I’ve never taken my car to a dealership, and the only time I even go to a mechanic is to get a wheel alignment or to have tires installed (since these require precision machines — yes, the tape-measure method for tire alignment works, too, but it ain’t precise). I do everything else myself. As a result, when people ask me for shop recommendations, I cannot help them, and when they ask me if something is a “fair price,” I once again have little to offer. In my world, vehicle service prices come from the junkyard, car-parts store, or Rockauto.com, and not from a service manager. So when my friend told me she was at the Lexus dealership, and I asked her to show me the service-quote, what I saw made me immediately respond: “Forget that! I’ll do it! Just let me fix your car!” It took a little convincing, but I did some wrenching yesterday on a 2017 Lexus RX350, and it was actually a pleasant experience.
I know, I know. A Lexus RX350; it’s not an enthusiast’s car, sure, but after driving it I’ve come to appreciate it solely because of its “performance of intended function.” The car is nice inside, it rides well, it’s reliable, and it’s actually quicker than you think. My friend loves her car, and I bet most other RX350 owners do, too, so I have to appreciate Lexus’s ability to nail the “comfortable, sensible, no-bullshit luxury SUV” formula. Anyway, this isn’t about the car, really, it’s about the situation. Let’s talk about the service quote:
That’s $563.58 for the front brakes and $557.20 for the rears. Together that’s $1,120.78 plus tax, so about $1,200 all-in. For a brake job!
I’m not the only one who’s a bit sour about this whole thing. Multiple Autopian writers have been feeling the pain of brake jobs recently. Here are some receipts from Matt Hardigree, who opted for the warranty so he won’t have to pay for this all again:
That’s $1,100 after tax with a brake flush, so about $450 an axle (plux tax) including the warranties you see above. That’s cheaper than my friend’s $560-ish quote, which really seems to be about the standard. Here’s a quote from the Bishop, who also recently got taken to the cleaners by bad brakes:
And here’s Mercedes’ wife Sheryl, who had both axles done on her rusty-but-trusty BMW 5 Series wagon:
Also $567 per axle!
Anyway, I couldn’t let my friend pay more than a Postal Jeep to replace four pads and two discs. Just out of principle. So I bought some of Advance Auto Parts’ best pads and discs for a total of about $380. Add in brake caliper grease and blue thread sealant (which I like to use on the brake bracket bolts), and we’re basically in $400 in parts.
Then I got to wrenching. The front discs, which are all I’ve done so far, were a joy to do. I have to hand it to Toyota for including a threaded hole in the brake disc “hat.” This allows you to thread in a bolt and us it to press the discs off. This is a big deal for me, as I recently had to WHALE on some Jeep discs to get them off, ruining them in the process.
Look at this cleverness:
The pads include a pair of springs, which I assume are there to keep them pressed up against the calipers. I’d never seen these before:
The calipers were dual-piston units; since I only have a C-Clamp and no special caliper tool, to press the pistons back in I just shoved an old pad against both pistons and cranked down on the clamp. It was all so easy, especially since this vehicle has been in California its whole life. The bolts threaded out like butter! I haven’t used my MAPP gas torch in months!
Honestly, the job was a joy! It took me probably three hours to do the front right, since I took my time and researched all the torque specs, and was very careful. The front left took me only one hour, roughly.
The rears include an electric park brake, so that requires a little bit of wizardry for the electric motor to all the piston to retract. I’ll finish that off soon:
My friend wasn’t thrilled that I came in with so much grime on my hands on behind my fingernails. I have to admit: This is the first time this has ever been a problem. For basically a decade, grimy hands have been nothing but respectable among my peers. A sign that I’d been wrenching hard. But now I have to figure out how to clean them? Please advise.
Anyway, I saved her $400 so far for something I enjoy doing anyway, and another $400 in savings will be had tomorrow. Absolutely worthwhile for what I anticipate will be about a total of six or seven hours of work. Of course, if this were michigan, that might be 12-13 hours of work, mostly breaking bolts, drilling them out, re-threading them — and don’t forget the requisite 30 minutes for cursing. Those are important.
