Honda kills entry-level CR-V trims, BMW will make cars out of trash, Ram kills the EcoDiesel. All this and more in today’s issue of The Morning Dump.
Welcome to The Morning Dump, bite-sized stories corralled into a single article for your morning perusal. If your morning coffee’s working a little too well, pull up a throne and have a gander at the best of the rest of yesterday.
Holy Crap, The New Honda CR-V Is Expensive
Compact crossovers are as popular as ever, and we finally know how much the latest version of a segment pioneer will cost. Honda announced pricing for the new CR-V and it seems that the Japanese company has pulled a bit of a disappearing act.
See, Honda is focusing on trims with higher margins, so the base LX and value-minded Special Edition trims have been cast aside, with the decidedly mid-range EX now positioned as the CR-V’s entry point. This takes the base price up to $32,355 including a $1,245 freight charge. That works out to $1,800 more than a 2022 CR-V EX-L, a rather significant price jump. Moving up the lineup, the EX-L trim now starts at $35,005 or $1,860 more than before. The Sport Touring trim replaces the Touring trim at the top of the CR-V pyramid with a price of $39,845, or $2,000 more than the Touring. Also new for 2023 is the Sport hybrid trim, which carries a fairly reasonable list price of $33,695.
While the old CR-V is one of America’s most popular compact crossovers, this new pricing scheme may affect sheer sales volume. There are still some entry-level versions of the outgoing CR-V running about, and axing those trims will likely send shoppers running into the arms of competitors. Still, if a CR-V with a little more luxury sounds exactly your cup of tea, the 2023 model will be rolling into showrooms later in September.
BMW Will Make Electric Cars From Trash
If you’ve been around BMWs long enough, you’re probably thinking that some of the company’s parts are already trash. While that’s definitely true when it comes to N62 valve stem seals and S65 rod bearings, BMW actually plans on making plastics using garbage from the ocean.
According to a press release, the German automakers has teamed up with Danish company PLASTIX to make new parts using maritime plastic waste. Fishing nets, ropes, that sort of stuff. Plastic pulled from the ocean gets turned into granules, which can then be used to make injection-molded parts, pretty novel stuff considering maritime waste was previously only used for fibers.
So where does BMW plan on using plastics made from old fish nets first? Well, the upcoming Neue Klasse EV platform is said to put a focus on sustainability, so expect to see these recycled plastics in an electric 3-Series-sized car come 2025.
Ram Kills The EcoDiesel
If you’re looking to buy a new diesel half-ton pickup truck, your options are dwindling. Stellantis has announced that Ram will end 1500 EcoDiesel production in January 2023, so anyone looking to buy one should get their order in now.
While the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel was certainly innovative when it burst onto the scene for 2014, it grew mired in emissions scandal and will effectively be superseded by the upcoming electric Ram pickup truck. It’s a bit sad seeing the little diesel six make an exit from the Ram lineup as electric vehicles just don’t have the energy density of diesel, leading to low towing range. For half-ton buyers looking to both tow and save money at the pumps, diesel really does have a place.
What’s more, this is the second diesel half-ton to die in recent years. Ford discontinued the diesel F-150 in 2021 in favor of its hybrid Powerboost V6 powertrain. However, if you like diesel half-tons and aren’t a brand loyalist, there is some good news. General Motors still offers a diesel engine in its Chevrolet Silverado 1500 and GMC Sierra 1500 half-ton pickup trucks.
German Court Tosses Climate Change Suit Against Mercedes
Here’s a bizarre story out of Germany. Reuters reports that the Stuttgart district court has tossed out a lawsuit that an NGO brought against Mercedes-Benz [Ed Note: A court in Stuttgart siding with Mercedes? I’m shocked! – MH] over climate change. Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH) sued Mercedes for exacerbating climate change, a bold decision for an NGO with such a poor choice of acronym.
The case had demanded that Mercedes-Benz adhere to a tighter carbon emissions budget and commit to ending production of combustion engine cars by November 2030.
