Welcome back! Today we’re going to look at a couple of tall wagon/crossoverish things, both with manual transmissions. Each of them has, not a red flag, but certainly a yellow one. Maybe even a little bit orange. Which one is more worth the risk? We’ll see.
Yesterday, we looked at Gossin Motors Backyard Auto Rescue’s latest offering, and a rando Cadillac from some dealership here in beautiful southeast Portland. And somehow – the Cadillac won, by a lot, which tells me one thing: Most of you have never had dealings with the typical used car lots in southeast Portland. Most of them make Crazy Vaclav look honest. That Caddy might be fine, but it might also be a shitshow waiting to happen. I’ve had deals with those guys go both ways over the years.
Needless to say, my vote goes for Stephen’s Chrysler. Based on their own merits, without taking their origins into consideration, I think I’d still pick the Chrysler, mainly because I never want to work on another transverse V8 again – unless someone gave me a Ferrari 308. Then, and only then, would I make an exception.
Now then: Honda and Toyota are known for reliability and durability. Everyone knows that. Buy one of their cars, and you can usually not have to worry too much. But that doesn’t mean you should ignore some obvious concerns when looking at them. “Caveat emptor” applies just as much to cars with good reputations as it does to cars with bad ones. One of these cars has a potential problem with the car itself; the other has a past that might require some explanation. Let’s check them out.
2001 Honda CR-V – $2,999
Engine/drivetrain: 2.0 liter dual overhead cam inline 4, five-speed manual, FWD
Location: Fresno, CA
Odometer reading: 234,000 miles
Operational status: Runs and drives great
The Honda CR-V has been around for a long time now. It’s in its sixth generation, and like most cars, has gotten bigger. Not much; only about seven inches in length and three in width, but it feels like more, when you look at this first-generation CR-V. The new one is heavy, and it looks like it, with a high beltline and armored-car-sized windows. This car looks almost spindly by comparison.
This CR-V also has a feature no longer available on the new ones: a manual transmission. Actually, two; I don’t think that snazzy diagonal-striped upholstery is available anymore either. The manual gearbox in this one drives the front wheels only; the CR-V often had all-wheel-drive, but not this one. Power comes from a 2.0 liter four, which was plenty for its day. It runs and drives very well, according to the seller, even at well over 200,000 miles.
Now, about that seller: It’s a towing company. It’s being sold with lien papers in lieu of a title. It looks like they cleaned it up quite a bit – that’s a “Before” photo above, as far as I can tell, and the first photo is the “After” – but how did it come to be in their possession? If it runs as well as they say, how did it end up in a situation where it got towed? I’m sure it’s on the up-and-up if the DMV issued lien papers, but knowing the story would make me feel a lot better.
The other trouble with a lien sale is that there is absolutely no history to go along with it. The past twenty-three years and 234,000 miles are a complete mystery. Plan to go over every inch of this car.
2003 Toyota Matrix – $3,150
Engine/drivetrain: 1.8 liter dual overhead cam inline 4, five-speed manual, FWD
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Odometer reading: 177,000 miles
Operational status: Runs and drives well, but has “valvetrain noise”
This car isn’t quite comparable to the Honda. The Toyota Matrix wasn’t really a crossover, though it’s pretty tall and was available with all-wheel-drive. It’s basically just a Corolla wagon, and in fact, its official name is the Corolla Matrix. But then, what’s a crossover but a station wagon in platform shoes?
This is a base-model Matrix, powered by the less-powerful of two 1.8 liter twin-cam engines. It’s equipped with a five-speed stick, and is therefore only front-wheel-drive; if you wanted AWD in a Matrix, you had to settle for an automatic, and also make do with a little less horsepower. This one runs well, but it makes what the seller describes as “valvetrain noise.” From what I gather with a little research, these are noisy engines anyway; they have chain-driven cams, and the chains get rattly. That could be what they’re hearing. The chain guides wear, and the chain slaps, causing the rattle. It sounds like the chains rarely break, but the noise could get annoying really fast.
Apart from that, it’s in good shape. There’s no rust or damage outside, and it looks clean and intact inside. It does have mismatched wheel covers on the left and right sides, and I don’t know which style is correct. For me, it wouldn’t matter; I’d just chuck all four of them in the trash and go with plain black steelies. But used car lots don’t like uncovered wheels, so they stuck whatever they had on hand on there, and hoped someone like me wouldn’t notice the left and right sides are different.
