Man Does The Math To Brag About EV Road Trip Savings But Finds It Would Be Just As Cheap And A Full Day Quicker In A Hybrid

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There’s a tweet that is currently going somewhat viral, all about a long road trip taken in a Tesla Model Y. It’s a 3,605 mile road trip, which is absolutely no joke by any standards of a road trip. What’s notable about this trip is that the taker of this trip, Alex Gayer, kept some nicely meticulous records and did some math to figure out how much time was spent charging, how much money was spent, and what the equivalent would be in miles per gallon. One gets the sense that this was all done to brag about his Tesla, which is fine since we don’t kink-shame here, but interestingly, I think the end result of this is not an aggrandizement of Tesla, but actually a pretty solid argument in favor of plug-in hybrids!

As I think we’ve made pretty clear, we’re very pro hybrids, especially plug-in hybrids. They may not be the absolute platonic ideal of perfect efficiency, but they make a lot of sense for the flawed, messy reality we all actually live in. There’s a pragmatic beauty to hybrids. Yes, you’re dragging around two entire types of drivetrains, but the capabilities of those drivetrains dovetail so well with each other, with each one’s strengths filling in the weaknesses of the other – electric motors’ instant torque helping the combustion engine, the reclamation of normally lost kinetic energy from braking, the energy density of gasoline, all of these traits combine to make a system that’s more than the sum of its parts.

Let’s take a look at this proud Tesla owner’s math and see what we think of all this. First, let’s look at the overall trip:

Damn, that’s a long trip! Based on that map, it looks like it took, what, 24 recharging stops? Alex breaks down some of the math for us, helpfully:

So, we have 3,605 miles, with an average cost per mile of 12 cents, and just under 11 hours of charging time for the trip. Oh, and that doesn’t count “destination charges” which is charging done once they reached their destination for that leg of the journey. The total spent on electrons to feed into those big lithium batteries came to $421.84. Okay, all that seems in order. But it was this next tweet that I really think got everyone wondering:

Okay, so I suspect everyone here is thinking the same thing: 30 mpg? That’s, um, normal? Like, almost anything can hit 30 mpg on the highway now, right? And the way this is phrased – “I would have had to achieve an average of 30.0 MPG” – makes it sound like this is some incredible feat? Big-ass modern SUVs can pull off about 30 MPG now. I just had a press V8 Mustang that was hitting about 30 mpg on the highway recently, too. This isn’t nuclear fusion here.

Okay, so using Alex’ numbers here, let’s figure out what an equivalent trip in a combustion car that gets 30 mpg highway would be like. Let’s say we’re taking an Acura Integra, why not, which gets a combined 30-33 mpg (city 30/highway 37, if you’re curious) and that car has a 12.4 gallon gas tank.

So, the range of that car at a conservative 30 mpg would be 372 miles, so if we divide 3,605 miles by 372 that means we’d have to stop for gas 9.69 times, which we’ll round up to 10 because we probably want more Nutter Butters and Munchos and pee breaks, anyway.

Each tank of 12.4 gallons at $3.516 is $43.60 to fill the tank (completely, which is unlikely, but whatever so that comes to $436.00 for all the gas, a bit more than the electricity, but effectively the same, since it’s unlikely you’ll be draining that tank to bone-dry each time.

Now let’s think about time. Let’s err on the side of slowness and say each fill-up takes 15 minutes, so we have 10 stops, which means 150 minutes, or two and a half hours total. That’s a hell of a lot less than 11 hours. It’s eight and a half hours less, in fact.

And, keep in mind, 30 mpg is just a baseline here – it’s not hard to find all sorts of cars, like Toyota Priuses or Honda Civics or Volkswagen Jettas or Toyota RAV4s or any number of other cars that get well over 30 mpg, 35 and up, even 40 mpg for highway mileage is not uncommon. So the reality is likely to be less fuel needed and less fill-ups than we calculated here.

Of course, people on eX-Twitter pointed out these facts, Alex pointed out that in non-highway use, his Tesla gets well over 30 mpg, often up to an EV equivalent of 90 mpg. And that’s true! But it’s also true that plug-in hybrids can get similar equivalent mpg numbers when running on battery power in-town, and can also take advantage of having a combustion engine that quickly refuels when being used on a long road trip.

