Classic Car Club Manhattan recently invited legendary executive Bob Lutz to have a chat over dinner with old pal and Autopian contributor Bob Sorokanich. As you might expect, with an automotive career stretching over half a century, he’s got some quality stories to tell.
If you’re not familiar with Lutz’s career, just know that it was (mostly) a glittering one. He also didn’t discriminate, working in top executive roles at all of the Big Three automakers in the US. He was executive vice president of Ford, later moving on to become the president and vice chairman of Chrysler Corporation. He later wound up as the vice chairman at General Motors to complete the trio.
As seen on YouTube, Lutz used the chat as a chance to talk about some of his favorite projects over the years, as well as his insights into the auto business. He celebrates unique and standout products in the auto space, and decries the dire lack of real car enthusiasts in the industry.
One of the biggest standouts in Lutz’s career was the Dodge Viper. The V10-powered roadster was an unlikely project that promised to be the first American car with 400 horsepower. Some might have called it a distraction for Chrysler amidst a difficult period, but Lutz doesn’t see it that way at all. In fact, he credits the Viper with revitalizing the broader Chrysler brand. The company was seen as troubled, and barely able to produce more than its humble front-wheel-drive K-Car. The Viper was key to flipping the script, proving to the media and the public that the company could do so much more.
He explains how this affected Chrysler’s dealings with banks at the time. The company was facing possible bankruptcy, with banks looking dimly on the company’s future prospects. Lutz was meeting with the banks to try and shore up the finances, and the Viper became a hot topic. “I was in a German bank which was reacting with difficulty, and they said our chairman would like to speak with you in private,” explains Lutz. “The Chairman said, uh, Mr Lutz… this red sports car, what do you call it?” says Lutz. “I said the Dodge Viper.” The hot new roadster proved crucial. “[He says] ‘Mr Lutz, would you make sure I can buy one, please?’ and that secured the revolving credit agreement with them,” laughs Lutz.
Another bank was already impressed with the future prospects for Chrysler, but they had a tough question. They wanted to know what Lutz would cut if profitability didn’t meet expectations in the next few years. “I thought, well, I’m dealing with bankers here, so I’m going to give the bean counter’s answer,” he says. “I said, sir, without question, the most frivolous product in our portfolio is the Dodge Viper and that’s what we’d cut.” And yet! “The banker says, wrong answer! Wrong answer! That’s the one that’s driving investor enthusiasm!” laughs Lutz.
Making a car like the Viper is hard enough, but succeeding on a barebones budget requires making the right moves. “You gotta collect the right people,” says Lutz. “Many engineers in automobile companies could be working for Hotpoint or Shark vacuum, they wouldn’t care—they put in their day behind the work station, they go home.” He found that the real car enthusiasts in the company were more valuable to a project. “That difference in productivity, it’s three-to-one,” he says. “The whole Viper team, we actually interviewed them to make sure we had the right guys.” Out of 1,000 volunteers, interviews whittled the Viper team down to just 80 people. “They got the job done in a little over two years,” he says.
It was a recurring theme throughout Lutz’s career. “One of my biggest shocks when I joined a car company was there are almost no car guys in car companies,” says Lutz. “These guys could be making washing machines or vacuum cleaners, it’s all the same to them. It’s units, units.” For many, the automotive business really is just a business. “But in every car company, there is a secret network of true car guys,” he explains. “You find out who those guys are, you work with them, and you can create breakthrough products.”
He puts this down as a root cause of the problems faced by many contemporary automakers. “They tend to go by momentum, and they go with the decision that is close to okay and consumes the least capital, and that’s everybody’s favorite decision,” he explains. “Nobody starts at the other end and says what is it that’s really going to excite the customers, what is it that’s going to make us best in class?” He finds this methodology key to making products that aren’t just good, but are exceptional. “Once you’ve defined that, then you work backwards, and you try to trim the investment, and try to massage it a little bit to make it financially feasible.”
“The trouble is most automobile companies start the other way,” says Lutz. “They say, what is conveniently affordable, and now let’s make it as good as we can?” He preferred to follow his own process during his long career. “My way has always turned out to be a little bit more expensive than the momentum way, but I have a track record of producing vehicles that are infinitely more profitable than the momentum theory. ”
He puts much of it down to who’s in charge. “Good finance guys are a dime a dozen, but good car guys that are capable of running [a car company] are rare,” he says. “You give me a car company that’s run by a car guy, and one that’s run by finance, the car-guy company is gonna win every time.”
Naturally, the Plymouth Prowler came up for conversation, the brainchild of storied designer Tom Gale. “He was a hot rodder at heart,” says Lutz. “He was convinced it was going to be second only to the Viper.” In a similar way, the Prowler was also developed as a fast, low-cost program, and the team raided the parts bin to make it happen on budget. The Prowler got a modified version of the company’s front-wheel-drive transaxle, converted to work for a rear-wheel-drive layout. “That’s what dictated the maximum engine size being a V6,” says Lutz. “It couldn’t take the torque of the V8, which was a shame, because that car really needed a V8.”
While the Prowler didn’t go on to do big numbers, Lutz nevertheless believes it had an important role to play. “It was another one of those halo vehicles that caused the media and the public to say, ‘who are those guys?'”
