This isn’t exactly a spicy hot take, but I really can’t say I miss the late 2000s. OK, sure, it was when Flo Rida was at the ostensible peak of his powers. But global economic collapse? I wasn’t a fan, personally speaking. There’s nothing from that era that I’d like to see come back today—certainly not the high rates of car repossessions, which can be absolutely devastating to people’s lives. And yet, for a variety of reasons, here we are.
That leads off today’s morning news roundup, unfortunately. But we also have items about Mazda’s foray into the electric world, General Motors’ decision to spend more money on ICE-powered trucks and some surprising Tesla-related news out of Texas. It’s enough to spin your heads right round, right round.
The Cars Remain Too Damn Expensive
According to a new report from S&P Global Mobility (via Automotive News), auto loans more than 60 days past due reached 1.69% in the first three months of this year. That’s actually higher than what we saw in 2009 and 2010 (1.46% and 1.43%, respectively) and higher than 2021, when everything was extra-weird at the height of the global pandemic. (Can’t say I miss that time, either!)
From AN’s story:
This trend is primarily concentrated in the subprime realm and independent lenders, where interest rates can be even higher than normal. But the news isn’t all bad here, apparently. One metric that looks at long-term payment performance is positive around new cars:
Either way, I say file this one to “Well, what do you expect?” Interest rates have gone way up in recent years, new and used cars are more expensive than ever, and we’re all still mired in economic weirdness of our own. Add in the fact that, while cars can be awesome, the unfortunate consequence of building society around them means people sometimes have to stretch their budgets beyond their limits to get to work or the kids to school. It’s easy to admonish people about buying within their means from behind your keyboards, but a lot harder to do that when the new car market is increasingly aimed at rich people and decent used cars are nigh-on impossible to find.
Either way, when the market gets set up this way, this is what happens as a result.
GM Will Make ICE-Powered Trucks Until The Heat Death Of The Universe
The wind-up on this one’s long, but worth it, I hope. Stay with me a second.
Last year, after spending years mired in editing and management, I found myself primarily writing again for a living. (Whether I’d recommend that or not really depends on the day you decide to ask me.) My work has mostly focused on how the auto industry is transforming, with a particular eye on electric vehicles. And the conclusion I keep coming to after months of talking to people in and around this transition—if you want to call it that—will be a lot slower, weirder and less certain than many car companies and the wider media would have you believe. And that’s before you even get to electrifying other global markets that may not have as easy and reliable electricity access as more developed countries.
Take GM, for example. It has some very ambitious EV plans. It’s building battery factories like crazy in America to take advantage of new tax rules. It’s got what seems to be an exciting lineup of EVs coming, though it feels more off in the distance than we expected (when was the last time you saw a Cadillac Lyriq outside of a Detroit-area press car fleet? For me, the answer is never.) And though GM has committed to being “zero-emissions” by 2035, its own CEO has admitted it’s going to be a while before EVs are both affordable and profitable and it’s going to sink a ton of money into ICE truck and SUV production in the meantime to pay that bill.
This brings me, finally, to my point: I think GM’s gonna be selling those ICE trucks and SUVs for a long, long time. Possibly past 2035. Possibly forever. They’re too profitable not to, their core customer base may not be best served by EVs or the charging infrastructure for a long time, and there’s nothing to say GM can’t move its own goalposts—especially if a bunch of other automakers decide to do the same.
Case in point: GM’s making some huge investments into Duramax diesel trucks, according to the Detroit News:
General Motors Co. is investing $920 million at its Ohio Duramax operations for production of diesel engines for future heavy-duty trucks, the company announced last week. The investment supports GM’s future full-size heavy-duty truck business. Product details and timing related to GM’s coming HD powertrain trucks were not released.
The DMAX news came after GM made several investment announcements at its full-size truck and SUV assembly plants over the last few weeks.
Yes, this is different from the last truck investment. Those were gas trucks made in Texas and Indiana:
The automaker is investing $632 million at its Fort Wayne Assembly Plant for production of the next-generation internal combustion engine light-duty Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups. It’s also investing more than $500 million at its Arlington plant where the Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban; GMC Yukon and Yukon XL; and Cadillac Escalade and Escalade-V are manufactured.