The DUH said it plans to appeal the ruling in the higher regional court of Stuttgart.
“Even if this ruling did not turn out in our favour, we hope for a quick resolution in the higher court, for the climate crisis does not leave us much time,” said DUH lawyer Remo Klinger.
Associated NGOs LOL, GTFO, and ROFLCOPTER were unavailable for comment on the matter. In all seriousness, this lawsuit seems a bit absurd given incoming Euro 7 emissions regulations and a plan to phase out new combustion engines by 2035. While it’s certainly a stunt that got a lot of eyes on DUH, it doesn’t paint the NGO in a particularly flattering light.
The Flush
Whelp, time to drop the lid on today’s edition of The Morning Dump. It’s media day at the Detroit Auto Show, which means I’m probably on the show floor by the time you read this. Growing up, auto show season was always an important one for me. My dad and I would head to Toronto for the latest and greatest, from the astonishing Magic Seat system in the first-generation Honda Fit to the eye-opening Bang & Olufsen audio system on the D3 Audi A8. I’d like to know what your favorite auto show memories are. Whether you got a signed poster from a pro driver or simply marveled at your favorite new car of the moment, interactive experiences shape our enthusiasm.
Lead photo credit: Honda
The CR-V is a lot better looking that is for sure. I’m sure Honda knows what they are doing by killing the lower model. Few people want to settle for the “base” model these days. Just finance it 8 years instead of 7! Easy!
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A friend of mine is getting a 2022 CRV delivered next week. Eager to tell him how clever he is.
No one will read this, but I must reply regarding auto shows. I used to go to the Washington DC Auto show with my dad and brother from about 1990 through 1998 (til end of HS, basically.) It’s not a great show, nor particularly famous; no one debuts anything, no manufacturers try. But it’s perhaps where I began to love everything car. Now – well, covid has messed with everyone’s “now” – I get to take my boys to it. So long live the auto show.????
Regarding the Ecodiesel being discontinued… it doesn’t help that the price premium for diesel fuel has gotten much bigger in recent years… negating much of the savings from the lower fuel consumption.
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Love my 2020 Rebel Diesel.
Highway driving routinely sees 28mpg. The $4000 cdn up charge over the hemi has already paid for itself.
If they’re not making anymore I guess I’ll have to keep this one for as long as possible since I don’t ever see a future where an electric pickup will make sense on the Alaska Highway.
Seeing as how the HRV is now Civic based instead of Fit based, I was wondering what the difference would be between it and the also Civic based CRV. Seems like the answer is that the HRV is replacing the lower trims of the CRV. The price jump makes more sense to me when I look at it like that.
For about 10 seasons in the 90s and 00s, I installed lighting and video equipment at NAIAS. That meant I got to see most of the new intros before even the press did. I saw the Scion xB in January of ’03 before anyone else, and I vowed to one day own one. I bought mine used in ’13, and it was the best around town car I’ve ever owned. Too bad it was positively miserable on the highway, or I’d probably still own it.
“this new pricing scheme may affect sheer sales volume.”
Doubtful. They probably dropped the lower trims because they can still everything they can manage to build as without bothering with the low trim.
Starting in approx. 1994 a group of friends and I would go to the SF auto show every year, until Covid killed the tradition in 2020. Hope to be back this November.
We would always see how many people we could cram into a Buick, then fiddle with its headliner. Or take pictures with our heads stuck through Subaru’s ridiculously large STI wings.
Ford- “Our 1/2 ton diesel sucks. Give it the axe.”
Ram- “Same”.
GM- “We have a belt driven oil pump in ours. What could go wrong?”
Toyota- “This is why we don’t have a diesel truck.”
I went to the Portland Auto Show shortly after the new Jag F-Type dropped, tried to sit in it and had my dreams crushed as my 6’7″ self couldn’t pretzel in. Great show otherwise!
Honda isn’t going to lose any sleep over potential LX buyers switching brands. They’ll still be selling CR-Vs as fast as they can make them, so producing the LX trim just means wasting factory time on a lower margin vehicle. America is so horny for crossovers that the old strategy of selling base models to customers who will eventually come back for something more expensive is obsolete.