I’m doing my assistants brakes today for the very same reason. Absolutely ridiculous parts markups and labor rates.
Have you had a chance to try the Knipex out yet?
Not yet, but it’ll find use!
Once you do, I’m hoping you’ll feel the same love I do. Lol
Those savings are substantial, but please recognize that your time has value. Not to mention the money you’ve already put into tools, but we’re not going to really factor that into this. $400 in parts, plus some number of hours labor, and you have saved her some amount and donated some amount in time. Which is great! But it’s important to recognize that.
If we call your shop rate a very cheap $50/hr and you take 8 hours to do the whole job, you’re looking at $400 in labor. You’ve saved her $400 and donated $400 of labor. Of course, a shop that does these all the time would have fewer hours of labor at a higher rate. And the dealership is overpriced however you do the math.
Possibly true for you and me, if you ignore the joy you may get just from fixing something yourself.
But in DT’s case, it becomes fodder for a story, so this is both time spent helping a friend AND being productive at his job. His valuable time spent served two purposes!
Sure, he got to use it for a story, but it’s also important to recognize he has a set of skills, the proper tools, and the willingness to do the work and the research necessary for the work. He could have spent that time wrenching on something else, driving something cool, writing something else, or just relaxing.
I’m certainly not trying to say it’s not worth it, but I do feel like a lot of home wrenchers end up spending a lot of time on other people’s stuff for a few beers or whatever, and not being valued by the recipients. I think it is important to recognize that time and labor have value. Especially while we talk about potential strikes on the horizon and when we just came out of Labor Day weekend.
Good on David for doing this for someone he cares about. But the work he put in has value. The dealership was gouging, sure, but it’s a little unfair to ignore the labor cost entirely, even if he did get a story out of it.
Brake jobs are fairly easy, and definitely worth doing yourself. The money you save on your first job will more than pay for the tools you need.
So that is exactly why I do the work myself. I can get the parts and do brakes in about 3 hours. Or, I can drive to the dealership, go through all the check-in crap, then either wait there or get a lift back. Then repeat when it’s done. I spend 3 hours just having them do the work for me. So, I do it myself, save the money, show my kids that it’s OK to work with your hands and get dirty, and have some pride in fixing something myself.
Now, a transmission overhaul is another story. Even actual mechanics will pass on that half the time.
Sure, factoring in the time you waste with the dealership is also important. And, if David continues to do brake jobs on this vehicle, he’ll probably spend less time next time. But it does sound like this job took him a considerable amount of time, at least this time around.
And, yeah, doing the work yourself is fulfilling. I guess all I’m trying to say is not to completely ignore the time spent, especially when it’s someone else’s vehicle. You should respect your time enough to ask that others respect it, too. Or you end up becoming the friend who does people’s car work for nothing.
But I’m thinking about that time waste on “free” warranty work right now (charging port lock on my Niro–sounds like a bad solenoid to me, but they say it’s the actual mechanism). I took my car in for them to diagnose the problem, for which I needed to leave it overnight. Got it back and waited for them to order the part. Took it back in and left it with them. The part they ordered didn’t fix it. Pick it up and it’s more broken (the charging port door won’t close). Waiting on another part now. It’s cost me quite a bit of time, both mine and my partner’s (and gas, since I have to drive my pickup while it’s in the shop), and that time is worth something to me.
This is why I’ve started to change my own oil. I don’t love doing it, but it actually takes less time to change it myself than to drive someplace, wait for them to get to it, then drive back.
Someone who gets it, the process of dropping it off, waiting or picking it back up takes time and for some jobs that can take as much or more time than it would have to do the job yourself.
I’m sure David’s “friend” has some parts he might be interested in as compensation.
Don’t be weird.
…that he must have clean hands to be able to handle them.