If we look at the electric-only ranges of PHEVs, we can see that most of them can cover the average American daily commute distance of 12 miles just on battery power:

  • Jeep Wrangler 4xe: 22 miles
  • Ford Escape plug-in: 37 miles
  • Chrysler Pacifica PHEV: 32 miles
  • Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe: 26 miles
  • Hyundai Tucson PHEV: 33 miles
  • Mazda CX-90 PHEV: 26 miles
  • BMW X5 xDrive50e: 38 miles
  • BMW 330e: 23 miles
  • Toyota Prius Prime: 44 miles
  • Toyota RAV4 Prime: 42 miles
  • Lexus RX450h+: 37 miles

Hell, even the worst of these can pull off almost the whole back-and-forth commute without needing to start the combustion motor at all:

Model Y Vs Wrangler 4xe

I know Alex Gayer didn’t really intend it to be this way, but I think his carefully-tracked road trip tweets will actually do a lot of good, just not in the everyone-should-get-a-Tesla sense. I think it’ll do good in the we-should-all-seriously-consider-plug-in-hybrids sense. Sure, they’re conceptually a clunky compromise, but in reality, in actual practice, they really do seem to offer the best of both worlds.

Had Alex and his four companions and all their luggage been in a plug-in hybrid, they could have spent the same amount of money and finished their trip an entire eight and a half hours earlier, which perhaps could have spared them seven or so hours of listening to Alex talk about how awesome his Tesla is.

I kid, Alex, I kid! I’m delighted you love your car! We should all be so lucky! But if we’re talking hard numbers, I think this whole thing has been a win for the plug-in hybrids.

I hope you had a fun trip, though!

 

Relatedbar

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264 thoughts on “Man Does The Math To Brag About EV Road Trip Savings But Finds It Would Be Just As Cheap And A Full Day Quicker In A Hybrid”

  1. I think a lot depends on the speeds and conditions this trip was made in. Ideally, a 30mpg car would have followed along with 5 passengers, luggage, HVAC usage, electronics charging, etc to do a true comparison. It is well-established that EPA “highway” numbers are not created under these conditions nor are they created with 5 passengers, headwinds/tailwinds, luggage, heavy AC usage, heavy electronics load etc. My point here is: let’s do a real time comparison in a Model Y, an equivalent gas car and a equivalent hybrid car of your choosing and we can see how things stack up!

    Also, a regular hybrid cannot really take much advantage of its hybridness on the highway since it relies on energy from deceleration (or the gas engine itself at an overall loss if you prefer) and useful deceleration doesnt happen that much on the highway unless you are slowing down a lot. My point here is that hyrbids work best in the city but for me or for highway driving, i would rather all-ICE or all electric, not a hybrid. Too many systems to maintain or fail in a hybrid/PHEV versus just one or the other.

  2. I think a lot depends on the speeds and conditions this trip was made in. Ideally, a 30mpg car would have followed along with 5 passengers, luggage, HVAC usage, electronics charging, etc to do a true comparison. It is well-established that EPA “highway” numbers are not created under these conditions nor are they created with 5 passengers, headwinds/tailwinds, luggage, heavy AC usage, heavy electronics load etc. My point here is: let’s do a real time comparison in a Model Y, an equivalent gas car and a equivalent hybrid car of your choosing and we can see how things stack up!

    Also, a regular hybrid cannot really take much advantage of its hybridness on the highway since it relies on energy from deceleration (or the gas engine itself at an overall loss if you prefer) and useful deceleration doesnt happen that much on the highway unless you are slowing down a lot. My point here is that hyrbids work best in the city but for me or for highway driving, i would rather all-ICE or all electric, not a hybrid. Too many systems to maintain or fail in a hybrid/PHEV versus just one or the other.

  3. Doesnt the Integra “require” premium gas to get that MPG number, though? That will increase your cost a lot or decrease your MPG if you dont use it.

    1. Also, as much as I hate Tesla, why are we comparing a Model Y to a FWD compact sedan? Why not something like an RDX which is much more similar in terms of power, price, form factor, size, etc? I’m typing this without even looking up RDX fuel economy numbers, so maybe I have to eat my words?

      1. Having ridden in the back seats of both an RDX and a Model Y, these are not comparable. The RDX is far nicer, has a larger back seat, and a much more comfortable ride. While the Integra isn’t the same form factor, I can’t think of a compact SUV that is as cramped and uncomfortable as a Model Y. Maybe a Chevy Trax?

  4. Doesnt the Integra “require” premium gas to get that MPG number, though? That will increase your cost a lot or decrease your MPG if you dont use it.

    1. Also, as much as I hate Tesla, why are we comparing a Model Y to a FWD compact sedan? Why not something like an RDX which is much more similar in terms of power, price, form factor, size, etc? I’m typing this without even looking up RDX fuel economy numbers, so maybe I have to eat my words?

