
Engine/drivetrain: 2.8 liter dual overhead cam inline 6, five-speed manual, RWD
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Odometer reading: 86,000 miles
Runs/drives? Yep!
BMW’s Z3 was introduced in 1995. Originally powered by the 1.9 liter four-cylinder from the 318i, later versions including this one were powered by an inline six. The Z3 was a successor to the Z1, a limited-production roadster most notable for its doors – they slid downward into the rocker panels to open. It was really cool, but prohibitively expensive. The Z3, a much simpler design, had regular doors.
Or at least, it did when it left the factory. This one has since been modified with that most ostentatious of mods: the so-called “Lambo doors,” so named for their resemblance to the upward-opening doors on some Lamborghini models. These are popular among the tuner crowd, attention-seekers, and those who have to park in particularly narrow spaces. Some of these conversions can be undone easily; I don’t know if this is one of them.
If you can look past the silly doors, and the tacked-on rear spoiler, and the pile of junk in the passenger’s footwell, this Z3 is in pretty decent shape. It has only 86,000 miles on the odometer, the paint is shiny, and the registration is up to date. We aren’t given much more information about its mechanical condition, other than the fact that it’s faster than the one James Bond drove in Goldeneye, presumably because it’s a 2.8 instead of a 1.9. It’s a weird brag to make in a Craigslist ad, but then again, Lambo doors.
Z3s are neat little cars, sort of like Miatas on steroids. They aren’t typically this tacky, though. But they also aren’t usually this nice for this cheap. How much of what has been done to it can be undone is a mystery, and I suppose you don’t actually have to undo any of it.
2009 Volkswagen Golf GTI – $4,500
Engine/drivetrain: Turbocharged 2.0 liter dual overhead cam inline 4, six-speed manual, FWD
Location: Carpinteria, CA
Odometer reading: 206,000 miles
Runs/drives? Indeed
Take one run-of-the-mill economy hatchback, give it tighter suspension, bigger wheels, and an infusion of horsepower, and what do you get? A legend. Volkswagen’s GTI has been available in the US since 1983, way back in the Rabbit days. It’s gotten bigger and more powerful over the years, as well as way more complex, but VW has tried to keep the GTI true to its roots. And that includes its interior fabric.
Not all GTI generations had plaid seats; I seem to remember the MkII switching to stripey seats, but by the time this MkV rolled around, the plaid was back, and better than ever. This generation of GTI is powered by a turbocharged 2.0 liter twincam four, putting 197 horsepower to the front wheels through a six-speed manual. Sadly, it doesn’t look like the old trademark golf-ball-styled shift knob made the jump to the six-speed.
This GTI runs and drives well, and unlike so many of them, has remained stock except for an aftermarket touch-screen stereo. It has a lot of miles on it – over 200,000 – but this generation of Golf is nowhere near as fragile as the Mk3 and 4 were. It still has some issues, primarily water pump failures (why can’t anyone in the whole country of Germany design a decent water pump?) and ignition coils going out, but as long as you keep up on the maintenance, and keep it stock, word is that these are actually pretty reliable.
Cosmetically, it looks good for 206,000 miles. It’s straight, shiny, and not ripped up inside. I’m sure there are some things that don’t work – it’s still a VW – and there’s a little wear and tear, but generally, it looks all right, at least in the photos.
A lot of people are afraid of German cars, after hearing countless horror stories on the internet, but they really are great cars to drive, and they’re not really unreliable – just particular. When the maintenance schedule says you need to do something, you need to do it, not postpone it until something acts up. Otherwise, they will bite you in the ass, and if you can’t tackle the resulting repairs yourself, you will pay someone else, dearly. But learn to live with them on their own terms, and these cars will reward you with excellent handling, and a steadiness and surefootedness on the road that has to be felt to be believed. So what’ll it be: the roadster with the questionable modifications, or the hot hatch with the cool upholstery?
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
A lot of people are afraid of German cars, after hearing countless horror stories on the internet
Say no more, say no more…..
I’ve already got a plaid-seated manual shift GTI in my life and wouldn’t want to chance it at that mileage, but the Z3 is an automatic no-go – they took the time for the doors/mods and yet can’t clean out the car?
