Good morning! Today’s Shitbox Showdown is all about comfort. Not luxury, just good old-fashioned comfort: cushy seats, a quiet engine, and a smooth ride. To that end, we’re looking at a “Japanese Buick,” and a “Buick Buick.” But first, let’s see how yesterday’s new arrivals did:
Close call, but the Chevy wins. For my money, I think the Soul is the more practical choice, but I agree that the Cruze is probably the better buy here, considering the mileage difference. It’s probably the nicer car as well.
Speaking of nice cars: My commute home from my day job yesterday sucked. Traffic was awful, there were more trucks than usual, and I got stuck behind some jackass in a Ram diesel for a couple of miles who insisted on rolling coal every time he inched forward. I was immeasurably thankful, then, to have my nice comfy Chrysler, with its strong air conditioning and killer sound system. In situations like that, the best thing you can do is just calm down, settle in, turn on some nice calming music (which isn’t always what you would think it is; yesterday it was Anthrax) and go with the flow.
So I started thinking: What would I be shopping for if I didn’t have my dad’s old car? What would eat up the miles sufficiently quickly on the way to work in the morning, when traffic is flowing freely, but help me tolerate the crappy stop-and-go on the way home? I found these two, remarkably close in age, price, specification, and mileage, but from two very different sources. Let’s see which one is the better deal.
2000 Buick LeSabre Limited – $2,495
Engine/drivetrain: 3.8 liter overhead valve V6, four-speed automatic, FWD
Location: Tacoma, WA
Odometer reading: 201,000 miles
Runs/drives? Yep
If there is a poster child for cushy American sedans, it’s the Buick LeSabre. It’s not fancy or overloaded with technology like a Cadillac or Lincoln, and anyone who’s ever driven one of any generation knows it’s no performance car. It has one mission, and at that, it excels: comfortable, roomy, no-nonsense transportation for as many as six people and their luggage.
This is a first-year model of the final generation of LeSabre, and by this time, GM had the formula down pat. Make it smooth, make it easy to operate, make it a nice place to be, and keep it mechanically simple. The LeSabre’s only available powertrain was the beloved 3800 Series II V6, paired with the basically competent and largely tolerated 4T65-E automatic transmission. You wouldn’t want anything else in this car, really; more power would just make it wallow around faster, and a manual gearbox would just be silly.
This Buick is offered for sale by a dealer in Tacoma, Washington, though it looks like half of the photos were taken from somewhere in the vicinity of Olympia. Scooch closer or zoom in next time, will ya? It’s likely from an auction, one of those cars that is too old for a “nice” dealership to sell, but still has some life left in it. It’s just a tick over 200,000 miles already, but as long as a few key repairs have been made, it should be good to go. Of course, it almost certainly doesn’t come with any sort of service history, so it might be prudent to just plan on devoting the first weekend to a little wrenching.
No one is going to call it a handsome car, but it’s pleasingly inoffensive and innocuous. At least the paint is shiny and the interior isn’t ripped up, which is saying a lot for this price range.
2002 Toyota Avalon XLS – $2,400
Engine/drivetrain: 3.0 liter dual overhead cam V6, four-speed automatic, FWD
Location: Lake Stevens, WA
Odometer reading: 201,000 miles
Runs/drives? Sure does
Toyota’s Avalon is so Buick-like that I’d be amazed if Toyota didn’t benchmark the LeSabre during its development. It’s a little smaller, and it has a more sophisticated dual overhead cam engine, but the broad strokes are the same: a long, wide, front-wheel-drive sedan, tuned for a smooth ride, and stuffed full of comfort and convenience features without being laden down by technological wizardry. The first-generation Avalon even offered a bench seat and a column-mounted gearshift.
This second-generation Avalon was built in Kentucky, alongside the similar but smaller Camry. It’s powered by the same three-liter V6, 1MZ-FE in Toyota-speak, and like the Buick, it only came with an automatic. Again, this is no performance car, despite the existence of a TRD Avalon in a later generation, and a stickshift would be out-of-place.