That’s $2.52 billion for diesel and gas trucks and SUVs, if you need help with the math. (You’re welcome!) Now, I’m not saying GM shouldn’t do this, necessarily; the demand for these trucks is clearly there, it has to make profits like any other company, and this is how it’ll finance this possible electric revolution. All of this makes sense. And to be fair, GM’s making even bigger investments into batteries and EV tech, too. I do believe it’s serious about the future being largely electric.
Just know that GM will be making these ICE trucks until there’s absolutely no ounce of demand left for them on earth, and the ones it’s set to make over the next decade or more now will be on the road for a long, long time. The big trucks are not going anywhere. If we do move away from ICE vehicles, they’ll be the last to go, if they ever do.
Mazda Eyes Panasonic Partnership For Batteries, Which Is Good
Having said all of that, the market is what it is right now; private and public investments into the battery sector are skyrocketing globally. Even Japan’s automakers, which have been historically EV-skeptical for a host of reasons, are hustling out of bed after China gave them a wake-up call.
One of them is Mazda. It’s got big plans for electrification and EVs, which is tough for them as one of the few small, independent players left in the space. Now we know it’s potentially looking to partner with tech giant Panasonic on batteries, including some made in North America to take advantage of tax deals. Here’s Reuters:
Such an effort on lithium-ion batteries is likely to carry Mazda a step closer to ramping up production of EVs, in a 1.5-trillion-yen ($10.6-billion) spending plan it unveiled in November to drive electrification of vehicles.
In the partnership, Panasonic Energy would supply Mazda with automotive cylindrical lithium-ion batteries made in Japan and North America for Mazda EVs expected to be rolled out in the latter half of this decade, the companies said in a statement.
A Mazda spokesperson declined to say exactly what battery cells the Hiroshima-based automaker was planning to use in its EVs, adding that it would hold talks with an eye to secure supply from 2025-2027 onwards or later.
[…] Japan said on Friday it would boost support for domestic battery production to up to $2.2 billion, pledging support to Toyota and other makers in a push for greater economic supply chain security.
I point this out for two reasons: one, I get the growing sense that Japan’s increasingly freaked out about the growing EV space and its place in it. And two, perhaps selfishly, I’m a Mazda fan. I have a Mazda 3 and I love the car, and who doesn’t at least appreciate the Miata? I like what this brand does, I like the cars it builds and I want to see it survive into the future. I hope it can pull this off. The day we get a really competent, well-built, fun-to-drive Mazda with decent EV range will hopefully be a good one. The MX-30 ain’t it, kids.
Texas Backs Tesla Secession On The Charging War
Well, folks, it’s a rare day when the Lone Star State decides to regulate anything [Ed note: Well… there’s one thing they don’t mind regulating. – MH]. But now, Texas—the home base for Elon Musk’s companies, these days—is backing Tesla and its charging format in a very big way. Following moves by GM, Ford, Rivian and maybe others to use Tesla’s plug as the EV charging standard from 2025 onward instead of the more universally-used CCS plugs, Texas will now require charging companies to include both Tesla’s standard as well as CCS if they want to access federal funding for EV infrastructure.
In case you didn’t know, the Biden Administration is dumping $7.5 billion into grants to build EV fast chargers. The money goes to the states first, and then the states allocate that money to companies that apply. Now Texas says to get that money, companies have to build Tesla plus as well as CCS ones, in a story broken by Reuters:
Texas – home to Tesla’s headquarters and a new car factory complex – is the first state that will mandate Tesla’s charging technology, giving a boost to CEO Elon Musk’s hope of making it the national charging standard.
“The decision by Ford, GM, and now Rivian to adopt NACS changed requirements for Phase 1” of the rollout, the Texas Department of Transportation said in an email to Reuters on Tuesday, adding that it would require direct current fast chargers to have one CCS and one North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector.
Texas’s decision will put a ton of pressure on other states to adopt Tesla’s NACS, said Lew Cox, director of business development at MD7, which helps companies deploy chargers.
“It’ll effectively make an NACS the new charging standard,” Cox said.
That’s a pretty big coup. Texas is a gigantic car market and one whose long stretches of highway and huge rural population make it a tough but ultimately ideal contender for EV infrastructure. Requiring charging grants to carry both standards—at least for now—indeed all but guarantees Tesla’s charging takeover is an inevitability.