The Z3 would make for a good budget track car. As for the dumb Lambo doors, you’ll learn to live with them even if you’ll never love them. It’s not worth whatever it would cost to fix them IMO.
I was set to vote for the Z-3 until I saw the pics. They truly tell the sad story of what happened to this one. I can’t imagine a world in which the mods that were made to this don’t come back to bite even harder than a German tax normally would. And for the LOVE OF GOD, CLEAN OUT THE CAR BEFORE SHOOTING THE SALES PICS! So strong is my fear of everything surrounding this BMW, I clicked the button for a 200k GTI instead. Think about that.
Agreed, Z3 all day, everyday in stock form. However… those tasteless modifications and not even attempting to present it cleanly for sale speaks volumes as to why I went with the GTI. I’ve owned both and the only one I still have is the Z3. It is rock solid dependable, easy to work on, doesn’t have electrical gremlins, and parts aren’t that expensive when I work on it. The GTI was the opposite on all counts, but parts were slightly cheaper – you just had to change them more frequently for no good reason other than VW.
I know that Lambo doors can be swapped back, but every time I opened the doors between the time I purchased the car and the time I sourced the replacement hinges would be “farting in church” level embarrassment. Reluctant GTI..
200k Mk5 is an absolute no go for me. I’ll take the Z3 and park as far away from people I know so they don’t see the ridiculous doors
Too much mucking about with the Z3. If it was a coupe, I could maybe overlook it, especially given the low miles (if the odometer is to be believed), but not a roadster. I’ll take the VW beaster bunny, instead.
I’ll take the Z3. They are nice looking cars and fun to drive. I think this particular Z3 is actually a good deal. If you look beyond the stupid doors and the garbage in the passenger seat, this car actually looks to be in decent condition. The relatively low mileage is also a plus. If this car had normal doors and was clean, it would be an absolute steal at $5,000. Even with the dumb doors, it is still a good purchase at that price.
Was all set to vote “both!” in a masochistic sort of way. Until I saw those doors, so it’s GTI for me. I wouldn’t necessarily call the Mk5 reliable (I think that term is best saved for the Mk7), but after updating a few problem areas it can approach that though it will never be Honda or Toyota “reliable “. I am a glutton for VW punishment and loved our MK7 GTI (handed down to child) and am well versed in Mk5-ness as the kids and I rebuilt a Mk5 Jetta GLI for them to drive in high school and college, and that Mk5 GLI (same underpinnings as GTI) is more fun than it has any right to be. so 200k on a stock Mk5 GTI doesn’t really scare me.
I’ve got 157k on my 2009 GTI. Previous owner did the stage 1 tune and I love the thing.
My water pump is currently leaking though.
We bought the Mk5 GLI with a seized engine. Before we installed the new-to-us used low-mileage engine, we replaced the mechanical water pump with an aftermarket version with metal impeller. The electric water pump on the purchased engine leaked (possibly damaged in shipping), so we ended up using the original high-mileage electric water pump.
Mine has Aluminum CRP water pump and thermostat assembly…so maybe I only have a leak at a union or tube. I just can’t make the time to dismatle things enough to get to the source of the leak.
This is a tough one. The Z3 is absolutely roached out and tooned into oblivion. Aftermarket supercar doors are quite possibly the single dumbest, most classless, juvenile modification that can be done. I hate them.
The GTI is…well, a GTI. I like what they stand for and I owned one but I don’t understand why they’re put on such a pedestal. They’re just fun dailies with a good form factor….but the fine print is that VW nannies them into oblivion stock, they do NOT respond well to being driven anywhere above 7/10ths, they’re incredibly fussy/unreliable, and plain to a fault. However they are great mod platforms if that’s your thing. It isn’t mine, but the factory internals are pretty stout. Just make sure you start with a DSG or a beefed up clutch if that’s your plan.
IMHO they’re good but not great cars and a middle of the pack choice in the sport compact segment. Hyundai and Honda really changed the game and VW has a lot of catching up to do….and this example has done the equivalent of 500,000 miles in a non VAG product.