This Avalon is said to run well, which is to be expected (but never assumed) of a Toyota, even one with 200,000 miles on it. This engine does use a timing belt, and it’s a doozy to replace, so it’s worth asking how long ago it was done. Otherwise, as long as there are no obvious red flags on a test drive, this should be a solid, reliable car.
The rest of it looks good, but not perfect. Both front door handles appear to have been replaced, and never painted to match; a can of spray touch-up paint an a sunny afternoon could take care of that. (Take them off the car; don’t just mask around them.) Also, I have a feeling the seller has a dog; something appears to have taken a bite out of the armrest. Otherwise it looks reasonably straight and clean, the sort of car you aren’t embarrassed to be seen in, but aren’t afraid to leave parked somewhere for the evening either.
Everyone talks about “luxury cars,” but I think it’s more important to just have a comfortable car. There’s nothing luxurious about a nice sofa or a perfectly-fitting pair of jeans, but they are exceptionally comfortable. And so it is with these two. Their whole mission is to give you a place to take a load off while you soak up the miles. The only question left is, which one does it better?
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
Where’s the option for “neither?” I hated the Beige Era then, and I still hate it now.
Way harsh, homie!
Sincerely,
Moldy Buick Park Ave Owner
Avalon! Also Anthrax is awesome!!!
Have to go with the Buick, no question. A friend bought a fleet of 2004 Impala cop cars from a govt auction and gave me one with low miles. It belonged to the chief, he said. No real duty, just back and forth to work.
It’s still my daily driver. I would have never given these GMs a second look but have begrudging respect for them now. The 3.8L is unkillable, smooth, and gets decent fuel economy. The chassis is a well built tank.
The devil you know…. I’m going for the Buick. Had an 05 that kept my daughter safe when it was totalled a few years ago, and replaced it with a similar Bonneville. If not for the rust belt, they would go on forever… Hoping to squeeze a few more years out of it before there is nothing left of the strut mounts and inner fenders (the LeSabre had no rust of note. :'( )
I was just wondering what to pull up in Spotify for the day and now I’m listening to Sound of White Noise album, thanks Mark!
Oh, and I voted Avalon, the devil that you know and all that.
> I’m listening to Sound of White Noise album
Singlehandedly responsible for 100% of the streams that record will have this month
Buick all day long.
The gearshift is where it belongs – on the steering column. No effing center console to take away leg room. It will run forever and parts will be available forever.
Little known fact: every Buick after 1991 came standard with a handicap parking permit.
The Avalon is the LeSabre Done Right. Toyota makes the best cars.
BUT. The 1MZ is fucking scary to work on, and it has a timing belt. At least the 1MZ is non-interference.
Too bad the LeSabre wasn’t available with the supercharger found on the Park Avenue and Bonneville. It might be easy enough to add the supercharger or swap in an LS4 tho 😛
Gold is a cooler color than silver. The Avalon has a sunroof. It was available with a front bench until the next gen with the timing chain.
I voted for the Avalon
My first experience with an Avalon was when I received one as an Uber several years ago. With its plush heated rear seats and excellent noise isolation, it was one of the most comfortable cars I’ve ever had the pleasure of riding in. The chunk taken out of the driver’s armrest makes me sad, though, and it would be the first thing I’d replace (even before painting the door handles) just because it would gnaw at me (literally and figuratively — there should be a word for when something is both like that. I bet the Germans have such a word.) every time I got in the car.
How do you know that the Buick pictures were taken in Olympia rather than Tacoma? Is the architectural style of that boring white building unique to Olympia? Or is there a capitol rotunda visible somewhere that I’m missing?
“ literally and figuratively — there should be a word for when something is both like that”
Sylleptic?
Close, but a sylleptic word in this sense is one which modifies two different terms, one literally and the other figuratively. I believe what’s wanted here is instead polysemy.
I think it was just a joke that they took the photos from needlessly far away, likely because the person couldn’t be bothered to put any effort into it.
Oh, I get it now 🙂 Like the car is in Tacoma but the photographer was standing in Olympia because he was so far back!