Lutz also discussed differing management styles across the industry, contrasting his approach to that of former Volkswagen CEO Ferdinand Piech. In the 1990s, Piech had apparently told Lutz that he secured excellent panel gaps on VW product by simply threatening to fire those below him if it wasn’t sorted. Lutz tells the story with a laugh, noting that the American management was typically a touch less dictatorial. “The best car guy I’ve ever met in my life,” says Lutz. “But I wouldn’t have wanted to work for him. He was a despot.”
Lutz’s approach at GM was more collaborative. An initial investigation suggested achieving 4 mm panel gaps would cost the company $200 million, which wasn’t in the budget. GM couldn’t spend that, yet weeks later, the panel gaps had drastically improved. “I said, how the hell did this happen?” says Lutz. It turned out that a casual conversation with the workers on the hemming and stamping lines made all the difference. “They said, oh, you want four millimeter gaps?” laughs Lutz. “We know how to do that, it’s just nobody’s ever asked for it before!”
Lutz doesn’t just focus on the high-performance stories, either. He notes that his favorite program was something altogether more sedate. “The [Chevy] Volt was my favorite program, because it stretched the limits of what GM was capable of,” he says. “Doing new gas engines is easy … but doing a series hybrid where you’re on electric propulsion all the time … nobody had ever done that before.” He also notes the public perception issue the brand had around lithium-ion batteries, which he says Toyota was more than happy to talk down in those days. In an argument between GM and Toyota, he notes it was difficult for the American brand to sound like it was making the right reliable choice given the Japanese brand’s reputation.
Ultimately, an hour only barely scratches the surface of Lutz’s broad experience in the industry. Having started his automotive career all the way back in 1963, he saw the rise and fall of giants. It’s always amazing to get insights on what goes on in the sprawling campuses of major automakers, and how that translates into the cars we see on the road every day.
Image credits: Dodge, Chrysler, GM, Plymouth, Classic Car Club Manhattan via YouTube screenshot
I don’t know, I’d also ask what automakers are doing to create and maintain enthusiasts. Building an entire model range of crossovers isn’t helping that. Letting one or two enthusiast models hang around aging without meaningful updates and virtually zero marketing doesn’t help, nor does bundling desirable features into enormous options packages, nor does allowing dealers to slap huge adjusted markups on everything, nor does not building enough to have saleable inventory. It varies by automaker, but at least some of that affects pretty much everyone
In a nutshell, this is one of the factors that has made the Japanese manufacturers so successful over the years. Let people influence the things they know about.
In a nutshell, this is one of the factors that has made the Japanese manufacturers so successful over the years. Let people influence the things they know about.
We’ve reached a point in vehicular design where almost all models have become a variant of the same greyscale two-box pod on wheels with similar styling clues and on-road performance, dulling consumer expectations to the point where any model deviating from this formula is considered an unacceptable risk for many automakers. At this point, something as simple and once commonplace as vertically oriented taillights on a CUV would be considered a radical styling move.
The sameness of the market makes brands like Mazda an outlier for daring to inject a touch of handling prowess and extra performance into its CX series and the Dodge Hornet a big mistake for Stellantis failing to follow Mazda’s lead and make standard the usual commuter-spec 3 or 4cyl engine compact CUV customers have come to expect at a lower price point.
We’ve reached a point in vehicular design where almost all models have become a variant of the same greyscale two-box pod on wheels with similar styling clues and on-road performance, dulling consumer expectations to the point where any model deviating from this formula is considered an unacceptable risk for many automakers. At this point, something as simple and once commonplace as vertically oriented taillights on a CUV would be considered a radical styling move.
The sameness of the market makes brands like Mazda an outlier for daring to inject a touch of handling prowess and extra performance into its CX series and the Dodge Hornet a big mistake for Stellantis failing to follow Mazda’s lead and make standard the usual commuter-spec 3 or 4cyl engine compact CUV customers have come to expect at a lower price point.
The problem isn’t the lack of enthusiasts in the industry, it’s the lack of enthusiasts in the market.
As do many CEOs, Lutz focuses on what he knows, which is what he controlled – the firms. But the bigger picture is more nuanced.
During his tenure(s), the U.S. auto market became vastly more competitive and car companies had to focus on delivering what the biggest groups of consumers wanted. There just wasn’t enough slack in the market to delve deeply/for a long time into the stuff that we here all love; to produce something fun and cool that might lose some money overall but appeal to something higher than simple transportation.
The problem isn’t the lack of enthusiasts in the industry, it’s the lack of enthusiasts in the market.
As do many CEOs, Lutz focuses on what he knows, which is what he controlled – the firms. But the bigger picture is more nuanced.
During his tenure(s), the U.S. auto market became vastly more competitive and car companies had to focus on delivering what the biggest groups of consumers wanted. There just wasn’t enough slack in the market to delve deeply/for a long time into the stuff that we here all love; to produce something fun and cool that might lose some money overall but appeal to something higher than simple transportation.
Lutz is an amazing guy. Years ago, I had a chance to take a short drive with him in an early Viper prototype. He had the rare ability to make a sound business case for a nutball idea that other U.S. car execs wouldn’t have touched with a 10-foot pole. Hence the Viper.
If more were like him, perhaps we’d have more actual cars coming off the assembly lines and those who love driving would still have choices in the marketplace.
