It’s so hard to be an automaker today. Especially an American automaker. There’s a big union fight coming up, automotive financing is getting tough, and China is making it difficult to export key materials. So what’s GM gonna do? Pick a fight with Apple. What? We’ve written about this before, but… what?!? Why?
My head is so confused right now. I’m just so amazed at the audacity of this. Let’s just get right into it.
GM’s CarPlay Move Is So, So, So, So Sketch
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto easily solved a problem that automakers themselves, after much effort, had not solved. It allowed anyone to connect their phone to a car and suddenly access the features they wanted, using a UI they were familiar with, in a fairly seamless way. While early iterations were not perfect, we’ve all become used to it and it has improved in small but meaningful ways.
Now, General Motors is trying to throw this out for its EVs in favor of a self-developed interface (its gas-powered cars will still have CarPlay, for now). The audacity is striking. It’s like me one day deciding to throw out my refrigerator because I’m gonna make better ice. I’m gonna dig a hole in the ground in winter, fill it up with water and sawdust, and come back a few months later and shave off the tastiest damn frozen liquid you ever deigned to drop in an Arnold Palmer.
Or not. The ice maker works fine!
The headline for one of our first stories on this was “GM Getting Rid Of Apple CarPlay And Android Auto Is Such A Ridiculous Risk, I Don’t Think They’ll Actually Do It” and Jason opined:
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto are incredibly popular, with a vast number of car buyers demanding the systems as a prerequisite to even consider a new car. This seems, to me, like a stellar act of not just stepping, but actually stomping, with golf shoes, on one’s own metaphorical dong that I feel confident in predicting that even GM will, at some point in the near future, walk this back. I mean, I hope they do. Or that they prove me wrong about this being a bad idea and I have to eat my own socks.
Well. Get out your golfing shoes because it’s happening and dealers are not super excited about it. From a Detroit Free Press article we get some interesting nuggets from a GM dealer source:
“I don’t even know the name of (GM’s) new system, much less what benefits our customers can expect,” the dealer source said. “Nobody has had any communication from GM. What am I supposed to tell my customers?”
CarPlay is available in basically every new vehicle and it’s now the de facto car operating system. It sometimes doesn’t play well with redundant, in-car systems, but mostly around using features like Sirius XM. Guess what? Apple, which is great at UI, is planning to fix a lot of those issues in its next CarPlay rollout.
What’s GM doing? From the piece above:
People familiar with GM’s system say it will use a Bluetooth connection to provide the same access to phone calls, text messages and audio as CarPlay and Android Auto. It also allows drivers to access built-in features, like SiriusXM and the automaker’s navigation system without having to switch from CarPlay to another display, as is necessary in many vehicles.
However, the GM system will be unable to reach into your iPhone’s contacts list for commands like, “Directions to Carole’s house.”
GM responds that all its owners will have to do is create a contacts list in their Google account.
WHAT?!? I hope you’re all getting ready to walk your uncle through setting up a contacts list in his Google account. I can’t wait for the average Chevy dealer to deliver that line.
This seems so much like GM’s classic bad-timing (i.e. it finally has an EV hit with the Bolt just in time to stop making the Bolt) that it’s almost parody. It’s solving a problem that, it seems, is basically about to be solved.
I have a theory for why this is happening. Carmakers are still committed to the idea of consumers subscribing for car services even if consumers hate the idea. As cars become increasingly digital, those subscription services will be integrated into the infotainment. If someone else controls that infotainment it’s going to get much, much harder to do that.
If this is what’s happening, then this is beancounter-first thinking (another historically GM-trait) and a phenomenally huge risk given that the company is about to launch a bunch of new products into a crowded marketplace and need to start clawing sales back from Tesla (which, famously, also does not have CarPlay). I’m excited about the 2024 Chevy Equinox EV. It has the possibility of being a great product.
Could this kill GM’s EV momentum? I have no idea. I just know the risk is out-of-this-world high. Maybe it’ll pay off!
[Editor’s Note: I, for one, am hoping GM can pull something out of its hat. The company is filled with tens of thousands of immensely capable engineers and product planners, after all. -DT].
The UAW Is Not Playing
You know the cliché about reality TV participants saying “I’m not here to make friends” over-and-over again? Look at the video above. Honestly, if you are not aware of this meme you probably live a fuller, richer life than I do (“This is Flavor of Love, not Flavor of Friendship” is al all-timer, though).