Great car show memories:
My then girlfriend, now wife, took me to meet her dad at the Milwaukee Auto Show. She ended up being a third wheel as he & I wandered the show and talked about all the new stuff on display. It was a great afternoon.
3rd Gen CRV LX owner here. I can tell you that price isn’t keeping me out of the new CRVs, it’s three little letters: CVT. As far as pricing, I’d get a Hyundai Tucson instead, way better interior and tech than Honda offers. Finally, why does the new CRV look like a badge engineered Tiguan? Or is it just me?
I prefer the posts about the souls of dead Methodist ministers you can use to freak the shit out of your children to keep them off or on drugs.
When I was younger and didn’t realize these are all bots, I used to reply to porn spam messages by going into crazy hellfire street preacher mode.
“This takes the base price up to $32,355 including a $1,245 freight charge. That works out to $1,800 more than a 2022 CR-V EX-L, a rather significant price jump.” … “While the old CR-V is one of America’s most popular compact crossovers, this new pricing scheme may affect sheer sales volume.”
Nope. Not going to do a damn thing. The average sale price of a new car in the US is over $41,000 and climbing rapidly. Thousands every year. So you’re still well below average. Second, their major competitor in this space is Toyota’s Rav4 which HA HA HA. Even if you could find one, Toyota’s dealer network is hellbent on making Kia’s look good. You could not fucking pay me to walk into any local Toyota dealer, because they absolutely will steal your keys and charge you a $1599 sale preparation fee to return them. Their markup shenanigans are that absolutely brazen and disgusting.
Which means they’re pushing sales into the Hyundai Tuscon/Kia Santa Fe. Owning a Kia is still ‘ew, you’re poor’ to an extent, but a Hyundai has long shed that image. Maybe a Chevy Equinox, but if you’re buying Honda CR-V, chances are, you’ve seen GM build quality or lack thereof already. Mitsubishi is waving their arms wildly trying to get buyers attention, but, yeah.
And thirdly, Honda has pretty much already sold every CR-V they will make this year. There isn’t a single LX available as is, only 2 tourings, 13 EX’s, 12 EX-L’s, and absolutely zero hybrids within 100 miles of me. Which covers three very high volume dealerships. Any sales lost will be made up for by margins. And right now, they’re losing far more sales to supply issues.
“If you’ve been around BMWs long enough, you’re probably thinking that some of the company’s parts are already trash. While that’s definitely true when it comes to N62 valve stem seals and S65 rod bearings, BMW actually plans on making plastics using garbage from the ocean.”
Oh look, more bullshit greenwashing. ‘Partnership’ with extremely ‘green’ company nobody has ever heard of, check. ‘Green’ company that has no actual history or other customers? Check. Website full of buzzwords and lofty ‘green’ bullshit like claiming they can recycle materials that were previously unrecyclable due to magic secret processes, check. A bunch of ‘customers’ that are similar greenwashing firms and a few trial programs listed as customers? Big check.
Plastics recycling is one of the absolute worst performers despite all the claims to the contrary. Most plastic just isn’t recyclable or is just far too expensive to recycle because it requires extensive hand sorting, separation, and huge amounts of discard because you can’t just mix ‘plastic.’ HDPE can’t be mixed with ABS, PTFE can’t go with PBT, etcetera. Otherwise you get something completely unusable.
So yeah. This is just more greenwashing bullshit. The actual output even if it actually produces anything is a trickle, so maybe you’ll get some ‘recycled’ button covers. (The majority of ‘recycled’ materials actually used will either be traditional trash-stream reduction recycling or ‘you can’t recycle this ever again now’ recycling.)
“Stellantis has announced that Ram will end 1500 EcoDiesel production in January 2023, so anyone looking to buy one should get their order in now.” … “What’s more, this is the second diesel half-ton to die in recent years. Ford discontinued the diesel F-150 in 2021 in favor of its hybrid Powerboost V6 powertrain.”
