Bonjour, Autopians! Today’s Shitbox Showdown features two French cars, and I’ll explain why in just a minute. But first, yesterday we looked at two red-blooded American performance cars with five-speed manuals – let’s see which one you preferred:
SHO ’nuff. The factory hot-rod Taurus is the clear winner. I think you’re right; that Camaro just isn’t very special. I’d still love to have a 3rd generation F-body, but I think I’d be contrarian and look for an early one with the Iron Duke four-cylinder, just for the hell of it. Assuming any of them haven’t been swapped out by now, that is.
Now then: I have a programming note for you before we get started today. I’ll be gone next week, and the early part of the week after. My wife and I are taking a long-overdue vacation, and spending a week in Paris. Don’t worry; I’m leaving the Showdown in good hands. You can expect at least a couple of different guest hosts while I’m away. I’ll be keeping tabs, to make sure they adhere to the high standard of excellence I’ve so painstakingly established here, and posting any random cool car-related stuff I see in France to the Discord along the way. And if everything works out the way I plan, I’ll have a fun car story to report on when I get back.
It only seems fitting, then, that I leave you with a pair of French cars to discuss and vote on while I’m away. And here they are.
1985 Renault Alliance convertible – $5,500
Engine/drivetrain: 1.7 liter overhead cam inline 4, three-speed automatic, FWD
Location: Bartonville, IL
Odometer reading: 34,000 miles
Runs/drives? Great, they say
Okay, you got me; this isn’t exactly a French car. It was built in Wisconsin. It’s a French design, and a French nameplate, and that will have to do. The Renault Alliance was AMC’s entry into the compact car market, an Americanized variant of the Renault 9. The basic body, chassis, and engine were Renault designs, but the interior was designed by legendary AMC designer Dick Teague, and it shows. It looks very much like other American Motors offerings inside. Those seats, by the way, are very comfortable, much nicer than most small cars at the time.
The Alliance launched with a 1.4 liter version of the same pushrod four-cylinder engine that Renault had been using since just after the French Revolution, but in 1985, the new overhead-cam 1.7 liter engine became available, and this car is so equipped. It’s a vast improvement in refinement and power to be sure, but it’s still not a miracle-worker, especially through a sleepy three-speed automatic. I’ve driven a manual-transmission Renault Encore (the Renault 11-based hatchback version of this car) and it was on par with most ’80s small cars, which means an automatic version is probably about as exciting as watching beige paint dry with C-SPAN on in the background. This one is said to run perfectly, at least, probably owing to its complete lack of miles.
A convertible top was also a new option for ’85, designed by fabled car-beheader ASC. I always thought the Alliance made a particularly handsome convertible; this car has those tidy mid-80s European lines to it, and it works well without a top. It may not be able to put much more than a stiff breeze in your hair, but at least it looks sharp doing it.
Unfortunately, perpetually-broke AMC was really operating on a shoestring budget by this time, slapping cars together with wood screws and baling wire just to get them out the door. That indifferent build quality, combined with just enough European strangeness to confound many mechanics, meant most Alliances met an early demise. They’ve nearly all been gone for decades now. This one may seem expensive, but just try finding another one for sale in this condition. It’s cheap for a car that will draw crowds at any car gathering.
1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16 – $2,695
Engine/drivetrain: 1.9 liter dual overhead cam inline 4, five-speed manual, FWD
Location: Yakima, WA
Odometer reading: 145,000 miles
Runs/drives? “She rips,” according to the seller
Peugeot wasn’t having a whole lot more luck in the US market in the ’80s. Its 505 model was an also-ran among European cars, as nice as it was, and Peugeot never saw fit to bring over any of its supposedly excellent small cars. In 1988, the front-wheel-drive Pininfarina-styled 405 was launched to great fanfare; it was a hit in Europe, and the American press raved about it – but nobody here bought it.
If you’re going to track down one of the few 405s that reached these shores, this is the model to get: the 150 horsepower twin-cam Mi16. We have exactly zero information on this car’s mechanical condition except for one effusive sentence from the seller, but you can tell a lot from that sentence: it runs and drives well, they’re aware of Peugeot’s distinguished rally heritage, and chances are it hasn’t led a particluarly easy life. But that rally heritage may help out in that regard; after all, Peugeots are famous for surviving not only rally stages, but also rural roads in Africa. A young enthusiastic American driver shouldn’t faze it.
It’s a little rough around the edges cosmetically, but not terrible. I wish we had better photos to judge by. Ordinarily, I would skip an ad with such a terse description and so few low-quality photos, but Peugeot 405s aren’t exactly for sale on every street corner. I had to work with what I could find. Still, I would like to have a look at the interior. I fear it’s trashed.
The biggest problem I can see with this car is that it’s an orphan. Peugeot is still around, part of the great Stellantis empire these days, but it hasn’t sold cars in the US since 1991. You won’t be able to walk into Autozone and pick up parts for this one. RockAuto seems to have some of the basics, but major repairs when it needs them might be a problem.