Guess who else isn’t here to make friends? New United Auto Workers President Shawn Fein, whose name does sorta sound like the formerly militant Irish political group in a way I think is almost a little too on-the-noise.
There’s a longstanding tradition of United Auto Workers Presidents shaking hands with automaker CEOs at the beginning of negotiations. But there’s also a tradition of UAW leaders being extremely corrupt and making deals with automakers that weren’t always to the benefit of workers on the line, which is why union members, somewhat historically, sacked the traditional leadership.
I appreciate this story from The Detroit News, which gets right to the point:
Gestures at previous handshake events — particularly a hug between convicted former UAW President Dennis Williams and Sergio Marchionne, the late former CEO of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV before it merged to create Stellantis — have become symbols of the years-long corruption scandal that entailed FCA executives bribing officials of the Detroit-based union.
So, no handshakes. It sounds petty, sort of, but it’s symbolic.
“The members come first,” Fain said in a statement. “I’ll shake hands with the CEOs when they come to the table with a deal that reflects the needs of the workers who make this industry run. When the 150,000 autoworkers at Ford, GM, and Stellantis receive the respect they are due for their sacrifice in generating the historic profits of the past decade, then we can proceed with a handshake.”
‘This is Flavor of Love, not Flavor of Friendship,” indeed.
So, yeah, GM is opening up an invasion on its eastern flank while still figuring out how to deal with battles out west. Moscow by October!
[Editor’s Note: For the record, we are very much here to make friends. – JT]
China Wants To Limit Gallium Exports
Xi Jinping's latest speech emphasizes: 1. Speaking Chinese, 2. Eating Chinese food, 3. Wearing Chinese clothing, 4. Using Chinese products, 5. Traveling in China, 6. Celebrating Chinese festivals, 7. Buying Chinese goods, 8. Having a Chinese mindset (1 of 2) https://t.co/KVOsSZzEUh
— John 'legacy blue check' Voelcker (@johnvoelcker) July 11, 2023
China has decided, somewhat predictably, to de-Westernize. The country has learned enough from Western automakers, Western brands, et cetera, and it’s ready to go out on its own, thank you very much.
Learning about electric cars is just realizing, over-and-over again, that the material necessities of batteries, controllers, and motors are different than the material necessities of gas-powered vehicles, and most of the materials that are needed are made, found, and processed in China.
Today’s thing you maybe didn’t know about and now need to be an expert on? Gallium. Specifically, gallium nitride, which is a light, cheap-to-produce, and super conductive metal that makes on-board car chargers work way, way better.
Guess who makes a bunch of it? China. Guess who doesn’t make a bunch of it? Basically everyone else. Guess what China did? Yup, it decided to limit the export of gallium nitride.
The auto industry is only now recovering from a pandemic-fueled global semiconductor shortage that forced automakers to halt production of some models and in some cases to leave unfinished vehicles standing waiting for a single chip.
Alastair Neill, a director at the Critical Minerals Institute, said that automakers who are in the early stages of designing their next generation of EVs could opt for silicon carbide, even though gallium nitride performs about 30% better, rather than risk a fresh supply chain headache.
“If you are already banking on gallium nitride and designing it into your platform, then you’re in trouble,” he said.
Another front for GM, fantastic!
Used Car Wholesale Prices Are Down, But New Car Dealers Have Fresh Ammo
Used car prices, as measured by Cox Automotive’s Manheim Used Vehicle Value Index (different Mannheim), should start going down. Here’s how Automotive News describes what’s happening:
The Manheim index was 10.3 percent lower last month compared with the same month in 2022, according to Cox. The company also reported nonadjusted figures for the Manheim index — down 3.8 percent in June from May and down 10.1 percent year over year.
The 4.2 percent decline is “among the largest declines in [Manheim index] history” and the largest since the intensification of the COVID-19 pandemic in April 2020, when the index “plunged 11.4 percent,” said Chris Frey, senior manager of economic and industry insights for Cox Automotive.
While most analysts doesn’t seem to think these declines will continue forever (there are not enough cars coming off-lease, for instance), it’s still kinda good news. Will this mean a ton of people flocking to used cars again? Not quite.
Used cars, like new cars, are still financed by a large number of people. The average interest rate for a used auto loan in June for a person with 781+ credit score was 6.79%. That’s pretty high. For a new vehicle it was 5.18%. As CarDealershipGuy pointed out in his newsletter “Some manufacturers are offering special financing for new cars, with low rates that are unattainable for used cars.”