Your Turn
When do you think the last gasoline (or diesel, even, why not) vehicle will be made in America, and what is it? Sometime in the 2050s—that’s my bet. I do hope that at least by then they’ll mostly be hybrids or PHEVs to cut back on emissions, but even GM says it’s not interested in making that happen.
I hope there will never be a last day for cars with REAL engines (& if there is hope it’s past my lifetime) If forced, I’ll take synthetic fuels to use what we ALL already have, or hydrogen; just to spite the EV-Psycho’s
GM and ICE trucks… there is a practical side to this… they don’t have the BEV and battery cell production capacity to convert 100% of their truck sales to BEVs even if they wanted to. Maybe they will in 10 years, but not right now.
Regarding Panasonic and Mazda… YAY… Mazda is FINALLY taking a step toward doing what they need to do so they can build a competitive BEV.
As for when the last ICE vehicle will be made… Hard to say especially when you look at the big picture which includes commercial vehicles as well as exotic/specialty vehicles.
Consider that companies like Morgan exist. I’m gonna say there will still be some boutique ICE vehicles in production in the year 2100… unless emissions regs make them completely unsellable even if made to run on CNG or ethanol.
The last ICE will be made on the day of the nuclear holocaust that is probably coming sometime between 2025 and 2029. I can’t get much more specific than that.
If we’re going to bring back anything from the late aughts, I would like to feel like I did when I heard Obama speak from 2007 to 2009. For a brief moment, I felt like things really could be better.
Just fuckin’ call me Cassandra.
I’ve been telling people this has been coming and building for two damn years. And that it’s still not near the peak yet.
But while I’m here, let’s pick apart some incorrect information too.
Bzzt. Firstly, subprime loans at this point are basically “if you’re underwriting them, you’re either stupid or a scam.” Not “if you’re taking them out.” If you are actually writing them. That’s been true for over a year now. The only reason subprime worked at all in late-stage capitalism is because at a Fed rate of near 0, they could get blood from stones. With fed rates at “let’s blow up the economy again,” you can forget those shenanigans (which are oft better known as fraud.)
Secondly, independent lender rates vary widely and depending on the specific type of lender, are often significantly lower. Specifically I am referring to credit unions here. Two local CUs are currently underwriting 60 month new at 3.49% and used (’18-22 only) at 4.49%. “WHY?! HOW?!” Because while CUs are federally backstopped (NCUSIF administered by NCUA, not FDIC,) and they’re underwriting these loans to CU members, using CU member funds, based on the member’s actual ability to pay. Not the bullshit that is a ‘credit score.’ They will not write you a 3.49% for a $90,000 truck when you’re making $12.50 an hour, even if your credit score is 800.
Thirdly, lenders are as a point of absolute fact, free to offer loans at any interest they so choose. Period. They do not have to be higher than the fed rate. They don’t even have to make money on the loan if they don’t want to. So for example, my FDIC insured local bank will underwrite me a 6.34% – on a 48 month. Know why the 72 is 7.14%? Because shocker; every one of them is dead certain things are going to keep getting worse. Not because they think the fed rate is going back to near zero.
This is the typical mix of two specific types of bullshit: Survivorship Bias and Bogus Normalization. Basically, none of what they’re saying here is accurate or true except in that it’s accurate and true when you eliminate all the adverse conditions.
How do you do that? Survivorship bias; people who are in delinquency are not able to get new vehicles or get anyone to underwrite a new loan for them. Bogus Normalization? That’s easy; it’s new-vehicle originations over a 6 to 12 month period. Most delinquencies occur after 6 to 12 months of on-time payments.
Basically it’s chugging the kool-aid from behind rose-tinted beer goggles. And just use basic logic; damn near every one of those delinquencies already in the pipe was once an on-time. 99.9999% of people do not pick up a new car loan and try to get away with never making a single payment.
Join us next week as I explain to people who would rather ostrich what a ‘knock-on effect’ is and why people losing their transportation to work does even worse things.
You can write those checks out to “Cassandra” c/o RootWyrm’s Desk With The Head Shaped Dent.
DUH. BEVs do not and will not work, in your lifetime or mine, for many critical vocational tasks. Go ahead. Try and run a cherry picker’s hydraulic PTO off a BEV, see how fast range goes to zero. Forget anything that needs to operate long-haul or rural. And let’s see how much you insist on it when that means your power’s out for an extra 4+ hours, or your house burns down in a wildfire because the water truck couldn’t pump, or the ambulance takes an extra 25 minutes because the closest one is still charging, or your Amazon package takes an extra 3+ days because they lost 20,000lbs of capacity per trailer.