Lutz is an amazing guy. Years ago, I had a chance to take a short drive with him in an early Viper prototype. He had the rare ability to make a sound business case for a nutball idea that other U.S. car execs wouldn’t have touched with a 10-foot pole. Hence the Viper.
If more were like him, perhaps we’d have more actual cars coming off the assembly lines and those who love driving would still have choices in the marketplace.
What’s hurting the car industry is the fuckin’ high prices relative to wages.
50 years ago cars were cheap enough (relative to incomes) that young people could afford to buy a sweet two-door coupe. Then, two years later after they got married and had a kid, they’d get the 4-door sedan. Two years and another kid later, they got the station wagon.
While yes, cars last far longer today then they did back then, part of it was because people could simply afford to buy a car for a shorter period of time in their life. Now, because people need a car to last longer in their life, the boring CUV reigns supreme. The CUV fits your lifestyle for longer, all while being more boring.
Manufacturers: make desirable fun car, charge essentially the same as the median household income or more.
Dealerships: add $10,000 to that price
Customers: this car is really cool but I can’t afford it, I’ll get the 35k CUV
Desirable car: sits on lot for 18 months
Manufacturers: SEE?! NO ONE WANTS COOL CARS ANYMORE?!
Corporate greed has ruined enthusiast cars. It’s really that simple. Until prices come down, it’s not changing.
Add to it the simple stocking preferences of car dealers…
We’ve got two enthusiast cars in stock, they are both grey, and the highest trim packages.
Meanwhile, we’ve got four dozen RAV4s across all trim levels, thirty Corolla Crosses, sixty Highlanders…
Hah I was looking into either the GR Corolla or a Miata RF as a fun DD but really do not think I could justify paying 40k+ for either of them and that is before taxes and stupid dealer markups/add one.
That’s one of the reasons I wound up with my Kona N. Got $500 off MSRP, 2.75% financing, and was out the door for well under 40k with all the taxes and fees. I could afford to go out and drop $50,000+ on something crazier if I really wanted to…but why would I?
Cars are depreciating assets and mine don’t live easy lives between commuting/living in DC and going to the track a couple times a year. Would it be cool to have an M2, C8, CT4V Blackwing, etc?
Of course it would, but it would also be throwing money away. They’d spend like 85% of their time in DC traffic, inevitably wind up with an assortment of bumps and bruises, catch the eye of every car thief in a 10 mile radius, etc. It’s just not worth it to me.
Maybe my financial situation will change in the next 5-10 years but I just don’t see the point of balling out on a car right now unless you’re making fuck you money…which I am not.
I currently drive out to rural Indiana so having a nice car to DD wouldn’t be to bad only major thing to worry about is deer but wouldn’t have to worry to much about fender benders or dinks and dents from other drivers. Last year though I was commuting I into Manassas VA and yeah no way in hell I would want to daily a car I care about there. I swear DC metro has some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. Also before taking the job in VA I almost pulled the trigger on a fully loaded brand new Polestar 2 and was going to trade in my FJ and I am really glad I did not was going to be over 60k on a car that used can now be found under 30k so I am glad I didn’t have to deal with that depreciation.
So right now I am just in a waiting situation as the house in VA is for sale and yeah cannot afford to have that mortgage + my Indiana mortgage and to add a new car on top of those. Though I have never bought a brand new car everything I have ever gotten has been used so I will probably do the same thing once the VA house is sold.
There is also the issue of where do you get to USE all that performance? OK you bought a high powered performance car, now have fun getting terrible fuel economy while sitting in bumper to bumper traffic.
My Kona N’s lifetime fuel economy is horrendous. It’s currently at 20.1 MPG. And that’s a turbo 4 cylinder. I’d probably be getting single digits most of the time if I had a V8 or maniacally boosted 6. That would get to me both morally and financially…and if I didn’t enjoy track driving so much there’s a very good chance my next car would be an EV or hybrid.
Honestly I may just buy a cheap-ish electrified daily next time and either keep my Kona N as a track car or bite the bullet and do a dedicated track build with an aging Corvette or something. The one car solutions always come with huge compromises and none of the fastest guys I see at the track are driving anything with 4 doors.
What’s hurting the car industry is the fuckin’ high prices relative to wages.
50 years ago cars were cheap enough (relative to incomes) that young people could afford to buy a sweet two-door coupe. Then, two years later after they got married and had a kid, they’d get the 4-door sedan. Two years and another kid later, they got the station wagon.
While yes, cars last far longer today then they did back then, part of it was because people could simply afford to buy a car for a shorter period of time in their life. Now, because people need a car to last longer in their life, the boring CUV reigns supreme. The CUV fits your lifestyle for longer, all while being more boring.
Manufacturers: make desirable fun car, charge essentially the same as the median household income or more.
Dealerships: add $10,000 to that price
Customers: this car is really cool but I can’t afford it, I’ll get the 35k CUV
Desirable car: sits on lot for 18 months
Manufacturers: SEE?! NO ONE WANTS COOL CARS ANYMORE?!
Corporate greed has ruined enthusiast cars. It’s really that simple. Until prices come down, it’s not changing.
Add to it the simple stocking preferences of car dealers…
We’ve got two enthusiast cars in stock, they are both grey, and the highest trim packages.