If you can get a 4% APR on a 60-month term for a $50,000 new car with $10,000 down, that’s a $730 monthly payment. Compare that to a CPO car at $43,000 with $10,000 down and a 7% rate and it’s a $650 a month payment. Would you pay $80 more a month for a new car? Maybe!
The Big Question
Is it possible GM pulls this off? Give me odds? 1/100? 1/1000? 1/10?
I still don’t understand the nonsense of Google/Apple play whatever it is. I drive a 2009 Jeep, I plug my phone in, hit play on my music and drive. What more do I need? In the very rare time I need directions somewhere, I tell my phone where I want to go, and it gives me great voice directions to where I am going. I guess I see no problem with any of this because I grew up when Cell phones first started coming out.
Infotainment doesn’t matter to me. Just wasted money if you ask me for something I wouldn’t use.
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You live somewhere with little to no traffic and almost exclusively drive between the same dozen spots. Got it.
What a lot of the commenters aren’t understanding:
Why do you need CarPlay or Android Auto when:
You don’t have to give up anything.
Imagine not having to exit Android Auto/CarPlay to change your climate settings or listen to the radio.
The convenience of plugging in your phone and having all my music, contacts, etc. readily available without any additional steps is pretty alluring.
And things like climate control can be addressed with good design principles without having to leave AA/Car Play to adjust.
You give up your whole life you built around your phone for the last 10 years. Maps favourites is a big pain point for me, since the stupid car uses Google maps (not with my account – which would be at the moment useless anyway) not Apple Maps. Even when logging in to Apple Music on the “head unit” I still don’t have all the functionality I have in the native Apple app. My music library is stored in the cloud through Apple Music.
That’s your fault for buying from an iPhone which whole thing is not playing nice with others.
Android phone users will sign into the headunit and have all their stuff there.
One has, essentially, a 50/50 shot to have the “proper” OS for something like this. If one is using Apple for 10+ years before all of this, how is it “their fault” for choosing Apple? If GM had chosen Apple for their vehicle’s OS architecture, none of this would be applicable to the commenter above, and the people using Android would be the ones with the issue here.
Regardless, I’d doubt that the apps on the GM OS are going to be as fully featured and filled out as a phone app. I still have plenty of time to be proven wrong, however the main point from above still stands.
1) So does my phone, which means I don’t have to pay for expensive nav options.
2) My phone already has music players installed, my head unit doesn’t need them.
3) Death to digital climate controls!
4) Most of my music library is already on my phone
5) CarPlay already allows windowing apps
I already have what GM is trying to serve up. The problem is that GM is seeing dollar signs for:
1) Being able to serve up yet another subscription service
3) Being able to push (force) more expensive infotainment options
2) Being able to absorb and resell location data and whatever else they feel like
I don’t want my car doing this to me, because my phone already does too much of it. Plus, here’s an angle not being discussed much. Apple doesn’t play nicely with other ecosystems. Whatever cockamamie thing Google writes for GM will not work as seamlessly as CarPlay does, period.
You have to give up all your data to google. Some folks don’t like that.
Like me, although I do it all the time. Alas, every time I try Apple Maps it sucks.
Order us some golf shoes…
The Android crowd might be flexible, but the Apple folk will be Oh, hell, no.
Then imagine the dealer saying “Google contacts list.” From prospect to pissed off in under 6 seconds.
GMs system wont be able to access your contacts list?Why??
Pretty much every app ever has a list of things they can access on your phone,and many ive used can absolutely see my contacts.
Is this an apple thing?I’ve always had android phones
My 2013 Toyota Entune system can access my contacts list. I don’t understand how this new one doesn’t pull it off.
But that is why everyone hates OEM software like this.
I’ll agree that GM has some talented hardware engineers. See: Cruze Eco that was the most efficient gas (highway) car sold for years after that trim was dropped.
But software? Yeah, nah, they’re crunk if they think they can do better than Apple or Google. Not unless they basically do what Volvo did. Which was shove Google money and tell them “make sure it says Volvo when it boots up and we get the data too”.
Ah yes. Rather than use Android or Apple for “free” to find my way to the closest Taco Bell at 1am, I would much rather have to pay $199/year or some other outrageous price to keep Chevy’s maps up to date, etc. Or they will do some BS where it’s “free” for 3 years (but it its really just rolled into the MSRP) in hopes that somehow $199/year is more palatable when it expires. And if you have multiple cars that require a subscription? GFY!