Like it or not, that’s the reality. And like it or not, electrifying these extremely critical things doesn’t make a damn bit of difference. You’re talking literally a fraction of a fraction of an immeasurably small portion of an even more impossibly small to measure footprint. No matter how much some of the greenwashers try to gin it up. Every single diesel pump truck and aircraft involved in fighting a wildfire combined doesn’t even add up to a millionth of the emissions of the wildfire itself.
Maybe someday in the far-flung future (and we are talking 50+ years, to be clear,) there will exist batteries with the required energy density and weight characteristics, and electrical infrastructure measured on the Kardashev scale to support this. But that day is not any time soon.
Yes, it would be nice if it was. I certainly wouldn’t mind. Hell, then I wouldn’t have to replace UPS batteries every 3 years. That alone is worth it to me. But alas, that is not the world we live in or are going to be living in any time soon.
One, yes, but more on that in a second. Two, it’s not selfish and you shouldn’t feel guilty. Mazda doesn’t make the most exciting or amazing cars. But they do generally make quality cars that do what they say on the tin. Which is more than you can say for most other manufacturers. (Looking at you again, Ford.)
So, it’s been a second. Japan isn’t so much freaking out about their place in the scheme of things (they just don’t do that, generally speaking.) However, they are freaking out at the prospect of not being viewed as the highest technology, and the knowledge that resources are extremely limited. And openly hostile countries are working toward monopolizing them.
Let me summarize Japan and China’s relationship for you in just two words: “HATE YOU.”
And that’s selling it short. Yes, they have normalized relations. Which are mostly used to insult each other and air long-standing unresolved grievances. China gifted some pandas to Ueno (yes, that Ueno) Zoo allegedly as a gesture of friendship. 90% of Japanese citizens view China negatively anyways; the numbers in China are the same or higher. Because lest you forget, Japan invaded China during WWII and committed, well. So many war crimes that they were having to come up with new terminology for some of the atrocities they inflicted from 1932 to 1945.
It should come as exactly zero surprise that a lot of the architects and executors of these war crimes were never punished. And, uh, yeah. Let’s just say Shinzo Abe’s repeated insistence that there was no evidence Japan ever committed any war crimes and if they did they were justified did not help things. But hey, they apologized in for the comfort women in … <checks notes> 2014. Specifically to South Korea. Not China. China? Japan still accuses the few remaining Chinese victims of being paid recruits. And then there was the whole Nanjing thing. (But hey, they apologized half-assedly in 1995. While Abe’s party continues to deny that it ever happened to this day.)
And guess who’s trying to monopolize the limited supplies of lithium required to make batteries? Hint: it ain’t any of the Zaibatsu. So yes. Japan is pretty much freaking out. Because China (with multiple Olympic gold medals in corporate espionage and IP theft – some of them are even genuine!) is being viewed as technologically ahead of them, and also is actively moving to cut them off from necessary resources.
My proven accurate crystal ball doesn’t go anywhere near that far forward. Nor can it fully account for the level of fuckery, naked corruption, and blatant lawlessness in the US. (I mean, yeah, maybe like 75% of the time but that’s because I always just pick the worst option I can imagine.)
That said, I guarantee you that the USDA (who is responsible for USFS) is going to be running diesel and avgas well into the 2050’s no matter what federal agency mandates get handed down. They’ve got 193 million acres of land that is basically illegal to develop on to cover, and a funding system and budget that isn’t adequate to cover fire fighting costs even after they cancel literally everything else.
I drove an EV through the Texas panhandle (North of Amarillo) and into Colorado cattle/bison country. The farmers and ranchers there won’t be able to switch to EVs until we have 900 mile range (400 miles when towing at 75MPH), sub-15 minute charge times and battery backups at their homes to replace diesel tanks. All at a price that’s competitive with their dually 1 ton diesel truck. I love EVs but they aren’t ready for that use case yet.
That use case is a waste of the technology considering the embodied energy that goes into producing these things. A 900 mile range truck with a 500 kWh pack in the truck, plus another 500 kWh pack for storing energy at the farm, is enough battery to make almost FORTY Solectria Sunrise-like sedans that each seat 5 people and could have a 200+ mile range.