Meanwhile, we’ve got four dozen RAV4s across all trim levels, thirty Corolla Crosses, sixty Highlanders…
Hah I was looking into either the GR Corolla or a Miata RF as a fun DD but really do not think I could justify paying 40k+ for either of them and that is before taxes and stupid dealer markups/add one.
That’s one of the reasons I wound up with my Kona N. Got $500 off MSRP, 2.75% financing, and was out the door for well under 40k with all the taxes and fees. I could afford to go out and drop $50,000+ on something crazier if I really wanted to…but why would I?
Cars are depreciating assets and mine don’t live easy lives between commuting/living in DC and going to the track a couple times a year. Would it be cool to have an M2, C8, CT4V Blackwing, etc?
Of course it would, but it would also be throwing money away. They’d spend like 85% of their time in DC traffic, inevitably wind up with an assortment of bumps and bruises, catch the eye of every car thief in a 10 mile radius, etc. It’s just not worth it to me.
Maybe my financial situation will change in the next 5-10 years but I just don’t see the point of balling out on a car right now unless you’re making fuck you money…which I am not.
I currently drive out to rural Indiana so having a nice car to DD wouldn’t be to bad only major thing to worry about is deer but wouldn’t have to worry to much about fender benders or dinks and dents from other drivers. Last year though I was commuting I into Manassas VA and yeah no way in hell I would want to daily a car I care about there. I swear DC metro has some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. Also before taking the job in VA I almost pulled the trigger on a fully loaded brand new Polestar 2 and was going to trade in my FJ and I am really glad I did not was going to be over 60k on a car that used can now be found under 30k so I am glad I didn’t have to deal with that depreciation.
So right now I am just in a waiting situation as the house in VA is for sale and yeah cannot afford to have that mortgage + my Indiana mortgage and to add a new car on top of those. Though I have never bought a brand new car everything I have ever gotten has been used so I will probably do the same thing once the VA house is sold.
There is also the issue of where do you get to USE all that performance? OK you bought a high powered performance car, now have fun getting terrible fuel economy while sitting in bumper to bumper traffic.
My Kona N’s lifetime fuel economy is horrendous. It’s currently at 20.1 MPG. And that’s a turbo 4 cylinder. I’d probably be getting single digits most of the time if I had a V8 or maniacally boosted 6. That would get to me both morally and financially…and if I didn’t enjoy track driving so much there’s a very good chance my next car would be an EV or hybrid.
Honestly I may just buy a cheap-ish electrified daily next time and either keep my Kona N as a track car or bite the bullet and do a dedicated track build with an aging Corvette or something. The one car solutions always come with huge compromises and none of the fastest guys I see at the track are driving anything with 4 doors.
They continue to take the things away that make anyone, including car company employees, enthusiastic about cars.
They continue to take the things away that make anyone, including car company employees, enthusiastic about cars.
I needed this article to be a lot longer. Lutz is one of the greats.
Look for his books. They are engaging reads.
I needed this article to be a lot longer. Lutz is one of the greats.
Look for his books. They are engaging reads.
No, there’s lot of enthusiasts in the auto industry. The issue is that management does not want fun and exciting cars. They want profitable cars, so the engineer that manages to save a few pennies gets promoted, the enthusiast engineer who wants to things right (which usually involves added cost) is not promoted. Then you get as Mr. Lutz puts it – the engineers who should be working at Hotpoint or Shark end up Chief Engineer – who makes the decisions and we end up with vehicles like the current Ford Escape, Chevy Malibu and Dodge Hornet. Universally terrible, soulless penalty boxes on wheels.
I rented a Malibu and it was fine. It was actually somewhat refreshing to drive an actual sedan. I’ve owned two Miatas, an MR2, and a 240SX, among many other RWD manual cars. That’s not what the people with money for new cars generally want.
Conversely GM could have saved several hundred million by not developing the E2xx platform and just put Malibu on the Alpha or Alpha 2 platform.
The shareholder-beholden execs playing it safe with vehicle development also helps explain why most modern vehicles are considered lookalike and disposable commodity appliances that are available only in kitchen appliance colors except for the occasional red or blue.
No, there’s lot of enthusiasts in the auto industry. The issue is that management does not want fun and exciting cars. They want profitable cars, so the engineer that manages to save a few pennies gets promoted, the enthusiast engineer who wants to things right (which usually involves added cost) is not promoted. Then you get as Mr. Lutz puts it – the engineers who should be working at Hotpoint or Shark end up Chief Engineer – who makes the decisions and we end up with vehicles like the current Ford Escape, Chevy Malibu and Dodge Hornet. Universally terrible, soulless penalty boxes on wheels.
I rented a Malibu and it was fine. It was actually somewhat refreshing to drive an actual sedan. I’ve owned two Miatas, an MR2, and a 240SX, among many other RWD manual cars. That’s not what the people with money for new cars generally want.
Conversely GM could have saved several hundred million by not developing the E2xx platform and just put Malibu on the Alpha or Alpha 2 platform.
The shareholder-beholden execs playing it safe with vehicle development also helps explain why most modern vehicles are considered lookalike and disposable commodity appliances that are available only in kitchen appliance colors except for the occasional red or blue.
No, the Federal government and California have DESTROYED car culture one item at a time. They hate anything that is fun, or inspires creative thinking.