Well it’s Android Automotive, it just uses Google maps. So in theory you don’t have pay anything to chevy. But you would need a data connection, which you can buy through onstar…
Apple App Store and Android Play Store take 30% of everything sold through them. That is why you can no longer buy an e-book on your cellphone Kindle app.
It is also why GM, who is drooling over car subscriptions, is thinking it can go it alone. And Tesla, whose cars have a big Apple overlap, doesn’t have CarPlay, so it can be done. Just not by GM.
Yeah except Tesla fans would buy a car with Elon’s actual shit smeared on the seats and still call him a genius
I hate that my Tesla doesn’t have CarPlay! And actually the Apple Maps routing is better than Google’s so it’s a let down having that in a modern car like Tesla. I hate I can’t choose my streaming video provider (only Disney and Netflix available on the Tesla). I hate I can’t have more games on the big Tesla screen. However, I was told by a Tesla representative that CarPlay is coming to Tesla so I’m hoping for the best (and planning to get a heads up unit to run CarPlay on it in my Tesla).
Now I ain’t no computer wizard. But this GM making their own interface, when we all ready have a pretty good one, seems like a giant exercise and taking the money and lighting it on fire. Could GM do it, sure, they could make something semi-functional given billions of dollars to make the 0011 do the thing. How much are they realistically going to save here, 10s of dollars per expensive car? I know these companies don’t like making friends. One has to wonder, would it benefit both Apple and GM to work together here. Seems like Tim Apple could take a few billion, and give the General something cool. Then the General wouldn’t have to become a software developer, and with that money saved restart Saturn.
This sort of thing is rampant in the modern technocapitalist world – “I can’t do what I want with your standard? Well I’m going to make my own standard! With blackjack! And hookers!”
Imagine if parts and software for vehicles were just brand agnostic? If there were actual standards that were adhered to/complied with? Repairs would be cheaper, economies of scale would be greater, and things would just work.
“But it stunts innovation!” Do you honestly think a brake caliper or a wheel hub or a trim clip is something companies actually innovate on?
But what if your brake caliper was also an NFT and Bluetooth, please invest.
Ah the great & wise Bender Bending Rodriguez, tell GM to bite my shiny metal ass.
FYI the new GM-made infotainment will be Android-based, so they’re not quite working with Apple on this one 🙂
why not work with Microsoft and just make Windows XP car edition? You could finally do whatever people with Excel spreadsheets at freeway in the new Silverado.
I finally took the time over the last week and a half to replace the head unit in my 2012 Prius v with a Pioneer unit with wireless Android Auto (and Carplay, but I won’t be using that), plus a subwoofer. It’s so much nicer than the factory setup, even if the head unit, install kit, and iDataLink interface cost >$1000.
It was like the dashboard was perfectly designed to have no good place to put a phone without blocking something important. Now I won’t need to take my phone out of my pocket at all.
So, I don’t know what GM is smoking here.
Is that the Pioneer head unit where the screen can retract so it fits a single DIN slot? I’ve been thinking of putting one of those in my 85 Toyota for something more modern
Nah…it’s a stationary floating 9″ touchscreen. It is single DIN, but it’s not quite as classy/fancy/discreet as a retracting one. DMH-WT3800NEX if you’re curious.
Crutchfield made the process as easy as it could’ve been.
Really, my only concern at this point is a retrospective “was having no good place to put my phone really worth $1000 to remedy?” but, as an economics major would say, the right price is what people are willing to pay…
Fellow Prius owner, where did you get the install kit for it? I’ve been thinking of doing the same thing after looking at car prices and the fact I can’t get a new Prius today even if I wanted to.
Got the system and install kit from Crutchfield. Once they know the car and system in question, they recommend different tiers of install kits, depending what features you want to preserve (usually just two tiers, a “keep everything” tier and a “bare minimum” tier).
Despite my fears it turned out to be an easier install than expected. I only had to break out the wire strippers for an antenna wire–everything else was just plug and play with harnesses.
The GM system will be good – I thought the setup in my Bolt was excellent. CarPlay is fine, I use it, but I’m blown away by how much angst this seems to be causing. I’ve seen commenters on other articles say they won’t buy a car without it…that’s insane.
Having to use GM’s navigation over Google Maps = no purchase from me, even with the GM employee discount I could get.
It’s funny to me that infotainment is more baked into the car now while cars can last longer than they used to, in-car technology is in flux, and a lot of people get new phones every year or two.