French cars have always been outliers in the US market, but those who know them seem to love them. Granted, one of these is only half-French, but I bet even the humble Alliance has its fans. Were you to add a little European flavor to your garage, which would you choose? Choose, discuss, debate – and I’ll see you all when I get back!
(Image credits: Renault – Craigslist seller; Peugeot – Facebook Marketplace seller)
If the Peugeot was in the same condition as the Renault, this would be an easy choice. But at this age, condition matters more than anything else. I’ll take the Renault on summertime restaurant trips and it would do that just fine.
I loved the 405 when they first came to the US and a friend’s parents had one for a time and it was a great sporty sedan in stick shift. Despite condition and convertible > everything, I’m going with emotion today and voting for the Pug.
In a decent shape the Pug would win anytime! But that one just looks unloved for a long time, so who knows what faults it has come up with all by itself.
So I’ll go with the silly americanized Renault.
That 405 is hotter than a Nice sidewalk in July! It’s like the Cèzanne of 80’s four door hatchbacks. Every curve takes me back to the Seine as it rolls thru Paris. I know nothing about this car. It’s damsel from across the room of Le Bar Du Bristol. I just want to be hurt by it. Just ruined economically, socially, politically. I want to feel tragedy with this car. I wish to make Pierre Corneille weep. I do desire we may be better strangers, Peugeot.
A French-designed car, built by drunk/drugged assembly line workers is a recipe for disaster. The subject of parts availability comes up often in these posts, but I would imagine the Peugeot would be far easier to source. America doesn’t realize the global presence of Peugeot and consider them a niche brand. Conversely, the American version of the Renault 9/11 was bastardized to the point it shares very little with those produced elsewhere.
Alliance: this is what a modern-day Columbo would drive.
Of course it would help if the paint was chalky, and the exhaust was light blue.
Peugeot. Ive already got a Peugeot bicycle and a Peugeot pepper grinder, might as well round out the set.
Weren’t there wristwatches at some point too?
Still are. Sort of. Apparently it is an American-owned watch brand now and judging by prices, probably made in China.
https://www.peugeotwatches.com/
Save up and get a Piaget watch instead.
https://www.piaget.com/watches
“Save up and get a Piaget watch instead.”
Eh, I’m more of a Seagull 1963 kinda person.. Maybe a Seiko if I’m feeling fancy.
Mopeds, too.
I know the Renault is probably dreadful to drive, and incredibly slow. But at least it’s nothing special, so I wouldn’t feel bad about putting some miles on it. Anyway, it’s probably still smoother, quieter, and faster(?) than my air-cooled Beetle, not to mention it’s a convertible. I’ve been developing a soft spot for these well preserved 80s cars, I was born in 1993 so by the time I was really paying attention to cars, cars of this vintage were starting to achieve “shitbox” status.
Renault wins for me, but I’m tired today and a dull, lazy convertible matches my vibe.
Yep, not everything has to be fast, or dazzling.
> so I wouldn’t feel bad about putting some miles on it.
That assumes the car will let you put miles on it.
Mark, you guys will love Paris, enjoy your well deserved holidays!
Now, to business.
The Alliance is a miserably boring thing to drive. I’ll have to disagree with you over the interior design: it looks like any garden-variety Renault 9 or 11 sold in Argentina. It is very red, which is a vast improvement over the greyness they had down south, though. On second thought, those pads in the door cards are slightly different from the Renault ones. Anyway…
The 405 is an incredibly balanced car (I extensively drove my dad’s SRI in the mid ’90s), and the Mi16 was the best of the bunch. You can source cheap parts from France of Argentina, too, so the price of entry is more than reasonable for what you get. It’s one of the best looking sedans of any age (along with the Alfa Romeo 164 and 156). Restore it completely, or keep it just functional, and it will bring endless joy to your driving time.
405 all the way.
I remember my dad actually buying an alliance new in the 80’s. it was a miserable car that broke down frequently. However this Vert version does sort of make you look twice, it is pristine. Both are going to be parts nightmares, so although I hate it, I guess the Renault.
I don’t want to drive it but that Renault belongs in a museum. The other one has been ridden hard and put away wet. If I had to choose, the cheaper mistake would do.
I chose the Renault. It would be a cheap entry to get a interesting car and it is convertible. Also, I think the parts might be easier to get for it than the Peugeot, but neither would be easy.
Maybe the Renault in a higher spec would be different – an Encore Electronic for example. But regardless, the 405 is going to be a more interesting car in every way – to drive, or at shows despite being in rough shape cosmetically.
The Alliance might be a nice complement to a red low-mileage 2008 Dodge Avenger in a bizarro garage museum that asks the viewer to decide which question is of greater significance: why did this survive, vs. why spend that money on it?
Will the collection include a Fuego?
And an Impulse?
An Impulse is a worthwhile save I think. A Fuego…might be harder to find than this Alliance was.