At the end of the day this is still a good price for a Z3 and it’s the correct kit for a BMW…rear wheel drive, six in line cylinders, and manual. I’d set aside a little extra money to de-toon it then use it as a fun weekend car. I have a feeling that these are going to go up in value pretty soon so get it while you can.
“Tooned” is the best thing I’ve heard today!
I like Z3s, and my mind always goes to James Bond when I see one (the pale blue on tan colorscheme featured in the film is best, but the car looks good in black as well). I have a colleague who owned one, and he absolutely loved it.
I also like GTIs. My uncle had a Rabbit when I was a small child, and it was the first vehicle that I learned to identify on the road. I liked their “My Fast” commercials that they ran for this generation and even have a little plastic “Fast” character sitting on my desk.
But both of these cars carry some serious drawbacks.
A 200k+ mile VW? I know the company’s reliability wasn’t that bad at this time, but that’s still cause for concern.
And those doors on the BMW… They are what they are, I suppose. I would personally feel embarrassed any time I’d get in and out of the car, but they are a significant modification and would likely be a big selling point for the right buyer (And in Look-at-Me Southern California, I’m sure there’s someone out there who really wants billionaire doors). But what about all the garbage filling the passenger footwell? I suppose with those doors the owner doesn’t have to worry about any passengers wanting to ride with him, but you gotta clean that up when you’re trying to sell the car.
So I have to go with the VW, but I’m more rating the sellers here than I am the cars. The GTI seems to be well taken care of while the Z3 looks like it was abused.
The BMW has probably been treated terribly, but not 120k miles of terrible.
Never cared for hot hatches anyway, a fast version of a boring economy car is still a boring economy car with a less comfortable ride.
“I choose not to
racevote.”No way in hell I can vote for that Z3. The mods are atrocious, the seller is an idiot, and I don’t believe for a second that this car was maintained even close to properly.
On the other hand, a GTI with 200k on the clock just seems like a maintenance nightmare, no matter how well it was maintained.
Today’s choices are Kobiyashi Maru.
I like the Z3 more than I should, so I voted for that
Assuming what’s under the hood hasn’t been Bubba’d into incoherence, I’d take the Z3. The original 1.9 engine was what I had in my 318i, which lasted for 300,000 miles (and only died due to a transmission failure; an automatic).
The 2.8 in the US markets is overbuilt and dumbly reliable and – perhaps more importantly for the potential enthusiast – has tons of pretty good parts readily available and inexpensively. These aren’t difficult to work on, either – you can do all the routine maintenance tasks with the half-a-dozen tools that are kept in the trunk tool kit (which, sadly, BMW has done away with). The suspension isn’t terribly difficult to keep tight, either.
I’d be far more worried about typical convertible snafus (like water intrusion) and other silly mods (those doors!) than I would about the drivetrain bits here.
I’ll let it slide, but you’re on thin ice, Tucker
“Today we’re taking a look at things that are German, a little bit ridiculous, and dressed all in black. No, not Sprockets; there are no monkeys involved. Well, there’s a little bit of monkey business, but you’ll see what I mean when we get there.”
Hmm, I wonder if Susan is still on the dating market…
I can’t vote for either. Z3 would win without the door mods.
That Z3 is at a nice price.
I really like and want a Z3. Just not this one!
Give me the hatchback in this case.
I would feel llike such a dunce cap every time I opened those doors, no thanks.
That gen of GTI is as bulletproof as VW had made in the last 20ish years, so despite the mileage you shouldn’t have too much issue keeping it on the road. I’m just not sure I would feel comfortable enough driving that GTI the way a GTI should be driven.An uneasy for the GTI I guess. At least it has the tartan seats
Since the GTI is over 200k, i am sure its had the timing chain guide upgrade and that damn near the price of the car. Lets ride!
My sister had a black 2.8 Z3 and it was a good car, despite its incessant whining that it wanted a God handle spoiler and Lambo doors.
I don’t even want to think about what else has been done to that poor Z3.
I’m a VAG guy and I almost went BMW on this one until I saw the state of that example. Oof. Ignoring everything else, the powdercoated stockies are always an immediate red flag.
Easy win for the veedub.
I’m willing to bet those wheels are plasti-dip’d, not powdercoated.