      1. Having ridden in the back seats of both an RDX and a Model Y, these are not comparable. The RDX is far nicer, has a larger back seat, and a much more comfortable ride. While the Integra isn’t the same form factor, I can’t think of a compact SUV that is as cramped and uncomfortable as a Model Y. Maybe a Chevy Trax?

  5. I used to drive a Tacoma but gas was cutting into my mileage reimbursement from work, and since I drive a lot for work (~2,000 miles per month) I was debating what to replace it with… and I calculated the Tacoma was about 25¢ a mile to drive.

    I settled on a 2021 Toyota Avalon Hybrid and calculated it would cost about 10¢ per mile, worst case scenario.

    My last tank was 44.8mpg at $3.65 a gallon…. Or 8.1¢ per mile in fuel costs.

    I did consider a Tesla, but using the calculator from their website, my most common “out and back in a day” routes for work (routes that are 400 miles or less) would take me an average of 1.5 hours longer to stop and charge vs a hybrid….

    So the Avalon won…. This article just reinforces that I made the right choice.

  6. I used to drive a Tacoma but gas was cutting into my mileage reimbursement from work, and since I drive a lot for work (~2,000 miles per month) I was debating what to replace it with… and I calculated the Tacoma was about 25¢ a mile to drive.

    I settled on a 2021 Toyota Avalon Hybrid and calculated it would cost about 10¢ per mile, worst case scenario.

    My last tank was 44.8mpg at $3.65 a gallon…. Or 8.1¢ per mile in fuel costs.

    I did consider a Tesla, but using the calculator from their website, my most common “out and back in a day” routes for work (routes that are 400 miles or less) would take me an average of 1.5 hours longer to stop and charge vs a hybrid….

    So the Avalon won…. This article just reinforces that I made the right choice.

  7. I’ve two questions. That charging time, just plugged in, or also waiting for a spot?

    Also, finding something to do for an additional 8.5h at charging spot can’t be the easiest of things? Anyway, that waiting time for 1x person at $50ph is the same as the effing fuel cost, x5 people instead… I’m good…

    For my usage, I honestly think a small electric car for every day is fine, and even if we keep the idea up that we also need something bigger for weekend family trips, I think a electric car is fine with maybe a 200-300km range. But if I’m doing a road trip, a hire car would be the option for sure.

    I remember when BMW first brought out the i3 thing here, they actually offered a 5 series if you ever wanted to do a longer trip (I think at a cost, but might have been free for xyz number of kms?). For me, that deal I’d be electric tomorrow (ignoring the depreciation curve…)

    1. Lexus has or had a deal where you could lease an RZ (EV with a poor range for the $$ but a really nice car otherwise) and got 30 days of free rental of an RX (ICE powered SUV).

      We did this when they had massive rebates like $15k off a RZ lease.

      Lexus now has an RZ 300 fwd which gets about 40 miles more than our RZ 450 awd, but man the power in the 450 is addictive.

    2. when I bought my used 2014 i3 – they were offering weekend loaners for road trips, I actually used it once and got a x3 for free! but the program didn’t last long – as the hype around the i3 died pretty fast, until David bought one.

  8. I’ve two questions. That charging time, just plugged in, or also waiting for a spot?

    Also, finding something to do for an additional 8.5h at charging spot can’t be the easiest of things? Anyway, that waiting time for 1x person at $50ph is the same as the effing fuel cost, x5 people instead… I’m good…

    For my usage, I honestly think a small electric car for every day is fine, and even if we keep the idea up that we also need something bigger for weekend family trips, I think a electric car is fine with maybe a 200-300km range. But if I’m doing a road trip, a hire car would be the option for sure.

    I remember when BMW first brought out the i3 thing here, they actually offered a 5 series if you ever wanted to do a longer trip (I think at a cost, but might have been free for xyz number of kms?). For me, that deal I’d be electric tomorrow (ignoring the depreciation curve…)

    1. Lexus has or had a deal where you could lease an RZ (EV with a poor range for the $$ but a really nice car otherwise) and got 30 days of free rental of an RX (ICE powered SUV).

      We did this when they had massive rebates like $15k off a RZ lease.

      Lexus now has an RZ 300 fwd which gets about 40 miles more than our RZ 450 awd, but man the power in the 450 is addictive.

    2. when I bought my used 2014 i3 – they were offering weekend loaners for road trips, I actually used it once and got a x3 for free! but the program didn’t last long – as the hype around the i3 died pretty fast, until David bought one.