Fossil fuels have a legitimate use case until we have better technology. And this particulr use case in only a small portion of overall fossil fuel use.
With today’s tech, absolutely a waste. If any of the promised solid state battery breakthroughs happen, maybe not. I’m not holding my breath for anyone to have solid state batteries figured out and commercially viable for at least 10 years.
“I’m not holding my breath for anyone to have solid state batteries figured out and commercially viable for at least 10 years.”
I remember 15 years ago when solid state batteries that would completely up-end everything were “just around the corner, pinkie-swearsie!”
At this point I’m convinced hydrogen will actually win in the long run, because the fueling and tankage infrastructure remain simply engineering/finance challenges rather than the fundamental physics problem that it appears is hindering dramatic leaps in battery tech.
Nah. Hydrogen is 99% waste of energy, just a vaporwave project from petroleum lobbies.
“This isn’t exactly a spicy hot take, but I really can’t say I miss the late 2000s…There’s nothing from that era that I’d like to see come back today…”
At first, I thought this was an exaggeration but then I gave it a good think.
What about the…uh…
Well, there was the…
I mean, you can’t forget about the…uhm…
Shit.
That show “Better Off Ted” was pretty funny.
Yeah it was. It should not have been cancelled.
Yes, people have been drunk and disorderly in their car buying. No, this is not the next housing crash.
Cars are a much smaller portion of the economy than houses. They are also much easier to liquidate, particularly in an era of used car shortages.
It’s not a great scenario, but it’s not the sky falling either.
This may be true, but I hate to inform you that the housing market is… a bit out of control.
I saw a Lyriq without M plates at Costco this weekend.
M stand for Municipal here in Illinois. I know you meant Manufacturer plates.
Municipal plates here are X plates.
Xunicipal.
The Texas electric grid should be well suited to EV adoption. A cold day in hell, literally.
If it gets that cold just take a vacation to sunny Mexico.
Afaik direct sales are still not permitted in Texas, has that changed?
If the question was “when will the last ICE vehicle be built in the US?” I’d say as you can build a working ICE from scratch with basic tools in your garage there will be someone somewhere messing around with them forever, like steam engines and horses.
But gasoline and Diesel will both die as fuels a few years after synthetic fuels become affordable to make in bulk.
I’d like to think some time in the 2030s. Before the ban on new ICEs comes in, so we can just ban the actual problem, which is burning fossil fuels. Then carry on with carbon neutral ICEs or EVs for everyone depending on personal preference or use case.
So I think maybe 2060, because the future has mostly been massively disappointing so far.
I think synthetic fuels would be fantastic. Better living through chemistry.
The last ICE vehicle built in the US by an actual manufacturer will be in 2035, because enough large states have banned sales of ICE vehicles as of that date to make it uneconomical to continue building them beyond that
“The last ICE vehicle built in the US by an actual manufacturer will be in 2035″
Nah… they’ll still be building some ICEs after that… for off-road use as well as replacement engines for classic cars.
I can see boutique Harley derived ICE being built for freedom enthusiasts for decades after any actual ban on ICE.
Plus snowmobiles.
By then they’ll all be dead of diabetes or drunk driving or emphysema.
So now I’m wondering if the 27% tariff against China was good or not. Like if China started shipping their cheapo cars here, then it’d be like the late 70s/early 80s when American makes got a wake up call and started building smaller/better/cheaper.
Without cheaper competition the car makes will charge whatever they can get away with.
As for the last gas(p) for internal combustion, it is a looong ways out, maybe never if synthetic fuels take off, or if we figure out cheap hydrogen and just switch to that similar to lpg conversions.
Without cheaper competition, the bottom 80% of Americans will eventually find themselves priced out of car ownership altogether in the coming decades if current trends hold. I think that is what the ruling class wants, in order to “save the planet”. They’ll likely eventually ban you from even owning an e-bike, while they continue to guzzle away rapidly depleting fossil fuels in their megayachts and private jets.
They’ll have to take my e-bike from my cold, dead hands!
I wish I kept up on the whole solar panel tariff saga from what 10yrs ago? I have no idea what the deal is now, how it impacted the industry up to now, etc. Cause I would imagine the whole IRA & etc to keep out Chinese EVs is going to play out the same.