As much as the tow lien situation with the Honda gives me pause, I don’t have a whole lot more confidence in a typical used car dealer. And I wouldn’t expect to get much in maintenance history with this one either. But at least they’re being upfront about the engine noise.
Little wagony-crossovery things like this are really useful cars. They’re small enough to maneuver easily but have plenty of room inside for chores or adventures. They aren’t sporty, nor do they handle particularly sharply, but with manual gearboxes, they’ll at least be a little more engaging to drive. One has a completely unknown past, and the other might require some significant repairs in the future. Which gamble are you more willing to take?
(Image credits: Craigslist sellers)
To me it’s a tossup between the two. I voted for the CRV.
I’ll take the Matrix and the red pill. I’d check out that timing chain but it sounds like it’s probably not an issue.
Both of these are a little too much for what you get but I definitely don’t want to deal with a tow yard lien and the ensuing trips to the DMV to clear it so Matrix it is.
I like the Matrix just slightly more, neither is my first choice, but a college roommate had a Matrix that also rattled like hell, and I put a timing chain tensioner in it (accessible from outside the timing cover) and it was so much quieter, I’d gamble on that again.
CR-V all the way. I had an ’04 and those things are tanks. Not worried about it being 2wd, the AWD on those things was almost more of a hindrance than a help.
Plus Maine makes it pretty easy to title older vehicles.
Did they survive the rust demon in Maine? I remember that the unibodies on these were rotting out in Eastern Canada and Honda was buying them back – but only in Eastern Canada which pissed off everyone with rusty CRVs in the rest of the country.
Our ’04 made it 11 years and 140k miles in Massachusetts with no rust issues. Then I drove it to Montana and crashed it into a cow.
Despite the unknown timing belt, I went CR-V for a couple reasons – Honda manuals are typically better and as I recall there was some issue with the manual gearbox in the Corolla and its counterparts of the day that can cause it to disintegrate (a bearing?). But the more I looked and thought, I should have gone Matrix because of the unknowns with the Honda. Without a pic of the back it’s tough to confirm if it has the “real-time 4WD sticker” but either way, Honda didn’t build FWD/MT CR-Vs by the end of this gen, most CR-Vs were AWD except for a base auto-only LX. Likely just a mismarked ad, but another one of those little things that detract from it.
“its official name is the Corolla Matrix.” It is? I looked at all of the sales info over 10 model years and did not see that. Is that a Canada thing?
https://www.auto-brochures.com/toyota.html
I’m reasonably confident that’s a Japan thing – i.e. these were called the Corolla Matrix in it’s homeland.
The Matrix was primarily a North American product, but ironically the version that did get exported to Japanese Toyota showrooms was…the Pontiac Vibe, as the Toyota Voltz.
They didn’t label it as such in consumer facing materials or advertising, but internally it was often referred to as the Corolla Matrix, which allowed them to roll the sales figures together with the sedan as a single model. Here’s a gallery on the Toyota pressroom site of images named Corolla Matrix, and the citation for it on Wikipedia has an archived link of the 2003 owner’s manual, where you can see the footer has “Corolla Matrix.” Camry Solara was the same way, this archived page also from the press site has model chronology with both models referenced with the originating model’s name.
Shitboxes notwithstanding, what’s up with the site today? Are youse being DDOS’d? Is Torch running protein folding calculations on the server to figure out what’s up with his hair? Shit’s sloooooow.
Shitbox showdown idea: vote on the best/funniest ad for a used car. I’d put my dealer friend at 636cars.com up against anybody for entertainment value.
I would go CR-V all day if it weren’t for the title issue. If I’m buying a beater, I want the minimal hassle possible in the buying process.
I worked at CarMax back in college (9 years ago), and one of my work buddies grabbed a 5-speed CR-V just like this one out of wholesale for under $2k out the door to use as his winter beater. I bought a 5-speed 99 Forester about a month later out of wholesale for around the same price. There is something so charming about owning one of these late 90’s/early 00’s Japanese crossovers with a manual transmission. They’re just so basic and fun in their own, slow way.
I really miss that 99 Forester, and moreso miss that first dibs access to dirt-cheap auction-bound cars!