  9. Teslas website tries to lead people into thinking “fuel savings” are a default part of the ownership experience. Even lowering the “price” base on expected fuel savings.

    So it is no wonder their owners want to validate their purchase by “showing off” those fuel savings they are lining their pockets with, just like the website told them would happen.

    And those “fuel savings” are there if you charge at home for $0.10 kwh. Charging on the road is apparently a different story.

    1. “And those “fuel savings” are there if you charge at home for $0.10 kwh.”

      And are very much somewhere between being a wash or laughably not there if you charge at home for $0.35-$0.66/kWh like we do here in PG&E country:

      https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#ev2adetails

      $0.35/kWh works out to the local going rate of $4.69/gallon in a Prius Prime whereas $0.66/kWh works out to $8.89/gallon. So for millions of my NorCal brethren even charging at home overnight works out no better than gassing up a hybrid.

      1. “And are very much somewhere between being a wash or laughably not there if you charge at home for $0.35-$0.66/kWh like we do here in PG&E country:”

        Those electricity rates you pay are crazy. As high or higher than what they pay in the EU.

        Yeah at those rates, a regular hybrid would make more sense. It would also make sense to invest in a rooftop solar and battery storage system and only get a plug in to use up excess energy the system generates.

        And if you live in a place where you can’t modify the power or mount solar on the roof (which I think you mentioned before), then get a portable solution hooked up to portable solar:
        https://www.bluettipower.com/products/ep500-power-station-3-pv200-solar-panel

        Sidenote: I got a couple of the small Bluetti systems… one to just act as a UPS for my internet and a second one with a solar panel to use for portable power when camping.

        My monthly usage is about 500kWh… If I had to pay your rates, it would at least triple the cost of what I pay for electricity… from around $100/month to at least $300/month

        And a system like what I linked would likely pay for itself within 3 years.

        To give you an idea of how crazy your electricity rates are… I live in the Toronto area and this is the tiered plan that I will be paying soon:

        Ultra-low overnight:
        Every day from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.2.8¢ per kWh

        Weekend off-peak:
        Weekends and holidays from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m.8.7¢ per kWh

        Mid-peak:
        Weekdays from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. and 9 p.m. to 11 p.m.12.2¢ per kWh

        On-peak:
        Weekdays from 4 p.m. to 9 p.m.28.6¢ per kWh

        Note… that doesn’t include delivery which adds about 12 cents per kWh.

        And consider as well that my rates are in CAD… so take those dollar amounts, chop 25% and you have roughly what it is in USD.

        I think part of the problem in your area is you have a public for-profit company that gets to have a monopoly.

        In my view, “public company” and “monopoly” should never go together. If it’s a monopoly, then it should be government owned/controlled.

    2. It’s well known that public charging is often no cheaper than gasoline. Now if there’s home solar on net metering the math changes significantly. Well, once the cost of the solar is mathed out it may not be.

  10. Teslas website tries to lead people into thinking “fuel savings” are a default part of the ownership experience. Even lowering the “price” base on expected fuel savings.

    So it is no wonder their owners want to validate their purchase by “showing off” those fuel savings they are lining their pockets with, just like the website told them would happen.

    And those “fuel savings” are there if you charge at home for $0.10 kwh. Charging on the road is apparently a different story.

    1. “And those “fuel savings” are there if you charge at home for $0.10 kwh.”

      And are very much somewhere between being a wash or laughably not there if you charge at home for $0.35-$0.66/kWh like we do here in PG&E country:

      https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#ev2adetails

      $0.35/kWh works out to the local going rate of $4.69/gallon in a Prius Prime whereas $0.66/kWh works out to $8.89/gallon. So for millions of my NorCal brethren even charging at home overnight works out no better than gassing up a hybrid.

      1. “And are very much somewhere between being a wash or laughably not there if you charge at home for $0.35-$0.66/kWh like we do here in PG&E country:”

        Those electricity rates you pay are crazy. As high or higher than what they pay in the EU.

        Yeah at those rates, a regular hybrid would make more sense. It would also make sense to invest in a rooftop solar and battery storage system and only get a plug in to use up excess energy the system generates.

        And if you live in a place where you can’t modify the power or mount solar on the roof (which I think you mentioned before), then get a portable solution hooked up to portable solar:
        https://www.bluettipower.com/products/ep500-power-station-3-pv200-solar-panel

        Sidenote: I got a couple of the small Bluetti systems… one to just act as a UPS for my internet and a second one with a solar panel to use for portable power when camping.