Personally, I think mass-produced gasoline vehicles will be made for as long as industrial civilization exists. If it collapses, then the last ones will be made, and that will also apply to EVs.
I’m generally not a fan of gasoline powered vehicles and am highly fond of EVs, but gasoline vehicles have their place and purpose, and I’m against politicians trying to find ways to ban them, wither direct or indirect, and I’m also not at all fond of modern EVs that are built to be mostly unrepairable and disposable, which defeats their entire purpose.
And auto prices have gotten more than a bit nutty. It needs to all collapse back to some level of sanity, but my fear/prediction is that it won’t. I predict that in the 2030s, we’ll have large electric trucks and SUVs/CUVs affordable via financing for the upper-20% of the population, and screw everyone else as repairable used cars greatly dwindle in number.
You’re right, but it’s even worse than that.
Fun fact: to be in the top 20%, your household only needs to make $153k before taxes. A Ford F-150 Lightning is around $52k (after tax credits) which is only a little more than the average new car price of $48k. But based on the 20%-of-takehome guideline, and a 48-mo loan at 6.5% interest, you’d need to make at least $220k for that to be “affordable” in the traditional sense. That’s the top 10% of households.
I don’t want to go off on a long rant, but between stagnant wages and rising prices of necessities, the middle class just doesn’t have money to spend anymore. And so, industries steadily pivot towards serving only those top few with money to spend — those who not coincidentally tend to be the biggest shareholders of those industries.
The “middle class” isn’t actually middle class anymore. They’ve been brought down a rung into the working class. The working class has become poor. Debt and dual-income households have been used to make up the difference with declining real wages over the last 50 years, in spite of productivity per worker doubling since then. Nearly all of the gains have gone to the upper 0.1%. The link below gives a better indication as to the reality of class in the U.S.:
https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteristics-income-brackets/
Then consider the 2015 NADA survey that found the average individual income of a new car buyer, whether that new car was a low-end Mitsubishi Mirage or a Ferrari and everything in between, put them in the upper quintile of income earners, and then consider that it’s only gotten worse since. I think your assessment that those who can afford a new car are “the top 10% of households” is entirely correct.
Good link. I think many straddle several classes; my life is a mix of working class, middle class, and managerial class. As in combining some of the worst parts of each of those… the working hours, responsibilities, and education of managerial class, middle class income, working class housing expenditures and “being a target of the state”.
Well, considering Tesla is the #3 US automaker, #1 electric car seller, and the automakers that have adopted their charger so far already represent 35% of the market, with one or two more likely to adopt it soon, I guess it does make sense not to ignore the realities on the ground as they’ve developed. But, it doesn’t seem like a government mandate should be necessary, you’d think charging companies would want to include Tesla compatibility on their own just to avoid missing out on being able to sell electricity to such a large chunk of the market. Seems like a problem that probably would have just corrected itself without intervention if trends just continue as they have
Elon Musk’s empire will continue to expand via be government benefit till
moraleHis tweets engagement ratio improves.Consulting Crystal Ball: The last ICE car produced will be 2108 Ford F-350. Buyer: David Anderson of New Tallahassee in South Mars needs to tow his Space Bass fishing spaceship three weekends a Mars year.
That’s 1.5 times per earth year. Are you saying people on Mars will use their boats less than on Earth? Don’t they have Memorial & Labor day holiday weekends on Mars? This Mars place doesn’t sound like all that its cracked up to be…
Look, it’s pretty cold on Mars. There’s not a lot of good boating days.
On the positive side, since the years are longer, the months would be longer so March 32nd could actually exist.
Labor Day was abolished by President Howard Schultz in the year 2032. Memorial Day only counts if your in the province of Martian New Jersey. Being a new world there has only been time to create three holidays. First Landing day. Contact Day, which gets weird. And Toyotathon, which is the holiest month on Mars and you aren’t allowed to fish unfortunately
If your car is repossessed, it’s your own fault for using an exorcist you found on Facebook Marketplace.
Well then where to YOU get your Exorcists then, Mister???
I bought an exorcize machine from Chuck Norris called the Total Hymn. Folds up and fits under the bed when I’m not using it.
… And using them twice
“GM Will Make ICE-Powered Trucks Until The Heat Death Of The Universe” — or at least until the heat death of the planet.