You also have to look at the value of your time after taxes (and business expenses), not your gross rate. The satisfaction of having done a good job has a certain value, as well. Additionally, there’s no hassle of taking your car to the dealership, hours of waiting there, or of arranging a ride back home then back to pick up your car… and the dissatisfaction of overpaying for someone to work on your car who cares less about it than you do.
I do all the work on my Lexus RCF myself. I’ve replaced all the electronic shocks ( two were leaking), replaced all the plugs and did the 60K service. Getting ready to replace the rotors and pads now.
Never set foot in a stealership unless it’s to buy a car or for warranty repairs.
Y’all remember that David keeps referring to his girlfriend as his “friend”. Now play out the scenario about how she wants to reward him for his efforts but gets put off by his grimy hands and fingernails.
Don’t be weird.
Ain’t nothing weird about that other than David dating somebody that’s turned off by dirty fingernails.
Either he had very “accepting” partners before, or… there was no one to complain. Congrats.
Couple questions:
Did you forget about flushing the brake fluid?
Why ceramic pads for only the front and not rear as well?
Also don’t forget to bed those brakes in
No fluid flush. Fluid looks good (plus the dealership didn’t advise it). Car has 34,000 miles on it, so I’m whatever on it.
Oddly, the Carquest “Gold” series for the front and rear brakes is ceramics up front/semi-metallic in the rear… Didn’t love that, but I like to keep the brands the same. I may just nab some ceramics and say to hell with the brand since, let’s be real, the front and rears are very possibly not related in any way regardless.
The fluid flush on an unopened hydraulic system will do more harm than good. Shops will do it just to squeeze a few more bucks out of you.
It’s only worth doing if you’re into a repair that will require opening the system.
Brake fluid goes bad over time, from excessive heat and condensation build up
Again, if you’re flushing fluid on a vehicle that’s a few years old, you’re doing more harm than good.
On an older vehicle the system has likely been opened up a few more times, so I guess it would make more sense.
I still wouldn’t do it unless I was replacing a component.
BMW recommend flushing the fluid every 2 years.
Vehicles usually only visit the dealer service department during the warranty period, when most vehicles require very little repair.
If BMW doesn’t get your brake fluid money now, they never will. Again, more harm than good but if you must insist, please change your brake fluid annually.
Someone please pay David some mani/pedicure. This is the least you deserve after fixing someone brakes. You will relax on those massage beds and listen to some good gossip lol
Are you suggesting that David used his bare feet during the brake job as well?
https://i.imgur.com/YaUnHaZ.gif
Trench foot?
https://jalopnik.com/i-bought-the-worlds-most-hopeless-jeep-bringing-it-bac-1846836392
Ignore all the various orange cleaner recommendations. Joe’s hand cleaner. By FAR superior to all orange clean, smells like banana laffy taffy, and can be used without water if necessary. Just rub in and wipe off with a towel, napkin etc. Awesome for keeping in the car if you have to be pretty but might get dirty.
I spent a lot of years behind a parts counter doing retail. I’ve sold, and used, all the hand cleaners. Joe’s beats them all. And the winter formula has extra moisturizers.
Something I started using (by accident/out of expediency) post-pandemic was heavy duty hand sanitizer. The stuff I bought has 75% alcohol and it cleans my hands very well without water. Now, I don’t get to smell like oranges or banana laffy taffy but I do have a gallon of the stuff and it’s otherwise sitting around.
“My friend wasn’t thrilled that I came in with so much grime on my hands on behind my fingernails.” “Anyway, I saved her $400 so far”
Someone needs to be a little more forgiving LOL
Forgot this: those magical screw holes are likely there to allow one to screw the rotor in place in the hub. They often get left out on brake jobs because they need to be drilled out: bad weather, heat cycles and time combine to make these Philips head screws really, really hard ro remove, leading to stripping and the aforementioned drilling.
No, many asian makes put that hole there for removal. Often there are two. These holes are threaded on the ROTOR. its not a blank pass through to a threaded hole in the hub. Threading the rotor makes no sense to bolt the rotor down.