        My monthly usage is about 500kWh… If I had to pay your rates, it would at least triple the cost of what I pay for electricity… from around $100/month to at least $300/month

        And a system like what I linked would likely pay for itself within 3 years.

        To give you an idea of how crazy your electricity rates are… I live in the Toronto area and this is the tiered plan that I will be paying soon:

        Ultra-low overnight:
        Every day from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.2.8¢ per kWh

        Weekend off-peak:
        Weekends and holidays from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m.8.7¢ per kWh

        Mid-peak:
        Weekdays from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. and 9 p.m. to 11 p.m.12.2¢ per kWh

        On-peak:
        Weekdays from 4 p.m. to 9 p.m.28.6¢ per kWh

        Note… that doesn’t include delivery which adds about 12 cents per kWh.

        And consider as well that my rates are in CAD… so take those dollar amounts, chop 25% and you have roughly what it is in USD.

        I think part of the problem in your area is you have a public for-profit company that gets to have a monopoly.

        In my view, “public company” and “monopoly” should never go together. If it’s a monopoly, then it should be government owned/controlled.

    2. It’s well known that public charging is often no cheaper than gasoline. Now if there’s home solar on net metering the math changes significantly. Well, once the cost of the solar is mathed out it may not be.

    1. It’s left off of nearly every list I see. I’m nearing the end of my 3 year lease on mine and it just doesn’t stack up with what’s out there now for new price. Giving it back to the dealer.

    1. It’s left off of nearly every list I see. I’m nearing the end of my 3 year lease on mine and it just doesn’t stack up with what’s out there now for new price. Giving it back to the dealer.

  13. Alex literally escaped Florida, drove through Ohio and Kentucky, and returned to Florida. On purpose. I think it’s clear that his critical thinking faculties aren’t entirely intact.

  14. Alex literally escaped Florida, drove through Ohio and Kentucky, and returned to Florida. On purpose. I think it’s clear that his critical thinking faculties aren’t entirely intact.

    1. Exactly. The forums and subreddits are filled with this advice. If you can’t charge at home (off peak if available), the running costs are similar to a hybrid.

    1. Exactly. The forums and subreddits are filled with this advice. If you can’t charge at home (off peak if available), the running costs are similar to a hybrid.

  17. A long road trip is kind of the worst case for hybrids. You use the battery, and then you have to lug around a big heavy dead battery, which cuts down on mpg. Without stop and go you’re not charging it, and if you charge it you run into the same costs this guy did. Not to say that you wouldn’t beat 30mpg necessarily, but not guaranteed.

    Look at this guy’s report about long trips in his BMW hybrid “but it only managed 20 MPG on the highway. The battery wasn’t of much use, but it was 800 lbs of dead weight; a regular gasoline X5, even the V8, would’ve done better.” https://www.curbsideclassic.com/cars-of-a-lifetime/coal-2022-bmw-x5-xdrive45e-splendid/

    1. That’s only true for *plug in* hybrids, *conventional* (non-plug-in) hybrids are in their element in sustained, long-distance trips. You have to know what your primary use case is, and choose accordingly, but that’s also why I’m more of a “some form of hybrid all the things” person versus a “PHEV all the things” person.

      1. The Toyota/Lexus PHEVs get similar gas mileage when they use gas as their regular hybrid models. So no real downside on a road trip with no plugging in.

    2. My gas mileage in my Escape PHEV on highway trips is easily 35+. (With battery assist it’s easily 40+) Remember without a conventional transmission the engine is significantly more efficient as the Ecvt can keep it in its optimum for power and mpg. Let’s also not disregard that the electric motor also doesn’t just shut off when the main battery pack is empty. It still assists for for Regen while coasting or climbing grades.
      Electric snobs have some really backwards ass views on things they have never experienced.

      1. If you mean me, I’m no electric snob. I don’t have an electric car or a hybrid. My point was exactly what you said, the fuel economy of a hybrid is worse on a long road trip than regular commute driving. It’s something I haven’t really seen being talked about much, and relevant to Jason’s point

  18. A long road trip is kind of the worst case for hybrids. You use the battery, and then you have to lug around a big heavy dead battery, which cuts down on mpg. Without stop and go you’re not charging it, and if you charge it you run into the same costs this guy did. Not to say that you wouldn’t beat 30mpg necessarily, but not guaranteed.