Humans will oxidize every molecule of carbon on Earth, first intentionally, then unintentionally. Just what we do.
Car Manufacturers: use Covid/supply chain excuse to drive the prices of their products into the stratosphere….OH YEAH give us those sweet sweet profits, baby! *deliriously aims pistol directly at wiener*
Regular people whose backs carry the entire country’s economy: forced to stretch themselves beyond their means to have a basic necessity. *time bomb starts winding down*
The whole ass situation: explodes when clock hits 0, like it did with housing in 2008
The pistol: goes off, vaporizes wiener
Car Manufacturers: WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED THIS?!? PLEASE HELP! MY DING DONG GOT BLOWN OFF AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHY! PLEASE GOVERNMENT, STEP IN AND FIX THIS TRAVESTY!
it’s an old story often repeated:
privatize profits
socialize losses
I’m certainly not rooting for another 2008, as probable as it is.
But I can’t help but wonder what car manufacturers are going to do to pivot when it happens. Yeah the bailouts and all that, you can bet that’ll happen. But beyond that, Ford only has one entry level product that they don’t even try to build enough of (Maverick Hybrid). GM sells the Trax, and that’s about it. Stellantis has… literally nothing. Not a single car I could afford to buy new. Woof.
It’s gonna be a scramble to federalize some subcompacts/compacts from other markets when the reckoning occurs, I guess.
Depends on what you mean by vehicle. I think the last diesel semi truck will be made quite a while after the last gas crossover, and the last diesel dump truck will be way after that. Certain applications will likely never move away from internal combustion, because it has some distinct and irreplaceable advantages.
The last ICE vehicle will probably be made in the year 2148
I would hold you to that but I’m not expecting to be around in 2048, much less 2148. We should start an ICE death pool. Send me your money today and I’ll pay up in 2148 pending the outcome.
That simply is not true. It depends on how you define “decent used car” If you are wanting a sub $20K car that is 3 or 4 years old and has less than a 100K miles, then you are correct, but that is no longer the definition of a decent used car. I have a 2011 Toyota Camry with 165,000 miles. It is still without exception the most reliable car I have ever owned (including my wife’s 2017 GMC). Cars are lasting longer, older cars are much safer than they used to be, and people need to shift their perspective. I would argue that a 10 year old car today with 150,000 miles would be far more reliable than a 5 year old car with 50,000 miles was 15 to 20 years ago. Perspectives on what reliable transportation is needs to change.
I spent $1100 on a 92 Accord and it’s been more reliable than many 2023 models.
It’s not even hard to find a decent used car for under $3k. I’m guessing he just is of the sad, misguided and obviously untrue opinion that a car over five years old isn’t any good.
Reliable, but also objectively a deathtrap by modern standards.
Deathtrap? Your tolerance of risk seems to be abnormally low. Sure modern US cars are safer, but calling a 92 Accord a death trap would be laughable to most people in the world.
I love me a ’92 Accord. But in the Northeast there are maybe half a dozen left that aren’t swiss cheese death traps. And at this point the ones that are in decent conditional are oddly very expensive in that they are survivors.
Good on you finding a good deal on a great car, but yes, a decent used car is awfully hard to find for under 3k. My brother just paid 6k for a 2003 CRV. He was in a bidding war for it, lol.
Yeah, love that generation of Accords
Also, there’s still several new cars on the market under $20,000, and many, many options under $30,000. Just because you read a Business Insider article that popped up on your Edge homepage that says the average price of a new car is $40,000 doesn’t mean you have to feel obligated to spend at least $40,000 the next time you go shopping. If you just need reliable, practical transportation and can’t afford $40k+, then don’t spend $40k+ and get something cheaper. I have little sympathy for someone who goes out and buys a top of the line big truck or SUV to get groceries and do the daily commute to the office park,and then wants to whine about not being able to do Disney World this summer because the car payments are too high. Nobody told you to buy that, I don’t like to be in the habit of blaming people for their mistakes, but I do at least expect them to own up to it
Toyota corollas and Camrys start at $21k and $26k so I tend to agree right now. There was absolutely a time where those kinds of cars didn’t exist on lots though, and the cars that were around had exorbitant markups, so lots of people did get burned if they couldn’t wait 6 months for delivery (major breakdowns or crashes). Now though? Totally self inflicted.