Now should be the time to have swappable head units. Want native Android? The completely unnecessary Amazon Auto? Apple’s car experience? A unit that just does AA or CP? A unit with knobs, buttons, and a screen that only connects to the backup cam? Something with no physical knobs because you don’t understand the benefit of not having to look away from the road? A new one because your preferences or technology change? We could have a great variety of head units, but manufacturers decided to integrate everything.
There’s a large portion of people out there that don’t have CarPlay in their current vehicle and it’s top of their list for their next car which still may be several years out. Not talking Toyota levels of late, but even say 2017-18 it wasn’t standard on every trim level of every car, and even some loaded models of popular vehicles didn’t have it. For a consumer iffy about going electric on their next car, it may make it all that much easier for them to just skip GM when shopping.
Honda’s products on the same architecture will be offering it, so it will be interesting to see if someone can then hack it into the GM products. (On Honda’s site the Prologue preview images have ACP/AA tiles on the infotainment screen and the switchgear is heavily GM, so it’s not like it’s just Honda parts on the Ultium skateboard.)
That said – I don’t think for a second that other OEMs wouldn’t also like to do the same thing or haven’t considered it, just don’t want to take the risk of not offering it. Honda is touting Google built-in in the new Accord Touring for example, though that’s more of a known entity.
General Motors, who has arguably been perfecting mediocrity for 50 years or so, is going to screw up something that works fine? Color me shocked. Shocked, I say.
Matt, y’all are completely on the wrong side of history here with the native Android head unit thing, and I can’t wait for you to be forced to admit it.
The reason you are all wrong is obvious – and the tell is that you keep mentioning “Doing away with CarPlay” – You’re all Apple zealots with no experience with Android.
A native Android head unit is light years better than a generic system that uses CarPlay and Android Auto.
Caveat: The only way GM can screw this up is if they get greedy and limit access to Google Play so they can force you to buy subscriptions to inferior GM apps. Which is something they are completely capable of doing. All bets are off if they go that route.
There’s the issue I expect. GM keeps talking about this as some sort of in-house special project, so I assume it’s not just natively Android. I’m hoping to be pleasantly surprised, because GM looks to be offering EVs I might want to buy, but I have to know how much they’re locking this down.
I’m not an Apple zealot, but I’m sick and tired of everything I use needing a different account and password into a different ecosystem. At least carplay works with what I’ve got and I don’t have to sign up for one more thing.
Or do it like some Stellantis vehicles where you get a great sized touch screen but you have to use their maps, etc with no support for Play/Auto. And then to add insult to it, attempt to bill you $199/year for map updates, etc.
Totally agree about Android. I wouldn’t consider Apple. It’s inscrutable to me.
Coming soon to a Google search near you, “How to disable GM’s infotainment system without affecting the warranty.”
Used prices going down? Might be time to sell my 10 year old 4Runner that’s still worth close to what I paid for it 4 years ago.
GM is being GM. I didn’t know I’d love Applecarplay so much until I had it (even if it occasionally discos for 10 seconds). I don’t get the appeal of wireless. Maybe it’s that I get the cheapest, smallest phone and keep it until it’s unusable due to age or because I threw it in anger (only happened once because everyone knows not to put me on group chats now or doesn’t talk to me at all, which are both wins), but my battery would never be able to handle operating in the car and even just being on at work without recharging, which makes wireless pointless. Then there’s Bluetooth itself and poor old Harold would surely be pissed to have such an unreliable shitty interface. I have never had a BT device either hold connection consistently and for any significant time without at least developing some kind of glitch. Even the Mid Century radio cabinet I renovated with a Yamaha BT receiver will start to make a noise like a CD with a scratch in it if used longer than an hour or so that it does not do otherwise. Is it just my bad luck/everywhere I’ve used it has too much adjacent RF interference that dozens of different pieces of hardware using BT make it appear like the most suck ass communications protocol ever overhyped or is everyone else way more tolerant of glitches and incompetence? Or a bit of both?
I agree with the benefits of phone silence, and also with the faults of bluetooth. My phone has a headphone jack that has stopped working – forcing me to use bluetooth. I don’t like it. I’ve been using it in one form or another since its introduction and although bt’s come a long way, it’s still no match for a cable most of the time.
I feel like the only time I ever restart my phone is because of a bluetooth issue.
GM didn’t do a great job with CarPlay in my 2017 Volt. Not even kidding it works about 60% of the time. The other times I have to turn off the car, open the door, and restart it to get it to work. And this isn’t even wireless CarPlay.
I used to say that CarPlay was mandatory for me when looking for a new car. However, I was recently in a rental that had CarPlay, but it was not wireless, and now I say that Wireless CarPlay is mandatory for me when looking for a new car.