    Look at this guy’s report about long trips in his BMW hybrid “but it only managed 20 MPG on the highway. The battery wasn’t of much use, but it was 800 lbs of dead weight; a regular gasoline X5, even the V8, would’ve done better.” https://www.curbsideclassic.com/cars-of-a-lifetime/coal-2022-bmw-x5-xdrive45e-splendid/

    1. That’s only true for *plug in* hybrids, *conventional* (non-plug-in) hybrids are in their element in sustained, long-distance trips. You have to know what your primary use case is, and choose accordingly, but that’s also why I’m more of a “some form of hybrid all the things” person versus a “PHEV all the things” person.

      1. The Toyota/Lexus PHEVs get similar gas mileage when they use gas as their regular hybrid models. So no real downside on a road trip with no plugging in.

    2. My gas mileage in my Escape PHEV on highway trips is easily 35+. (With battery assist it’s easily 40+) Remember without a conventional transmission the engine is significantly more efficient as the Ecvt can keep it in its optimum for power and mpg. Let’s also not disregard that the electric motor also doesn’t just shut off when the main battery pack is empty. It still assists for for Regen while coasting or climbing grades.
      Electric snobs have some really backwards ass views on things they have never experienced.

      1. If you mean me, I’m no electric snob. I don’t have an electric car or a hybrid. My point was exactly what you said, the fuel economy of a hybrid is worse on a long road trip than regular commute driving. It’s something I haven’t really seen being talked about much, and relevant to Jason’s point

  19. I have a Hyundai hybrid that will do 60mpg at sustained highway speeds without a lot of mountains (so, not through the Appalachians), and at least well over 50mpg in more variable speed and terrain conditions, an easy 550+ miles to a tank.

    Unfortunately, it rides like a cork in a wave pool even on smooth pavement, and has seats that feel like rough polyester double knit stretched over plywood, so, over the past year, I’ve taken to using it pretty much just for reimbursable business miles and use a 16 year old, 20-25mpg Ford for all long distance personal trips (have done three 1,000 mile weekend road trips so far this year that way). What can you do? I give it to them for finding a way to extract truly heroic fuel economy out of a 5 passenger hatchback, but cars also need to be comfortable, and have a radio that’s louder than the road noise from the low rolling resistance tires

    1. To be fair, the Ioniq is very much an economy-mobile—basically a cheaper Prius, like the gen2 Honda Insight tried and failed to be. Most of the hybrids on the market now are just normal cars with better NVH and comfort than ever especially with such quiet powertrains at low speed but yeah, some of the more ‘dedicated’ hybrids are rough. Having driven one, the Ioniq is definitely no luxury car.

    2. I was looking at the Ioniq when I bought a (buyback) Passat TDI instead for pretty much the same reasons you mention. I got 42mpg (whole tank) in summer and it’s a comfortable car with a touch of luxury. My daughter is enjoying it now.

  20. I have a Hyundai hybrid that will do 60mpg at sustained highway speeds without a lot of mountains (so, not through the Appalachians), and at least well over 50mpg in more variable speed and terrain conditions, an easy 550+ miles to a tank.

    Unfortunately, it rides like a cork in a wave pool even on smooth pavement, and has seats that feel like rough polyester double knit stretched over plywood, so, over the past year, I’ve taken to using it pretty much just for reimbursable business miles and use a 16 year old, 20-25mpg Ford for all long distance personal trips (have done three 1,000 mile weekend road trips so far this year that way). What can you do? I give it to them for finding a way to extract truly heroic fuel economy out of a 5 passenger hatchback, but cars also need to be comfortable, and have a radio that’s louder than the road noise from the low rolling resistance tires

    1. To be fair, the Ioniq is very much an economy-mobile—basically a cheaper Prius, like the gen2 Honda Insight tried and failed to be. Most of the hybrids on the market now are just normal cars with better NVH and comfort than ever especially with such quiet powertrains at low speed but yeah, some of the more ‘dedicated’ hybrids are rough. Having driven one, the Ioniq is definitely no luxury car.

    2. I was looking at the Ioniq when I bought a (buyback) Passat TDI instead for pretty much the same reasons you mention. I got 42mpg (whole tank) in summer and it’s a comfortable car with a touch of luxury. My daughter is enjoying it now.

  21. This is all well and good, but I think we should remember that an EV doing this trip has a chance of using significantly less fossil fuels. Is that actually what happened on this trip? I have no friggin’ clue. For all I know all these chargers were being powered by straight up burning coal. However, the fact that we are capable of building an EV that can do this trip is a good thing. I wouldn’t want to spend that long in a Tesla, because fuck that, but it’s a step in the right direction, I think.