Car companies have accompanied the destruction by going along with every little restriction. If they stopped selling cars in California years ago when this started, we wouldn’t be fighting battles over fucking kei trucks and an aftermarket exhaust.
I’m fairly libertarian, and will probably vote for a gay libertarian president this year since I am not in a swing state and therefore can be a proud 3%er.
However, as a heavily small government fiscal conservative, I still find an all-caps rant against the entities that build ROADS for being anti-car culture amusing.
The terms of service for private roads would not allow half the shit people are allowed to drive on government roads.
I posted some links showing California can’t build roads, but it got deleted for some reason even though I used .gov and .org sites. California was 45th in road maintenance and highway building according to a 2021 study. With their budget surplus there, and now a huge deficit, it can’t be any better. But they do have the highest gas taxes in the country, so there is that!
Also I only capitalized one word, so I dunno, maybe work on reading skills. Also not sure what your sexuality or political stance has to do with any of this.
There is a lot of editing to the original comment, but I will note that for now it still references “kei trucks”, and I do find it a bit amusing for a rant against government regulations to reference a class of vehicle that only exists because of, and is named after, government regulations.
In Japan? I don’t know the history of the Kei car over there, just that a lot of states are trying to ban them. Which proves my point, not yours? I am in America and that is the country we are discussing.
Anyways, we aren’t going to agree on this and you will keep going all day long, so have a good day!
Weird, because the Miata and other fun cars are still legally available in California…
ahh yes, how could this be the autotopian without a crowd from “technically the truth”
“ACTUALLY, one car, with a historically small motor and great mpg, which you will never able to mod even slightly (besides a cupholder) is still for sale so you are wrong”
Just because I used one car as an example, doesn’t mean it’s the only one. I’ll try to make an exhaustive list of fun cars, but I’m unlikely to be able to catch them all:
There’s so many I didn’t even touch on…
I appreciate you putting all those out there. Can you mod any of them in any real way to improve performance or sound? That is part of being an enthusiast, modding your car.
I am asking this seriously, I think the answer is no, but I have been surprised before.
Yup, you are right. No one has ever successfully modded a car and ben able to remain legally complaint. Not a single person ever.
Man dude, you just keep moving goal posts, and what’s with this enthusiast gate keeping…
Yes. You don’t live here, do you? You seem to be operating from a bunch of assumptions that aren’t true. You can modify an exhaust, but leave the cats. You can do all manner of things to make your car perform and sound better without running afoul of the law. My former neighbor modified 911s for a living, including water cooled. The car culture here has evolved and adapted and hot rodding here remains lively and unparalleled anywhere in the US.
I was at a cars and coffee and there were two LS swapped E30s. Recent Mustangs with aftermarket superchargers.
Its not what you think at all.
“The government destroyed car culture!”
“Okay fine, the government built the roads but there are no good cars!”
“Okay fine, there is one good car!”
“Okay fine, there are a ton of good cars, but can you mod them?!”
“Okay fine, you can mod them but can you mod them to run on enriched plutonium?!!!!1!1!!!”
You can’t even SEE the original goalposts at this point, Greg.
Wtf?
You definitely don’t need to mod your cars to be an enthusiast. Or if you do, then I guess I no longer qualify as one.
Yeah, I was blown away by that comment…all original is highly sought after in classic cars
FYI: The most highly attended trade show in the United States by a large margin, with 160,000 attendees, is the Specialty Equipment Market Association show. The only things on display are items to modify cars and trucks.
“That is part of being an enthusiast, modding your car.”
Nice gatekeeping.
Kei trucks are legal in California, you just can’t drive them on the freeway. Which being they don’t go much above 55 without a decent downhill is pretty fair.
That’s okay, because like you said, they can’t keep up and shouldn’t be on the road. That reference is to Maine, Rhode Island and other states that are trying, which falls under government. The CAFE rules that dictate to about 15 other states or more, and has completely changed the American car industry overall is a different story.
I believe Kei trucks are not illegal in those states by state regulation, but by a non-government association of DMV officials who have made it their personal mission to prevent their use.
And yet California remains as one of the regions most central to car culture and enthusiasm in the United State. Curious.
Sure, CARB has some rules that makes aftermarket mods more difficult and their enforcement apparatus can be nonsensical, but they are far from the only or worst. It’s not so long ago that Californians were still able to drive their JDM imports when supposed bastions of freedom like Georgia and Texas were (successfully and not) placing new restrictions and limitations.
The state that spawned multiple car cultures, has a Ferrari named after it, has the most registered supercars in the country, has hit songs about its driving roads, has every enthusiast car you can think of for sale right now in near mint condition, and contains some of the world’s most recognized customizers?
I’d argue the exact opposite. All the technologies that we rely on for huge power and engaging cars now were really pursued in the main stream because of the challenges of meeting emissions and CAFE standards, as well as making cars safer. Fuel injection, turbo or supercharging, fundamental combustion, friction and heat transfer modeling, suspension dynamics modeling… all these things have made and will continue to make cars more powerful, efficient, fun to drive, safer… Sure, there’s push-back from automakers and a change in the technologies that get us there, but even if your definition of “car culture” or a true enthusiast is limited to carbureted V8s that struggle to hit 300 brake HP all while getting 8 mpg, guess what… you can still do that! Amazing huh, the federal government hasn’t taken away your right or ability to own them. BUT you can also go out and get a 300 hp 4-cyls, 700 hp V8’s, 1000 hp EV cars & trucks, and whole range in between.