1/infinity (aka zero)
You stole my thunder!
It’s not audacity, it’s abject stupidity.
I wouldn’t trust GM’s software engineers to write a PHP website that actually worked. People who are deeply incredibly stupid and ignorant think “oh, you just need Android support.” NOPE. You need 750+ different hacks, workarounds, cheats, and shims. Because there is no ‘Android.’ There are 500+ different phones, none of them are fully compatible, carriers never push software out in a reasonable fashion, and it just gets worse from there.
iPhone ain’t better, either, kiddos. Because there’s carrier bullshit, Apple bullshit, forced obsolescence bullshit, and the Apple Tax. Which goes quite literally like this: GM won’t be able to support iPhones beyond basic Bluetooth, full stop. Period.
Apple is not going to permit a CarPlay competitor. They are not obligated to grant GM the necessary licenses.
If anybody at GM was even remotely qualified to be a manager, much less run the company, they would already have figured all this out with a basic feasibility study.
David, NO. It is not. GM does not have tens of thousands of capable engineers or product planners in this area. Full stop. If they did they wouldn’t be fucking doing it. This is not a point of debate either; this is me, as an extremely experienced, very senior IT person who has many years dealing with the mobile phone space, telling you they don’t.
Because if they did, they wouldn’t be doing it. Simple as that. Any competent product planner would’ve taken one look at the words ‘replace/compete with CarPlay’ and said “lolol and you think Apple is less hostile without Steve?” They would have seen “using data Google claims they own without paying them” and laughed it right out of the office.
Good. Fuck the CEOs. “Fuck you, pay me.”
Anyone remember how many ‘record-breaking quarter’s in a row GM, Ford, and FCAtlantis are up to? They’ve had years of profiteering now and permanently entrenched it. Start cutting checks or get fucked.
And once again we’re going to just file this one under “You should REALLY listen to RootWyrm. Because he told you this was coming months ago. As usual.”
Reading tea leaves is not that hard people. I assure you. If it was, I would be terrible at it. Seriously.
And again, we’re putting this in: you REALLY need to listen to RootWyrm more.
Used car prices going down – especially that much – is not a function of supply. Period. Used car prices are going down, because demand evaporated, because the average interest rate is pushing double digit percentage for prime borrowers.
PNC, a mid-size, is charging 8.29% interest on a 15-17 at 60 months. That’s a pretty typical used car loan and completely unaffordable. A ’22-24 at 60 months is 7.09%, also completely unaffordable when any ability to absorb interest hikes has been wiped out by inflation. (Good job, you Fed fuckwits.)
This leaves dealers with a choice: eat shit or die. And they’ve chosen to eat shit. Which means sending cars they paid a premium for, to auction because they haven’t sold for months, and hoping they can at least break even. What else are they going to do, let the thing take up space and cost them money indefinitely? (It isn’t free to keep cars on the lots, folks. Insurance, bonds, floor plans, etc. all cost money.)
This doesn’t mean the bottom is going to fall out. One, that would be beyond catastrophic economically. Two, none of the powers that be would let it. They would literally halt all production just to spike used car prices before they would ever consider lowering prices.
Seriously. Name one car that has gotten cheaper – adjusted for inflation, natch – in the past 20 years. Yep, comes up a big goose egg.
The beatings will continue until morale improves. Or every penny of your paycheck goes to the robber barons. They really don’t care which.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.
1 in 1^200,000 is optimistic. Kiddos, I have seen GM’s job listings. I have seen their pay and benefits for white collar. You think they’re getting the best and brightest?
Shit no. It’s non-union, shit benefits, bottom dollar. They don’t even pay their senior software developers $130k a year. Literally the only people you’re getting at that price, are the truly desperate and the ones even body-shops like CapGemini reject.
I mean seriously. $125k/year (oh plus a whole $25k bonus if the company meets unrealistic sales numbers, not profit numbers.) Top paid software engineers, $135k. I could not possibly find a single competent soul who would even get out of bed for $125k, doubly so for a mandatory commute and 5 days in office role.
“This leaves dealers with a choice: eat shit or die.“
Can’t it be both?
In my opinion, of all automakers, General Motors has the most overall engineering firepower/capability. When GM engineers are pointed in the right direction (and that probably doesn’t happen enough, admittedly) they can produce world-beating machines. And this is coming from someone who has never owned a GM and probably never will.