Unless that armrest is alive or has mechanical jaws or has a creature living inside & yet a part of the armrest at the same time, like the armrest is like a turtle or snail shell…
No it will Not “Literally” gnaw at you.
I do realize how that’s the lingo all the ‘yoots’be using these days & you may be a “yoot’ yourself…
Now get off my lawn 🙂
I mean, the jagged edge of the armrest would be physically uncomfortable in addition to causing mental anguish. Maybe “gnaw” isn’t the right word for just some exposed foam and torn vinyl rubbing on my elbow, but I hardly think it’s the equivalent to some Zoomer crying out: “OMG, I literally died laughing!”
David Dunbar all the way. I paid $3,100 for my 2004 LeSabre Limited in 2017, with 104k. It currently has 270k and has NEVER been on a tow truck.
Oh sure, things break. It eats EGR valves for breakfast. I’ve replaced a lot of suspension components, the oil pressure sending unit, a window regulator, the trunk latch, and of course the dreaded coolant elbows. But it never fails to start and drive.
Just took it on a 2,500-mile jaunt to Myrtle back in June. Ran like a champ and got 28.5 MPG doing 80 all day.
The Avalon isn’t a bad choice at all- both of my family’s other two cars are Toyotas. But even Toyota can’t out-Buick the mighty LeSabre.
Gotta go Buick. The Buick is dull, but the Avalon is DULL. And, as the owner of a snooze-fest Toyota (and having previously driven examples of both Anonymous Transportation Devices shown here) I can’t see any other option.
Well, that’s not true. I’d really rather have a Mahindra Jeeto. But that’s just me.
The buick is nice, but with that many miles I’ve seen the trans cooler in radiator start leaking coolant into transmission = need new transmission
Both good choices and really close. Pretty much coming down to preference – I just like this gen of Avalon and its early 90s-Buick-style dash, so I’ll take the chance at investigating the timing belt. If the Buick were a Park Ave, though, I’d have a tougher choice.
The only real difference between the PA and the LeSabre is wheelbase and length. Both have the same supplier for the interiors, which was the Playskool company. I do like the PA’s styling a bit more, it has some nice creases while the LeSabre is a blob of melted butter.
Oh, I know – mechanically there’s nothing significant to separate them (at least non-Ultra PA). Purely from an aesthetic standpoint, I think the Park Ave is a nicer looking car than the final LeSabre, even inside despite the dashboards being pretty close. Actually the LeSabre is probably my least favorite design of the early 2000s Buick lineup of the time.
Not that the Avalon is a looker either – but I do like the interior design, reminiscent of the first W-body Regal dash.
The Lesaber as see ripped interior on the Avalon. I would save the $400 and put into fixing the issues the Buick has.
This high-spec comfy-couch Buick is king of the road in this contest. It’s got a timing chain, which Toyota finally went to for the Avalon engine in 2005. Even without that difference, the 3800 engine can give Toyota a run for their money from a reliability, power and fuel economy standpoint. If it were up against a 2005 Avalon, then I’d probably vote Team Toyota, but between these two, the Buick is Best.
I’m a Buick man. My first car was an ’87 LeSabre. This is a no-brainer.
I’ve seen enough H-body LeSabres with 230-300K miles on them to know this has plenty of life left in it. Considering it’s equipped with the infamous (Series II) 3800 and a timing chain, you’ve got a longterm companion; just keep an eye on the intake manifold.
Actually a hard as hell choice.
Despite the reputation of the 3800, I went with the Toyota for… well, everything else.
Yes, if it was just down to the engines, it would be a toss up. I would still pick the Avalon because I hate gold cars.
This isn’t even a contest.
The LeSabre is a Buick. A Buick with a 3800 Series II and a 4T65E. And it’s a high spec LeSabre; leather was decidedly NOT a standard feature on these. (Don’t look down on the cloth; it’s actually ridiculously good too.)
200,000 miles? You might need to do the coolant elbows, oil, and transmission fluid.
300,000 miles? Oil and transmission fluid.
Toyota’s mythology doesn’t hold up to reality. Especially not with timing belts. How many Avalons you still see on the road? Yeah. About none. Their V6 and transmission are good for maybe, maybe 200k.