We financed about $15k when we bought both of our cars, and I thought the monthly payment was obscene. I can’t imagine these folks financing $60k plus vehicles, especially those that end up underwater me as soon as they drive off the lot. Did y’all learn nothing from 2008?
Some dealers never marked up, when I was shopping early last year, I skipped over 4 dealerships that had what I was looking for, because they were putting on ADMs, until I found one that was selling for straight MSRP. My parents bought a Camry back in 2021 during the height of it, drove 4 hours out of their way to find a dealer that wasn’t doing markups, it was the only “car” on the lot aside from one Supra in the showroom. Don’t accept bad behavior from dealers and they won’t keep doing it.
Under ideal circumstances, you’d get a discount off list, but I don’t have much of a problem paying that under current circumstances. If I’m even looking at a car in the first place it’s because I’m already OK with the manufacturer’s suggested price
THIS. I’ve been looking at sub-10k cars on Marketplace as possible replacements for my ten year old 4Runner (still worth 20k!) and I’m seeing a lot of decent cars in that price range. Plenty of sub-150k mile Hondas and Toyota in that range that have tons of life left. It’s a shame the average person thinks they have to have a new or nearly new car to be reliable.
I would say the new/used comments from that section should be reversed, in a way – “new cars increasingly aimed at rich people and decent used cars are nigh-on impossible to find” –
I’ll add, cars of the last ~10-20 years are certainly reliable, but an older car still has suspension components, tires, brakes, etc. that could be needed and if you’re a buyer taking out even a simple short-term loan, throwing several hundred on top of that in maintenance might be tough if you’re already on a budget.
I often push against the concept of “used cars are so much better these days” because used cars still involve something that many people on here often ignore. RISK.
If you’re like any number of people who are cash poor but need transportation to work in this country, bad luck in the form of a used car is financially crippling. Yeah, if the market was flooded with well maintained (or even mediocrely maintained) Camrys and every single one of them was a lock to be solid, then that strategy would be a slam dunk. And for people who can afford the potential pratfalls, it’s a great bet. But it doesn’t work for everyone.
Again, I still think it makes a lot of sense for people who desperately just need a locked in cost for reliable transportation, a small, cheap, new car is the way to go, provided you’ve been responsible with credit.
Plus the time involved searching for cars, coordinating with the seller and meeting with them if a private sale, ideally taking the car for a pre-purchase inspection, DMV trip for registration, all that. For many of us that’s part of the fun, for the average buyer that’s a lot of time that they may not have at their disposal.
We like to pretend that car dealers are the worst (they are so it’s fair) but man, you can get burnt just as bad or worse by a private party sale.
This comment section is going to be loaded with stories of people getting great deals on cars, but most of us are obsessive car geeks applying years of obsessive car geek knowledge. And we still get burnt sometimes! So it’s worth considering the typical person and how miserable/frightening the car buying process can be.
I’m glad to see this viewpoint represented here. There just aren’t a lot of options for people who want cheap, honest transportation that comes with a new car warranty. And a lot of folks forget that people don’t have the cash to drop on something that would be equivalently reliable. Say you have $4k in cash. You could buy something with cash outright, but good luck finding something decent, in terms of reliability or safety. Or, you put that $4k down on a new Nissan Versa or Mitsubishi Mirage or Kia Rio, and walk away with a reasonable payment, a good warranty and the peace of mind that, for a few years, auto repairs won’t be on your list of expenses.
Going forward, if bio-fuels ever become a thing than I see a future where some vehicles will be all-electric drive but will have a range extender connected to a companion generator. Think Mazda MX-30 but with decent range and performance and size with a flying Dorito (or Liquid Piston or Omega-One) rotary and smaller solid-state batteries. Could scale up to the largest vehicles too. Still ICE.
For markets outside developed nations where there’s little to no charging infrastructure ICE vehicles will still be required and may never go away.
Also pulling for Mazda to survive. I’d be first in line with my checkbook (and I bet you would too) if they put the RX-VISON into production.,,
https://news.mazdausa.com/vehicles-rx-vision-concept
Me, watching this unsustainable financial-automotive landscape slowly implode:
George-Costanza-Eating-Popcorn.GIF
( ━☞´◔‿ゝ◔`)━☞ Spot on!