Perhaps whoever picked these up can offer a contribution. Also starting to wonder if if there’s a trend in preserved, low mileage, average cars, painted red, between the Alliance, Avenger, and 323.
Absolutely going with the Peugeot here. It looks so much better than the Alliance and it’s going to actually be fun to drive. I’d love to be the next owner to rip on that Peugeot
Renault is a POS, but in amazing condition. Pity such a preservationist didn’t pick a better car to caretake, but that often seems to be the case. Peugeot is actually cool and I remember when they were new and didn’t understand why they didn’t sell better in a market filled with horrible domestic junk or other odd Euros that did decently enough. But, damn this one looks bad from what can be seen. This isn’t a beater to me, but a nice curiosity (an interesting car that has little to future likelihood of increasing value), which requires at least a halfway restoration. Certainly minimal worries about the drivetrain, but where does one get exterior and (I’m sure they’ll be needed) interior parts? Is the driver window open or broken? The condition has me wonder. Dammit, I harbor no fondness for AMC and their junk even though I know they’re considered contrarian cool here and don’t care for convertibles or automatics, but the Renault’s condition makes it a comfortable occasional summer … no, I can’t do it. Maybe at the Peugeot’s price, but not at $5500. Lion it is.
You can get really cheap parts for the Peugeot in Argentina. The only expensive bill will be shipping. This car vastly deserves a sound investment in it.
I’ve driven examples of both. Anyone who has done likewise can only pick the Pug, no matter how gruesome the parts situation is (and always has been) or wear and tear on this particular example.
The Mi-16 was a screamer, the kind of car you’d deliberately keep in one gear lower than necessary just to hear that twincam working hard. My then-girlfriend was rockin’ a 16-valve Jetta GLi at the time, and even she was impressed.
So no question. The Peugeot may grenade itself at any moment, which the snoozemobile Alliance probably won’t, but who cares? Firecrackers don’t last either, but they’re FUN!
The Pug reminds me of the French girl in “Born in East L.A.:” She tells Cheech Marin “I ‘ave a black Peugeot” and he replies, “I’ll bet you do!”
Great movie quote. I remember my wife about peed herself when she heard that one.
Red Velour wins the day!
I voted for the sweet 405, as for the Alliance, that is like ordering Crepe Suzettes at Waffle House. About as French as McDonalds
I think you’re forgetting the “Royale With Cheese.”
Zut alors, this was a hard choice! That Alliance is remarkably well-preserved, and I don’t necessarily mind the slushbox, but any car with Walmart wheel covers is immediately sus.
And deep down, the Peugeot is the better car. So that’s our choice.
Merci beaucoup, mon ami! Bon voyage!
I voted Renault under the assumption I had another daily driver. I’d save the Alliance for sunny days and Radwood!
A worn out Peugeot 405 versus a like-new Alliance?
Peugeot, easily.
The Alliance was garbage when new and I doubt 38 years and 34,000 miles have helped change that.
I remember a couple different episodes of Car Talk in which a caller owned a 405 and they invariably had high mileage accrued. Best of all, the issues they had were typically easily and cheaply resolved. That sounds pretty good to me. Plus, look at those wheels!
You’re definitely leaving out the uncontrollable guffaws followed by heartfelt pity from the hosts every time a caller mentioned their French car.
That’s true, I can hear it now… They were the original “Here’s your problem, lady,” guys whenever someone called in with a Peugeot, Renault, or Citroen.
I so miss Saturdays in the garage wrenching while they guffawed & joked about administering dope-slaps. They (and the Muir ‘Idiot Guides’) are a large part of why I persisted: figured if those idiots could swing a wrench, so could I.
Did you know you can still catch ” hand-curated” episodes, as Tom puts it, on NPR and their podcast platform?
I did not. It’s been awhile since I last looked. Thanks for the heads-up!
The Alliance looks nice, but I’d go with a drop-top Rabbit of a similar vintage instead. Gimme the Peugeot, a quartet of Cibie rally lights, and point me in the direction of the nearest HooptieX.
Three speed auto killed the Renault for me, and having a Peugeot 306 with a newer 2.0 variant of this engine, I had to. It’s a great engine!
I had to vote Renault for familial reasons
I love Renault for familial reasons and I don’t even like my family that much. I think the love for Renaults may have been literally the only thing I got from my family.
The 405 is a good car, a shame that it was not more popular in the USA. Here in the UK, they were very well liked, especially the indestructible Turbo Diesels. Well the engine was robust… It’s a shame that one is not in better condition.
Here is a good video about the history of the 405, very 80s!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zerMPD5yQ2E
As for the Renault, I would rather shit in my hands and clap!
If I was drinking coffee it would be all over my screen now. If you don’t trademark that phrase I will. I owned an Alliance. If it’s really quiet and I close my eyes I can still hear the rattles. I don’t know how long it took to reach 60 mph because I always ran out of road. The vinyl seats had a particular odor of sweat in the summer. Merde indeed.
Literal, actual lol: well said!