We had over a dozen regulars (LOF, tire rotation) with 3800’s that had well over 250,000 miles on them. A mid-90’s Regal that had over 400,000 and was only on it’s second transmission. We had a livery company that put over 100k a year on LeSabres. We had a 3800 Supercharged that drove in under it’s own power with 5 fingered pistons. We had a 3800 that bent 4 rods from hydrolock and still ran (found it because it failed compression.)
You CANNOT kill a 3800 with anything short of gross negligence and abuse. And even then, the damn thing will still drive itself off the flatbed.
edit: oh, and these 3800’s? They’re a LOT more efficient than you think. 32-35MPG highway is typical. High speed cruise can hit 38+. City can reach 20.
For awhile, I had a Buick LaCrosse with the Series III 3800. For those who know, the Series III had an improved intake manifold design that resolved the previous Series II failures. This example had 290,000 miles on it and it ran like a finely-tuned top. Very few vehicles I’ve ever had with that kind of mileage ran that smoothly. The 3800 is the real deal.
I see a lot of these Avalons still on the road. The typical buyer of both the LeSabre and Avalon were more likely to use it gently and/or follow maintenance especially compared to some of their corporate siblings (for Avalon, referring to V6 Camrys or Siennas that saw harder lives – although I see a ton of this era Highlander still). Like the paradigm of some Mercurys getting better reliability ratings than its given Ford twin. Or, well, some other Buicks vs. a Chevy or Pontiac.
> How many Avalons you still see on the road? Yeah. About none
More than I see LeSabres.
Both are cushy, roomy rides in acceptable condition with comparable miles and, we’ll say, copacetic drivetrains. The GM setup has a reputation for being unkillable, while Toyotas are thought bulletproof. Unkillable, however, does not not mean it can’t be seriously wounded, so I’m going with the bulletproof Avalon for this round.
+1 for some Anthrax. Bush era being better than Belladonna but that’s just my opinion.. Going with Toyota only because it’s will feel more solid and should last longer.
I had one of these Buicks. Somehow got 32 MPG on the hi-way at 80 and yup, comfortable AF. I have actually thinking about finding another one of these.
Welp, it’s no XLE I4 Camry, but that Avalon’s not bad.
If I hafta settle fer a rich-man’s Camry, it might as well be this one.
2000s Toyota vs 2000s GM? No need to overthink this one. Avalon all day every day. I did get a kick out of this Buick though…my older neighbor (I’d guess she’s in her 70s and she’s not exactly warm and fuzzy but she’s friendly for the most part) has a ne’er-do-well grown ass son who lives in her basement and seems to either work very part time or not at all.
Unsurprisingly he’s also an ass who won’t interact with anyone on the block…and guess what he drives? That’s right…a LeSabre in this exact color. Whenever he’s moseying out of the house at noon or whatever he heads right to his Buick and proceeds to drive it out of the neighborhood like a lunatic. So now I can’t help but think loser whenever I encounter these.
Not the car’s fault mind you, but here we are. I’ve also casually browsed Avalons before because I’m a big luxobarge guy, but I’d struggle to pick one over a hemi powered 300 for obvious reasons. V6/FWD will never beat V8/RWD, reliability be damned.
Easy Peasy. Those Avalons are more or less the equivalent of a LandCruiser in car form. They will run forever and ever and ever. My Brother had one. He abused the crap out of it and it still went well past 350,000 miles before he traded it in. NOTHING ever went wrong with it either
Wow, hard to choose here… we looked at both of these models for my brother a few years back when he needed a car – ended up with the Avalon but that was only because the two Buicks we looked at both had undisclosed damage. Between these two, I’d probably go for the Avalon purely on the condition of the seats – an arm rest is easy to swap out. Very close though
Really can’t go wrong here, but having owned both engines in other cars, the 3800 will get better gas mileage somehow, and likely will require less maintenance. The avalon is more advanced, but in my experience that just means more complicated and harder to work on. I tell people to look for these old Buicks all the time when they are looking for cheap cars to last a few years.