The Camaro ZL1 was just madness given its price, as an example. Then C7 Corvette crushed supercars. And there are plenty of other examples. GM’s product planning maybe needs a bit more work, but engineering skill is there.
GM might have great engineers. But they are not going to be able to attract great software engineering talent because they won’t come even close to keeping up with tech compensation.
I’m in the auto industry (Tier 1) and we are desperate to suck talent out of the tech industry but comp is such a big issue. First, auto doesn’t want to pay those numbers. Second, are you going to have 2 engineers on one project team with the same # of years of experience, but the mechanical guy makes $95K and the software guy makes $180K? Now your mechanical guy is checked out.
I have to agree. GM does make great vehicles. And their engineers for that are great, but on the software side, they don’t have enough. That goes for most other manufacturers as well. Overall, using Android Auto or Carplay is much easier on everyone, but they are very resistant to it.
Oh yeah, I’ve had them come fishing more than a few times. SREs with large scale systems plus happen to be actual car guy instead of ‘I throw money at cars’ guy? Unicorns to put it mildly. Ones with cloud plus datacenter who actually understand the full problem domain and large corporate bureaucracy?
Ha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahaha. I’ll let you know if I ever meet another.
It’s even more hilarious when they ask for actual programming chops, either embedded or systems. Like, seriously? You think you’re going to get a 20-something that can actually write C, or someone with 10 years of C without buffer overflows and double-frees for the salary of that 20-something?
But hey, it’s not like GM can afford to double salaries across the board. Their revenues were only up 23% and their profits were only over $10B last year.
David, hardware and automotive engineering, engine controller engineering, and embedded systems with UX engineering? Wildly different disciplines, and the crossover is next to nil. GM knows nothing about this sort of software engineering. They have no experience. They have no teams. And that’s just a statement of fact – they outsource their infotainment. (Everyone does to varying degrees.)
What GM would need to actually have any hope of even making something half capable, is a large team of embedded UI/UX systems engineers with QNX, Android, and iOS expertise. (This, by the way, is why the prior HMIs are Robert Bosch OE’d units and why QNX. Least ramp-up for systems controller integration.)
The problem is there are very few of these people. And nearly all of them can be found at – you guessed it – shops like Robert Bosch, Renesas, and QNX. And they are not cheap. $85k gets you a guy who can make a buggy Wordle clone for iPhone. $135k gets you a guy who can make a good Wordle clone. You want a Wordle clone with voice input on a niche architecture?
You’re talking $125k before benefits for a junior level. Across 3 brands assuming a unified HMI architecture and off-the-shelf QNX, but with a complete home-grown navigation system and a complete home-grown BT A2DP system with artist information integration (so we’re quite literally talking no more capable than MyGIG to give you a better frame of reference) takes a LOT.
And not just people. It’s going to take a lot of people, make no mistake. Probably 100+. But moreover, it’s going to take years for those teams to develop the critical institutional knowledge required to work effectively on embedded systems in an automotive CANbus context, much less GM’s bureaucracy. Unless you’re coming direct from Robert Bosch (which would violate non-competes but fuck those.)
And if you do, hi, would you also like a huge raise that also comes with being able to work fully remote? Because seriously. $135k for a senior engineer with 15+ years of experience? That’s just… seriously?!
And that’s just to spin up something equivalent to a 2008 Chrysler.
Hell, even within GM themselves, switching over to BrightDrop doubles your salary. “Senior AI/ML Scientist” at $130k top end, excuse me while I choke on my coffee. “SRE III” at $125k requiring 5+ years as a senior with RCA, PM, automation, and DB design, with mandatory in-office and only 9 holidays, you can’t be serious. Are they even serious or are they just H1B fishing?
Then they’re talking hosted applications (e.g. subscriptions.) Which means systems engineers, SREs, and DevOps. Which is the space I live in primarily. Systems engineers with specialized experience and a lot of it are a mandatory requirement, unless you want warranty costs through the stratosphere due to bricking. SRE and DevOps is the same deal; you must have top notch people with a lot of large-scale experience. Including now impossible to find data center operations experience unless you’re just gonna throw everything up in AWS and leave owners high and dry every time us-east-1 has another seizure. Nevermind the costs of developing and sticking to a coherent technology stack without benefit of greenfield.
That means unicorns, which is not a good thing. It means we’re expensive, we’re hard to find, our demands are pretty much ‘take it or you’ll see what happens,’ and you need to keep us happy. (I cannot possibly overstate the importance of institutional/tribal knowledge.) Out of every single one I’ve ever so much as met, I could not put you in touch with a single one willing to do mandatory in-office. Doubly so mandatory in-office in an open layout cubefarm.