Maybe your anger would be better directed at car dealer organizations that are typically the lobbying body that pushes states to try to ban kei trucks or other grey-market imported vehicles? Or a corporate culture that values short-term gains and returning money to the investors over everything else?
Scrolled down for comment like this. I well remember the malaise era—and I even rodded out a cat once (converter, you freaks), but I was able to buy a 220hp 3050lb car from this century for $3k four years ago. Now, your grandma’s 4yo Toyota can easily blow its doors off—and last 250k if maintained at all.
I am eyeballs deep in the jeep wrangler culture and there is SO much modification going on in the jeep culture.
“They hate anything that is fun, or inspires creative thinking.”
I disagree. They only hate pollution and the health issues it causes.
And when I look at various Teslas like the Model S P100D, there is plenty of fun and creative thinking there. And it’s happily embraced by California to the point that they made a BEV mandate.
Now having said that, with the Kei truck thing and other imports, the real issue causing that problem are the groups lobbying against those imports. And who might be? That would most likely be legacy OEMs as well as the legacy OEM dealer lobby.
The whole 25 year import ban is the fault of Mercedes-Benz and other legacy OEMs.
WTF are you talking about? California is full of enthusiast cars! And it’s not the federal government but state governments trying to ban Keis. California does make it challenging to use a Kei on road they are not banned outright:
https://oiwagarage.co/blogs/are-kei-trucks-and-cars-street-legal/are-kei-trucks-legal-in-california-understanding-the-complexities
Focus your Kei ire on Georgia and RI instead.
No, the Federal government and California have DESTROYED car culture one item at a time. They hate anything that is fun, or inspires creative thinking.
Car companies have accompanied the destruction by going along with every little restriction. If they stopped selling cars in California years ago when this started, we wouldn’t be fighting battles over fucking kei trucks and an aftermarket exhaust.
I’m fairly libertarian, and will probably vote for a gay libertarian president this year since I am not in a swing state and therefore can be a proud 3%er.
However, as a heavily small government fiscal conservative, I still find an all-caps rant against the entities that build ROADS for being anti-car culture amusing.
The terms of service for private roads would not allow half the shit people are allowed to drive on government roads.
I posted some links showing California can’t build roads, but it got deleted for some reason even though I used .gov and .org sites. California was 45th in road maintenance and highway building according to a 2021 study. With their budget surplus there, and now a huge deficit, it can’t be any better. But they do have the highest gas taxes in the country, so there is that!
Also I only capitalized one word, so I dunno, maybe work on reading skills. Also not sure what your sexuality or political stance has to do with any of this.
There is a lot of editing to the original comment, but I will note that for now it still references “kei trucks”, and I do find it a bit amusing for a rant against government regulations to reference a class of vehicle that only exists because of, and is named after, government regulations.
In Japan? I don’t know the history of the Kei car over there, just that a lot of states are trying to ban them. Which proves my point, not yours? I am in America and that is the country we are discussing.
Anyways, we aren’t going to agree on this and you will keep going all day long, so have a good day!
Weird, because the Miata and other fun cars are still legally available in California…
ahh yes, how could this be the autotopian without a crowd from “technically the truth”
“ACTUALLY, one car, with a historically small motor and great mpg, which you will never able to mod even slightly (besides a cupholder) is still for sale so you are wrong”
Just because I used one car as an example, doesn’t mean it’s the only one. I’ll try to make an exhaustive list of fun cars, but I’m unlikely to be able to catch them all:
There’s so many I didn’t even touch on…
I appreciate you putting all those out there. Can you mod any of them in any real way to improve performance or sound? That is part of being an enthusiast, modding your car.
I am asking this seriously, I think the answer is no, but I have been surprised before.
Yup, you are right. No one has ever successfully modded a car and ben able to remain legally complaint. Not a single person ever.
Man dude, you just keep moving goal posts, and what’s with this enthusiast gate keeping…
Yes. You don’t live here, do you? You seem to be operating from a bunch of assumptions that aren’t true. You can modify an exhaust, but leave the cats. You can do all manner of things to make your car perform and sound better without running afoul of the law. My former neighbor modified 911s for a living, including water cooled. The car culture here has evolved and adapted and hot rodding here remains lively and unparalleled anywhere in the US.
I was at a cars and coffee and there were two LS swapped E30s. Recent Mustangs with aftermarket superchargers.
Its not what you think at all.
“The government destroyed car culture!”
“Okay fine, the government built the roads but there are no good cars!”
“Okay fine, there is one good car!”
“Okay fine, there are a ton of good cars, but can you mod them?!”
“Okay fine, you can mod them but can you mod them to run on enriched plutonium?!!!!1!1!!!”
You can’t even SEE the original goalposts at this point, Greg.
Wtf?
You definitely don’t need to mod your cars to be an enthusiast. Or if you do, then I guess I no longer qualify as one.
Yeah, I was blown away by that comment…all original is highly sought after in classic cars
FYI: The most highly attended trade show in the United States by a large margin, with 160,000 attendees, is the Specialty Equipment Market Association show. The only things on display are items to modify cars and trucks.
“That is part of being an enthusiast, modding your car.”