    30MPG is a fairly low bar, but I think that should be the take away here: I think we can calm down about the range anxiety. As Torch points out, a PHEV can probably take care of most commutes, but even a long distance trip is possible these days (I assume there was some careful planning).

    I kind of hate most EVs on the market currently, but this is promising towards a future less reliant on fossil fuel. Let’s try to take the silly tweet as a sort of proof of concept and not a huge brag. I think maybe some folks are reading too much into it just because it mentions a shitty, shitty company.

    1. The US power grid is 19.5% coal and less than 1% liquid petroleum, so there’s about an 80% chance the trip was pretty clean to extremely clean – 40% natural gas, 21.5% renewable (wind, solar, hydroelectric), 18% nuclear. The trip also included a lot of time in Illinois, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina, which all get a much higher percentage of their power from nuclear than the country as a whole, and excluded West Virginia, which is disproportionately weighted toward coal.

      3. Sure, natural gas is cleaner than coal in terms of pollution, but isn’t much of an improvement in terms of greenhouse gasses. Maybe even worse for greenhouse, if we count methane leaks. It’s a fossil fuel. So call it 40% clean (renewable + nuclear).

      4. Southern Illinois and west Kentucky/Tennessee have a high percentage of coal. The only coal plant opened this century is Prairie State in Illinois.

  22. This is all well and good, but I think we should remember that an EV doing this trip has a chance of using significantly less fossil fuels. Is that actually what happened on this trip? I have no friggin’ clue. For all I know all these chargers were being powered by straight up burning coal. However, the fact that we are capable of building an EV that can do this trip is a good thing. I wouldn’t want to spend that long in a Tesla, because fuck that, but it’s a step in the right direction, I think.

    30MPG is a fairly low bar, but I think that should be the take away here: I think we can calm down about the range anxiety. As Torch points out, a PHEV can probably take care of most commutes, but even a long distance trip is possible these days (I assume there was some careful planning).

    I kind of hate most EVs on the market currently, but this is promising towards a future less reliant on fossil fuel. Let’s try to take the silly tweet as a sort of proof of concept and not a huge brag. I think maybe some folks are reading too much into it just because it mentions a shitty, shitty company.

    1. The US power grid is 19.5% coal and less than 1% liquid petroleum, so there’s about an 80% chance the trip was pretty clean to extremely clean – 40% natural gas, 21.5% renewable (wind, solar, hydroelectric), 18% nuclear. The trip also included a lot of time in Illinois, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina, which all get a much higher percentage of their power from nuclear than the country as a whole, and excluded West Virginia, which is disproportionately weighted toward coal.

      3. Sure, natural gas is cleaner than coal in terms of pollution, but isn’t much of an improvement in terms of greenhouse gasses. Maybe even worse for greenhouse, if we count methane leaks. It’s a fossil fuel. So call it 40% clean (renewable + nuclear).

      4. Southern Illinois and west Kentucky/Tennessee have a high percentage of coal. The only coal plant opened this century is Prairie State in Illinois.

  25. I think the story here is that the energy in gasoline is priced much cheaper than the equivalent electrical form. Generally, an electric car is about 3x more efficient at converting energy to motion than an ICE car, yet somehow Alex paid what he would have if he was driving a 30mpg car (hybrid or not). Poor Alex has paid for a vehicle (in price, depreciation. refueling time, etc) that is 3x more efficient but has no payback which, instead, is being pocketed by those running the recharging infrastructure.

    I call “Shanagans!“. It seems like recharging is not priced so much by the energy content, but by what the market will bear which is roughly equivalent to the cost of operating a 30mpg ICE car.

    2. Not really? Torch’s EV-to-ICE range cost comparison has three massive flaws in it:

      1) EV’s are at their least efficient while highway driving, ICE cars are at the most efficient
      2) The A/C was used heavily, which reduces range more on EV’s
      3) The EV was fully loaded with passengers and cargo, while Torch’s EPA numbers don’t take that much extra weight into account

      He’s comparing a best-case ICE scenario to a worst-case EV scenario.

      1. Kindly refer to Brian Stieh’s comment below.

        And I’d argue there’s one absolutely enormous flaw with your post: None of your points are valid. Road trips are a common use for cars. It’s a perfectly appropriate metric to use to compare the two.