And out of all of them?
Including myself, three with QNX or RTOS experience. Two with wireless/low-reliable OTA. Only one QNX/RTOS, wireless/low-reliable, and hyperscale (50,000+ endpoint.) Yeah. Hi.
Worse, GM’s technology stack is an absolutely incoherent mess. It’s a century of stapling shit together and “reliability” through momentum. You’ve got Oracle, NoSQL, PostgreSQL, MSSQL, Salesforce-as-a-DB (everyone does that,) and Progress. I don’t even want to think about the fact that they have a mix of Azure, AWS, GCE, on-premise, VMware, and Windows.
And oh gods, then there’s the security issues… man.
But wasn’t the C8 Vette delayed 12-18m because the frame couldn’t handle the original load resulting in it twisting & bending? Had to be re-engineered to strengthen the frame? Guess they were not pointed in the right direction LOL
Last week I was riding my bike by a Nissan dealership and saw a new Z in the showroom.
I stopped to look at it, given that I’ve only seen exactly ONE on the road, ever, even though it’s been out for over a year.
The sticker had a $10,000 “market adjustment fee”. I asked (laughing) a sales guy if that’s the reason I haven’t seen any on the road, and he tells me they just lowered the mark-up from $20,000 because they’ve had it FOR A YEAR and haven’t sold it.
I was still laughing long after I left.
I’ll admit that I have never used Android Auto (It didn’t exist when I bought my current car, and whenever I drove rentals that had it I was in too much of a hurry to get where I was going to fiddle with pairing it), but it can’t be any worse than the OEM systems. The system in my current 2014 car felt dated when it was new, and seems to have gotten slower over the years (either that or I have gotten more impatient). Entering an address into the navigation is a slog, and searching by name isn’t much better.
It strikes of hubris that car companies think that they can develop software better than software companies can. I guess they can hire a bunch of hotshot software developers (It’s a buyer’s market right now with all the recent tech layoffs), but when there already exist systems that people like, why not just use those?
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The handshake snub is stupid and performative. Anyone who watches their negotiator refuse to shake his counterpart’s hand and thinks that gesture means anything is a fool.
Now I kind of want to go on a reality show to make friends. Every time they interview me, I’ll say something like: “Oh, I don’t care about the competition; I’m just here to make friends!”
The Great British Bake Off
Android Auto is irrelevant here, though. GM isn’t going to be using it.
A native Android head unit is so superior to Android Auto, it doesn’t even merit comparison.
Google’s policy for supporting Android in its Pixel line of phones is three years. What is or will be Google’s policy for supporting Android Auto? I ask because the average age of automobiles in the US is 12.5 years, and I doubt that will decrease anytime soon.
Like Apple or not, the company offers support and software updates for its iOS devices for long time.
My 2017 Volt has no issue with Android Auto. The app on the phone is the part that updates, the firmware hasn’t done an update in a while. But it is having no issue.
Google’s policy for supporting Android Auto is “we don’t. It’s dead.”
Because it is. Android Auto was killed in 2021 and fully terminated in 2022, “replaced” by the vastly inferior ‘Driving Mode’ in the Google Assistant (for maximum hoovering of PII.)
The SDK’s official support is “there is none.” There is absolutely no formal guarantee whatsoever. There is a new SDK available only to ‘selected’ ‘partners’ in use since late 2020, which is not guaranteed to be backward or forward compatible.
If your phone stops talking with your car via the SDK? Google policy is “not our problem, take it up with your car.” If that happens because they update the SDK? “Not our problem, take it up with your car.”
Will that happen? Absolutely; they want everyone on Android Automotive, which is not Android Auto. Android Automotive is AAOS but for dashboards. What is the guaranteed support lifespan for AAOS? Support starts on “fuck” and ends on “you,” because it’s the car manufacturer’s responsibility.
Your rants are really harshing any small desire I had for a new(er) ride. Or a cell phone. Or even a microwave. Thank you. I’ll be sticking with the devils I know.
They’re also making me wish I had more enthusiasm or at least comprehension of whatever the hell it is you do.
I’d be game for in-car subscriptions for features, but only if they give me the car for free. The idea of paying for a vehicle that is vastly overpriced to begin with, and then be chained to paying monthly subscriptions? Nope. Not happening. I’ll drive my 2018 with no subscription-connected features (but with apple car play) until it explodes.