Nice gatekeeping.
Kei trucks are legal in California, you just can’t drive them on the freeway. Which being they don’t go much above 55 without a decent downhill is pretty fair.
That’s okay, because like you said, they can’t keep up and shouldn’t be on the road. That reference is to Maine, Rhode Island and other states that are trying, which falls under government. The CAFE rules that dictate to about 15 other states or more, and has completely changed the American car industry overall is a different story.
I believe Kei trucks are not illegal in those states by state regulation, but by a non-government association of DMV officials who have made it their personal mission to prevent their use.
And yet California remains as one of the regions most central to car culture and enthusiasm in the United State. Curious.
Sure, CARB has some rules that makes aftermarket mods more difficult and their enforcement apparatus can be nonsensical, but they are far from the only or worst. It’s not so long ago that Californians were still able to drive their JDM imports when supposed bastions of freedom like Georgia and Texas were (successfully and not) placing new restrictions and limitations.
The state that spawned multiple car cultures, has a Ferrari named after it, has the most registered supercars in the country, has hit songs about its driving roads, has every enthusiast car you can think of for sale right now in near mint condition, and contains some of the world’s most recognized customizers?
I’d argue the exact opposite. All the technologies that we rely on for huge power and engaging cars now were really pursued in the main stream because of the challenges of meeting emissions and CAFE standards, as well as making cars safer. Fuel injection, turbo or supercharging, fundamental combustion, friction and heat transfer modeling, suspension dynamics modeling… all these things have made and will continue to make cars more powerful, efficient, fun to drive, safer… Sure, there’s push-back from automakers and a change in the technologies that get us there, but even if your definition of “car culture” or a true enthusiast is limited to carbureted V8s that struggle to hit 300 brake HP all while getting 8 mpg, guess what… you can still do that! Amazing huh, the federal government hasn’t taken away your right or ability to own them. BUT you can also go out and get a 300 hp 4-cyls, 700 hp V8’s, 1000 hp EV cars & trucks, and whole range in between.
Maybe your anger would be better directed at car dealer organizations that are typically the lobbying body that pushes states to try to ban kei trucks or other grey-market imported vehicles? Or a corporate culture that values short-term gains and returning money to the investors over everything else?
Scrolled down for comment like this. I well remember the malaise era—and I even rodded out a cat once (converter, you freaks), but I was able to buy a 220hp 3050lb car from this century for $3k four years ago. Now, your grandma’s 4yo Toyota can easily blow its doors off—and last 250k if maintained at all.
I am eyeballs deep in the jeep wrangler culture and there is SO much modification going on in the jeep culture.
“They hate anything that is fun, or inspires creative thinking.”
I disagree. They only hate pollution and the health issues it causes.
And when I look at various Teslas like the Model S P100D, there is plenty of fun and creative thinking there. And it’s happily embraced by California to the point that they made a BEV mandate.
Now having said that, with the Kei truck thing and other imports, the real issue causing that problem are the groups lobbying against those imports. And who might be? That would most likely be legacy OEMs as well as the legacy OEM dealer lobby.
The whole 25 year import ban is the fault of Mercedes-Benz and other legacy OEMs.
WTF are you talking about? California is full of enthusiast cars! And it’s not the federal government but state governments trying to ban Keis. California does make it challenging to use a Kei on road they are not banned outright:
https://oiwagarage.co/blogs/are-kei-trucks-and-cars-street-legal/are-kei-trucks-legal-in-california-understanding-the-complexities
Focus your Kei ire on Georgia and RI instead.
Oh, they could be working at Shark too? No wonder they sucked!
I’m surprised it’s that difficult to fill the companies with car enthusiasts, given how competitive good jobs like that are.
Oh, they could be working at Shark too? No wonder they sucked!
I’m surprised it’s that difficult to fill the companies with car enthusiasts, given how competitive good jobs like that are.
He has a lot of great stories. I feel like it would be a great docu-series of him just talking for 5 episodes. I was at Road America for the Indycar race and there was a mint condition Prowler there in the purple color that seemingly all of them came in. Looked amazing. I wish someone could pry Chrysler from Stellantis and bring it back to credibility.
He has a lot of great stories. I feel like it would be a great docu-series of him just talking for 5 episodes. I was at Road America for the Indycar race and there was a mint condition Prowler there in the purple color that seemingly all of them came in. Looked amazing. I wish someone could pry Chrysler from Stellantis and bring it back to credibility.
When I read the title I assumed the lack of enthusiasts was in the car buying public and that was hurting car companies, I agreed. When I read the article and it said the lack of enthusiasts inside the car companies was hurting the car companies, I agreed EVEN MORE.
I think that car companies did this to themselves by getting in bed with the investor class that does not care what widgets get sold as long as more get sold for higher cost and higher profit every quarter, and also making cars that were bad for many decades (malaise era) and then making cars that are now boring expensive rolling high tech livingrooms. This has caused a generational gap in enthusiasts inside and outside the industry.
Yeah and to me if you have the people at the top that only treat everything like an appliance and just want to make sure the line goes up you are going to start lacking innovation and you will start having less disparity between different car brands (well besides reliability maybe). If you don’t have a company like Dodge really making any performance type cars anymore to compete with the Corvette why would that push GM to make a better Corvette? Same can be said with pretty much any industry though everything seems to be played more and more safe as time goes because again line must go up and cannot take risk that may hurt investors.