        1. “An EV might be a little less efficient the 1-2 times per year you go on a massive road trip cruising on 75MPH interstates, so let’s declare victory for the hybrid without discussing the other 99% of the scenarios in which you’ll be using the car”

          1. A BEV takes 3-6 times the raw materials for batteries than a PHEV. In the 10,000 miles I’ve driven our Volt in the last year? I’ve used 30 gallons of gas.

            What’s better for the environment? 30 gallons of gas or another 1000lbs of batteries?

            1. Ah, I see you also subscribe to the Torchinsky method of “Highlight anything in favor of PHEV and don’t mention any other factors”

              Or are we pretending that the engine and transmission in a PHEV are harvested from an organic carbon neutral car parts farm? And also pretending a battery only lasts one year so it’s relevant to compare only one year of gas usage? And even then, one year of gas usage for someone who is quite an outlier in how much they’re able to avoid using the engine in their PHEV? Like anyone who leaves their home city more than once or twice per year is going to burn way more than 30 gallons, and if you say “Oh well I use another car for that” then let’s add the raw materials of that second vehicle to your equation.

              I actually drive a PHEV myself since it matches my specific needs, but this article is garbage in terms of comparing a PHEV spec sheet to a BEV in its absolute worst use case and declaring victory.

          1. About 3 times a year. I’m leaving on one tomorrow. I’ll be taking the Outback. I’d consider the Volt… but the dog doesn’t fit in it very well.

      2. And Torch used an Acura Integra for the comparison. which isn’t nearly as spacious as a Model Y. Something like a RAV4 or CRV would have been more comparable, and with five people and the equivalent of “a fully loaded trunk and frunk” and speeds “as fast as conditions allow”, it’s unlikely that a full ICE RAV4 would manage a cost-equivalent 30 MPG, so figure in a few more refueling stops. And while the cost of even a comparably equipped RAV4 Hybrid would be a little less than a Model Y Long Range without the tax credit, street price of a RAV4 Prime XSE most likely wouldn’t have been. So, yeah, some time would. have been saved, and more so with a hybrid whether or not it was a plug-in, but it’s hardly the big “Gotcha!” an anti-EV zealot will doubtless portray Torch’s post to be somewhere.

      3. Yeah but the Tesla side has one big flaw in it and that is that they mention that there was destination charging done but don’t put it in the total. It also doesn’t say how much destination charging was done, once or twice, every night and what state of charge it arrived and left with.

        I’m sure the thought is that it was “free” so no need to include that. But was it really free, how much was the hotel with the destination charger vs a similar one that didn’t offer “free” charging. Did they have to go out of their intended path to stay at hotels with destination chargers?

        Even if the hotels were on the path and as cheap as others in the area, not every road trip will have convenient free destination charging.

        That of course was the point about this article, road trips. Now he could have picked a better vehicle to compare it to, an actual PHEV like the RAV-4 Prime or Escape PHEV.

        1. Using the math shown (which isn’t complete, granted), I took “did not include destination charges” as specifying no destination charging occurred. This may be a generous read, but I think the person tweeting was trying to test out the road trip on entirely supercharger energy.

          If able to get some cheap or free destination charging, the cost per kwh seems really high, given that a Tesla should get the best price at Superchargers.

        2. Their “destination charging not included” had nothing to do with the cost of charging, it was to exclude charging done while they would not have otherwise been driving, and thus wouldn’t contribute to the overall lengthening of the duration of the trip.

          From the x-eets:

          Total Time Spent Supercharging: 10 hours 58 minutes (did not include destination charges)

          (emphasis mine)

      4. Also neglected to factor in maintenance. Depending on your service interval, a 4k mile trip you’re basically racking up ~1/2 an oil change worth of miles, not to mention any other service intervals you just got 4k miles closer to.

    3. I don’t know enough about how electric rates are set, though I don’t doubt there’s plenty of profit baked in (as well as deferred maintenance), but it’s closer to say that the true cost of gasoline is much higher than what purchasers pay. Besides environmental costs, there’s also a lot of foreign intervention and military size invested in protecting oil interests (resources and global stability) in countries we otherwise wouldn’t care about (then there’s the cost of many of those countries that would be nothing without their oil in terms of compromises and allowances we give them in regards to human rights plus their greater capability to cause problems with that money and influence).

      1. The kicker for the US is, the US is the world’s largest petroleum producer, by quite a bit, and is basically self-sufficient (there is some import because chemical differences). The problem is, if oil prices go up elsewhere, US oil companies will sell our oil elsewhere because they make more money that way. They don’t have to pay for the foreign intervention stuff, not their problem. Ain’t capitalism grand?

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