The reason this is unsurprising is the fact that diesel was always a cheat. Remember Caterpillar’s temper tantrum and whining when they were told they would have to comply with actual emissions standards in the future, their absolutely disastrous ‘implementation’ of them in the most half-assed manner possible to try and sabotage regulation, and their failed attempt at bribes and explicit threats, which ultimately lead to their permanent exit from the on-road diesel engine market? I sure do. And that’s how it’s always been. Diesels have looser emissions regulations to begin with, and have been abused to meet CAFE targets in some instances.
As those regulations tighten up and the price of diesel fuel itself has skyrocketed, investing in these engines no longer makes fiscal sense. Sure, it gets 25% better fuel mileage. But currently, the average price for ULS diesel is $5.033/gal versus $3.71/gal. I’m not a supergenius, but I’m pretty sure that 35% is is larger than 25%. And diesel prices are not coming down. They’re probably never going below $4.90/gal again. It doesn’t make sense for vehicle buyers, it doesn’t make sense for vehicle manufacturers.
This also makes the EcoDiesel the shortest lived diesel engine in history, and is going to cost FCAtlantis a shitload of money. See, the one they’re axing? Total and complete redesign in 2020. Clean sheet with all new tooling, machining, and electronics. That’s tens of millions of dollars they have effectively set fire to.
How bad is it really? GM’s disastrous 5.7L diesel was made from 1978 to 1985. So yeah. It’s that bad.
“I’d like to know what your favorite auto show memories are. Whether you got a signed poster from a pro driver or simply marveled at your favorite new car of the moment, interactive experiences shape our enthusiasm.”
Some folks might say the time they got to sit in a million dollar car or the like. But for me? It was sitting in and driving the first gen Genesis G80 copper edition. Not only was the car beyond stunning (and still is,) but it was the only stand in the whole show where the staff actually acted like they wanted to be there. Ford wasn’t interested in answering any questions, Jeep just wanted you to do the $80 ‘off-road experience,’ Audi tried to be snobbish and act like nobody attending could afford their cars, Honda was just ‘if you aren’t buying, go away,’ and GM’s entire booth staff was just standing in a circle bullshitting and ignoring attendees between NASCAR shows.
But Genesis? “Hello, hello, here’s what we have. Absolutely sit in them, adjust things, check them out, and let us know if you have any questions. If you want to test drive one, let us know, we have that set up out back.” And that was the first year where you really saw what the Koreans could do. If you’ve never seen a G80 copper, go find some good pictures. They are beyond stunning cars inside and out. On anything else, you’d label quilted leather as the bullshit it is. But in the G80, side by side with non-quilted, you actually felt the real difference.
And it was by far and away the most positive experience I’ve ever had at any auto show. When I asked to take a look at the engine? They didn’t hesitate to pop the hood. What options are available? “Here’s the glossy catalog, but it’s not a hard rule, here’s how you order in a bespoke combination.” I actually was on the list to be notified the day the G70’s order books opened up.
But once again, they were sabotaged by their own dealer network. The local beyond-shady Hyundai dealership had demanded to be a Genesis dealer despite meeting none of the requirements, and I got shuffled to them. And they didn’t give two shits. I outright said ‘I absolutely will order. I am a hard commit.’ And they never even bothered to try and sell me an Elantra lease special.
Just burn your shitty dealership network to the ground and start over, Hyundai. It’s the only way you’re going to fix it. And call me when you finish that.
Sheesh, is it your job to write overly drawn out, angst filled articles? I could barely get through the first paragraph. TLDR
Honestly I look forward to root’s comments. I generally learn something new from him and enjoyix of humor and angst. I’ve been lobbying to give him a truly unhinged opinion column here on the site.
Much appreciated! I do try to at least inject some positivity while calling out obvious bullshittery. (LOOKING AT YOU, BMW. Especially since we fucking KNOW you can do better. You HAVE done better.)