Can confirm on my 2014 BRZ…these holes are for rotor removal.
David is the best friend someone could hope for. As Autopians we should come together to get progressively nicer cars for David to wrench on. We don’t want to change him, but give him some vacation wrenching.
Automakers are getting fed up with their dealers, consumers are fed up with buying from dealers and getting screwed, consumers are also fed up with servicing cars at dealers and getting screwed (more often as time moves on)….
…At what point does this become a “death spiral”? Luxury brands are the worst offenders from the service gouging perspective.
I don’t understand how people can afford to drive if they can’t do their own repairs and maintenance.
It’s often a case of trade-offs.
I can’t do repairs and maintenance on my own. Beyond skill level issues – and I’ve worked on farm equipment and it generally didn’t go well – I do not have the right space for it. Apartment parking with limited room (and a guy who is constantly smoking in his van next stall over), since I live near downtown. Boyfriend’s place also has a small amount of space and a very low ceiling – no really, the clearance is like 6 feet.
But in that limited space I get somewhere within walking distance to work, so I don’t have to pay for parking there and save a fairly substantial amount of money. Add to that the relatively low amount of miles I put on my vehicle, the amount of maintenance that I actually need is reduced by a huge amount.
The result is that I can afford outside maintenance because of how it has changed my vehicle usage.
The hope is that repairs or (expensive) maintenance are rare enough that when it does happen, it doesn’t break you financially. (Personally, I can manage one brake-job-sized expense every 6 months, but I haven’t needed to.) Or you buy a car with a long warranty. Or you pay off your car before the warranty ends, so that then you’ll have extra cash that can be put toward any necessary repairs in the future. Honestly there are a lot of ways to go about car ownership if you can’t or won’t do your own wrenching.
Conversely, the type of people who can and do wrench, don’t have to be so careful about what they buy, and can drive any kind of fun car that they want. (I have particular reverence for those nutcases who love classic British cars.)
The cost of time, space, tools, and training to do your own repairs vastly outweighs the cost and warranty of having it done professionally, for a lot of people.
I could, but will not, do my own brakes. I can make the extra $300-$500 the shop would cost in less than the time it would take to do the job. They’re professionals with a modicum of liability if their brake job fails AND a warranty.
I guess you’re angry. Just got my Colorado Zr2 brakes done for $650, including turned rotors while I waited. In 2.5 hours. While I waited. I’ve done the work before, but was traveling so… Actually a very cool auto repair area in San Bernardino. This guy has been there over 40 yrs.
San Bernardino Brake Supply.
Kind of the guru. 3 generations (maybe more) of mechanics there. As I write this I’m thinking good Autopian article idea. Whole street both sides all auto repair, all know each other, etc.Very multi-culti and not far from the HQ.
I think it was actually less, can’t find my receipts. Cash operations
Audi FB and Audi Reddit are rife with people posting their dealer quotes, and they are absolutely heinous. About $1,700 an axle for brakes on something like on A/S4. It’s mind boggling. And most people, not knowing any better, will just charge it to a CC and move on. If you can’t/won’t turn a wrench, a well respected independent shop specializing in vehicles from your country will save you enough to put a kid through college. Barring special cases where specific dealer tooling is needed, there is absolutely no reason to go to a dealer for regular out of warranty maintenance.
As far as dirty fingernails, as an ex aircraft mechanic I straight up don’t touch a machine without gloves on. Every chemical wants to kill you and nobody likes grimy fingernails. The thick orange grippy ones on Amazon are great, stand up to chemicals and don’t easily tear.
Are those orange gloves available again? They were unobtainium for ages and I’ve been hoarding my last few pairs.
I use Gloveworks HD nitrile and they’re available
Brake jobs are generally one of the best money saving DIY jobs.
The dealers and many garages are marking up the parts like crazy. Labour should be 1 to 1.5 hrs per axle.
Also, some of the aftermarket parts are much better quality than dealer. You also get to enjoy newer features on older vehicles such as coated rotors.