Can confirm. I briefly worked for a manufacturing company that is a household name for all kinds of consumer products. I was expecting a very different company culture than I experienced – outside of the corporate R&D division, independent thought and experimentation was punished (usually by firing). Rule #1 was “do nothing to upset the production line”. As an engineer that came from other industries, I saw all kinds of stuff that could have been improved upon, but the upper and middle managers were terrified to do anything that would upset the finance guys who ran the place (out of fear of investor reaction), so there was absolutely zero innovation and the product lines were really only competitive because of the brand name and nothing else.
I’ve worked somewhere very similar. Those wonderful engagement surveys showed an employee population that was terrified of speaking up.
Executive response: hold repeated department-wide (i.e., 100+ people) meetings and demand the employees raise their hands to explain why we were afraid to speak up. lolololol
Those meetings were quiet but the happy hours after were very loud.
Oh, I had mentally blocked that nonsense! We had one of those surveys and then, just like you, a series of all-hands meetings for each department with the VP of Operations. Some folks were bold, but most stayed quiet out of fear of retaliation – which was justified, as most of the bold folks were unemployed shortly thereafter. My time in the consumer products manufacturing was brief, but I learned a lot, notably not to work in the consumer products manufacturing industry.
The beatings will continue until morale improves!!
I work in the electric aviation world, and my company is filled with aviation enthusiasts and people who want our product to be everywhere. I addition to the really cool state-of-the-art manufacturing and products, we value engagement from everyone on everything. When everyone in the company, from the janitors, cooks, maintenance, buyers, engineers, and well everyone is treated as part of the company, not just an employee, the entire company benefits and the products we produce are better. Being already past the age of retirement, it will be difficult to leave this place in a few years as the environment is just so good, the people so good, and the way-cool product is just so good. So, so much better than any company I have worked at previously.
When you say ‘electric aviation world’ – that makes me very curious. I’d love to read more about that.
I work for one of the leaders in the eVTOL world. This website has some of the best “reporting”. Reporting is quoted as it is mosty press releases with occasional articles. It is a very interesting place to be!
https://verticalmag.com/evtol/
When I read the title I assumed the lack of enthusiasts was in the car buying public and that was hurting car companies, I agreed. When I read the article and it said the lack of enthusiasts inside the car companies was hurting the car companies, I agreed EVEN MORE.
I think that car companies did this to themselves by getting in bed with the investor class that does not care what widgets get sold as long as more get sold for higher cost and higher profit every quarter, and also making cars that were bad for many decades (malaise era) and then making cars that are now boring expensive rolling high tech livingrooms. This has caused a generational gap in enthusiasts inside and outside the industry.
Yeah and to me if you have the people at the top that only treat everything like an appliance and just want to make sure the line goes up you are going to start lacking innovation and you will start having less disparity between different car brands (well besides reliability maybe). If you don’t have a company like Dodge really making any performance type cars anymore to compete with the Corvette why would that push GM to make a better Corvette? Same can be said with pretty much any industry though everything seems to be played more and more safe as time goes because again line must go up and cannot take risk that may hurt investors.
Can confirm. I briefly worked for a manufacturing company that is a household name for all kinds of consumer products. I was expecting a very different company culture than I experienced – outside of the corporate R&D division, independent thought and experimentation was punished (usually by firing). Rule #1 was “do nothing to upset the production line”. As an engineer that came from other industries, I saw all kinds of stuff that could have been improved upon, but the upper and middle managers were terrified to do anything that would upset the finance guys who ran the place (out of fear of investor reaction), so there was absolutely zero innovation and the product lines were really only competitive because of the brand name and nothing else.
I’ve worked somewhere very similar. Those wonderful engagement surveys showed an employee population that was terrified of speaking up.
Executive response: hold repeated department-wide (i.e., 100+ people) meetings and demand the employees raise their hands to explain why we were afraid to speak up. lolololol
Those meetings were quiet but the happy hours after were very loud.
Oh, I had mentally blocked that nonsense! We had one of those surveys and then, just like you, a series of all-hands meetings for each department with the VP of Operations. Some folks were bold, but most stayed quiet out of fear of retaliation – which was justified, as most of the bold folks were unemployed shortly thereafter. My time in the consumer products manufacturing was brief, but I learned a lot, notably not to work in the consumer products manufacturing industry.
The beatings will continue until morale improves!!
I work in the electric aviation world, and my company is filled with aviation enthusiasts and people who want our product to be everywhere. I addition to the really cool state-of-the-art manufacturing and products, we value engagement from everyone on everything. When everyone in the company, from the janitors, cooks, maintenance, buyers, engineers, and well everyone is treated as part of the company, not just an employee, the entire company benefits and the products we produce are better. Being already past the age of retirement, it will be difficult to leave this place in a few years as the environment is just so good, the people so good, and the way-cool product is just so good. So, so much better than any company I have worked at previously.
When you say ‘electric aviation world’ – that makes me very curious. I’d love to read more about that.
I work for one of the leaders in the eVTOL world. This website has some of the best “reporting”. Reporting is quoted as it is mosty press releases with occasional articles. It is a very interesting place to be!
https://verticalmag.com/evtol/