My used car dealer friend sells a lot of old Hondas and Toyotas. He always goes through them and makes sure timing belts etc are squared away, and charges accordingly. Uneducated people complain to which he replies “if you want a decent Honda, bring your Honda money”. This Honda is for people not willing to spend “Honda money” and they’ll just pay later.
my daughter put 300K + kms (~180K + miles) on an AWD Matrix. It lasted well past that but, by some quirk, Matrix odometers only spun to 300K. Most of our Canadian Matrixs (Matrices?) ran around with those pegged-out odometers. Strange quirk – but very reliable and rust-resistant cars.
Even the early 2nd-gen Priuses’ odometers only went to 299,999, and they were digital!
Much like the 2nd gen Toyota Avalon calendar function that only had 20 years programmed in, 1999-2018, so starting in 2019 you had to find a similar year to set to at least match the month/date.
There is something oddly satisfying about a car routinely outliving the functional programming for the calendar… Gotta love Toyotas!
Nope nope nope. Both are cursed by A) missing title or B) time-bomb valvetrain.
Plenty of great Hondas and Toyotas out there without either of these issues.
Lol what’s going on in the background of that top shot of the CRV??
I’m going to buy a used car from someone whose solution to every home maintenance need is to throw a tarp over it?
Ha! I nearly spit coffee all over the keyboard. Yeah, first thing I noticed too. Thanks for the laugh.
These were both $3k cars 15 years ago. This is nuts.
Yeah, but the dollar is worth less, so they’ve actually gotten cheaper!
I voted Matrix. Setting aside the title issue (which would scare me away), the Matrix is bascially just a Pontiac Vibe, and the Vibe is famously durable. That little car has another 100,000 miles in it, easy.
Title vs No Title is a pretty easy choice. Throw in a cleaner interior and lower miles and it’s even easier.
Oops, I missed that before voting for the Honda. No title = parts car.
I’ve bought a lien-sale car in California and it’s a non-issue. Take the paperwork to the DMV, pay the fees, get a new title, exactly as if you had a signed title from the previous owner. I would just want to know how it got where it is.
Much as I love the early CR-V, the mileage and title situation makes me opt for the Matrix, which I like less well but feel sure will run forever, especially if you check out and remediate the noise.
My newer Corolla, with fewer miles, is a noisy little box, but continues to serve as transport. So a noisy, slightly larger box seems a better choice.
Also, Santa Cruz is a nicer place to visit than Fresno.
(K-car variant shown)
“Needless to say, my vote goes for Stephen’s Chrysler.”
Of course it does Mark, of course it does….heh.
Gimme Pontiac for the block, John.
In my experience, rattles are most commonly associated with two things, snakes and babies, both of which can take all the fun out of life. Don’t need a car that might do the same. Taking the CR-V with a hidden history.
The Matrix has a title, while the CR-V doesn’t. Also, a timing chain is better than a timing belt.
Most Honda dealers refuse to sell the FWD models and pretend they don’t exist because they only want to sell AWD.
You guys should do a shitbox showdown from Galpin’s low-priced used inventory or those recent trade-ins 😛
That’s more how Honda builds and ships them though, as far as the model mix with AWD, dealers don’t really get any more kickback from selling AWD vs. FWD. CR-V lineups were pretty heavily tilted toward AWD models in those first couple generations until the ’05 facelift; nowadays there’s such a demand for AWD (however needed or not) that inventory in northern regions especially is more AWD-heavy.
They’re probably both fine. The Honda probably got towed for tickets or being illegally parked, and easily racked up too many fees for the owned to bother getting it of out of hock.
I have the same engine in my ’99 Corolla. It is a little noisy. Especially when it’s cold.
I picked the Honda … just because.
My wife had a Corolla around this vintage, in the 13yrs she drove it the only “repair” I had to perform under the hood was the windshield washer reservoir. Everything else just ran and ran and ran.
I have a ’99 Corolla as a daily beater. The top of my washer reservoir rotted out, so I just flex taped over the hole.
Oh I went all out and actually replaced it! I’m still trying to figure out how a plastic container full of liquid dry rots but that’s what it did.
Turns out they all do that. I tried to get one from a junkyard, and they all looked as bad as mine or worse. I guess they used some really crappy plastic or something. Oh well, it’s an awesome little car all around!
I chose the Honda as “neither” is not a choice. Seeing these are need car now choices, I would get the Honda then ditch it once I had an opportunity to get a better option.
Yoda for the win!