And, be like David and look up the torque specs and where to use threadlock. Some torque values are surprisingly low, especially the slide pins.
You need a fingernail brush and some Fast Orange Hand Cleaner. That should get rid of all the grime. The Fast Orange stuff has pumice in it to break up the dirt.
+1 for the nail brush. They are a wrencher’s best friend.
Pre-hand lotion before anything else the night before helps a lot. Fast Orange is great, gallon pump bottle for DT! Dawn, gojo, or Boraxo plus nail brush/old toothbrush for the hands. I’ve seen those clips on a Camry or Taurus SHO.
Lotion is good before wrenching. I also like to scratch some bar soap before working. As a bonus, you start cleanup with some soap under your nails.
latex gloves?
I was going to say a nail brush and the Gojo orange with pumice, but yes, that is one heck of a combination.
Nitrile gloves are super handy as well. I recommend not bothering with the 5mil for jobs like this: they tear pretty easily. 7mil is the sweet spot IMO.
Or there is a brand called Gorilla Gloves; I got them at Home Depot, though they may be available in other stores. The palm and gripping surfaces are rubberized but the part over the back of the hand is mesh to allow some breathing.
It’s easier to get clean when you don’t get dirty in the first place. 🙂
First of all, ❤️.
Second, I got a similar quote from the dealer on my wife’s Crosstrek for rotors/pads all the way around. I did it myself with a $300 (including shipping) Dynamic Friction kit from Rock Auto and a few hours on a Saturday afternoon.
Subaru also has the threaded holes on the rotors which make removal a snap when they are hard to get off.
The best way to clean out under your nails is to wash with a dedicated hand cleanser. Then, when that didn’t completely work, because it won’t, shower and wash your hair, making sure to vigorously scrub your scalp with your fingertips (don’t forget the thumb!). That works better for me than any product I have ever bought, including Gojo, Swarfega, etc.
Yay! Wrenching content! Just like the old days!
Thank you, NamelessFemaleFriend, for bringing back the David Tracy we’ve been missing. We appreciate your contribution to Greater Autopia.
P.S. – if the girl wants your hands clean, it’s hard to beat a good scrubbing with Lava soap. I start with Fast Orange to clean off the easy stuff, then scrub down with a bar of Lava soap to remove the harder stuff. Use a brush as needed.
And, yes, those threaded holes are amazing. All brake discs should have them.
Good old Lava is tough to beat. My dad was in the printing industry, and Lava was their go-to for ink-stained hands. (And printing ink is no joke, it’s nothing like the ink in your ballpoint pen.)
The price is in line with my recent experience. On my Sienna the rear rotors/pads and labor with in the $500+ range. I would have done it myself, but the van was in for other work and I didn’t have the time. The shop had it done in less than an hour.
Same here, the rear brake parts & labor on my Outlander were about $500 when all was said and done. The dealer had actually quoted me slightly less, but I know the price would have magically gone up by the end of that service. Plus I don’t even know who makes the OEM parts.
I think brakes are the “bread-n-butter” of any given shop. They know they will be doing them everyday. They know they are required. No one wants to screw this up. So, they charge a lot. I’d probably do the same for such easy work.
Those springs look similar in concept to Avid bicycle disc brakes to retract the pads to reduce drag. Minimizing brake is vital when you are the engine.
The key here is you enjoy it and the skills to make it happen. Since I do have the skills, paying some $1200 to do the work right lets me do other things I do like.
Brake jobs do seem to be one of the things dealers and shops mark up the most, for whatever reason (maybe because they have unquestioned importance?)
Also, you may want to consider blurring what is presumably your home address in those receipts 🙂
If it is, we should send him some hand cleaner
We should send her some. She is the fussy one. It has been well documented what David can put up with.
Those brake pad springs are a common mod on hypermilers and in the insight community; normally the rotor just sorta pushes the pads back off the rotor but can still result in some friction, the springs get rid of any extra drag. Would not be surprised if your i3 had some.