I just can’t imagine why it’s so hard to find positive things these days. I mean it’s only an ongoing pandemic, massive supply chain issues, dealers reverting to behaviors that would make the salesmen of the 1960’s blush and drool at the same time, profiteering falsely claimed as inflation putting good cars and enough food to eat out of reach of more and more people… oh. Uh.
Nevermind. Think I figured out why!
But goddamn is the Genesis G80 still an absolutely stunning car.
https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/2acc5ee8558b64624b135d5da4f4acd7314dd11e/hub/2017/05/25/b6db4bfc-a212-4c86-87ad-bb4bc5e30c9a/2018genesisg80sport-009.jpg?auto=webp&width=1200
No one is forcing you to read it.
Even disagreeing with about 50% of what Root says I still find it worthwhile to read. The whole idea of this site is for people who like cars to shoot the shit about them. Seems like you would do better at the old hot-take site.
Regarding your diesel comments, diesel where I live in FL is at 4.64 so it’s already below what you stated. Also, Stellantis uses that engine in more than just the 1500 so I’m sure they’re getting at least some of their money back.
With gas prices, I always quote national average – it’s the least biased number available. Prices are too variable even from block to block. Otherwise it’d be $5.09 vs. $3.58.
And no, when they went to the new design, it was dropped from everything except the Ram 1500, Jeep Wrangler, and Jeep Gladiator. All of which have had poor uptake.
For Wrangler, out of 190 new 2022 and 2023 Wranglers within a 50 mile radius, only 7 diesels.
The Gladiator has been described inside and out as an unmitigated sales disaster, doing far less than half the volume of even Wrangler. It was expected to sell more than 200,000 units per year – instead it still hasn’t broken 90k, and they only sold 38,757 in the first half of 2022, down 10,027 or over 10% from 2021. Out of 79 available locally, only 3 are diesels. More than 20 have been on the lot for over 60 days.
They sell more Ram 1500’s in a quarter than the Wrangler and Gladiator do in a year. Combined.
And despite this, out of 475 (no, seriously) Ram 1500’s within 50 miles of me, only 14 are diesels.
The new one also very stupidly kept the branding of an engine that has a horrific reputation among owners of the VM Motori. Which is downright notorious for major failures and leaks that leave it in the shop for weeks at a time or just outright kill it. Which has obviously had a huge negative impact on sales.
Customers don’t know that it’s an all new engine from 2020 onward, they only know that they google “Ram EcoDiesel” and get 4+ pages of ‘OMG IN THE SHOP AGAIN,’ ‘BROKEN AGAIN,’ ‘Here’s how unreliable it is,’ ‘I want a buyback,’ and so on. I’ve seen ECO backronymed to ‘EGR Cooler Out again’ and ‘EGR Cooler Out-of-stock;’ failures are that common and severe on the old one.
Great commentary and exactly why I come to this site. Keep on keepin’ on.
It would’ve been worth mentioning the base price of a 2022 CR-V LX, too. It starts at 26k.
Speaking of gouging, Honda dealers absolutely REFUSE to sell you a FWD version even though Honda makes them. They only want to sell you an AWD HRV/CRV/Pilot.
And now, the new CRV is too close to the RDX in terms of price.
Too bad Ford and Dodge dropped their half-ton diesels.
Honda doesn’t do special orders. So if a dealer won’t sell you a FWD version it’s because in THEORY Honda makes them, but in practice they aren’t actually building them or it not sending them to the region you’re in.
Always went to the Philly Auto show, and made a point to get the free Porsche poster every year. I used to have about 8 of them on my childhood bedroom walls. Also fond memories of Concept cars like the Nomad, and Jeepster.
Regarding the EcoDiesel, my father in law owned a Ram with one for a couple years. It sounds like it did pretty good in terms of power and economy, but it always seemed to have a nagging problem. One of the more prominent ones was a leaking crankshaft seal. It was out of his possession for weeks due to parts availability and the dealer blocking off enough time to do the big job (and because who cares about warranty work). I think it was not long after that, he decided to sell it. He bought a 2017(?) F150 with the 2.7 EB and has been satisfied with that since then. That has been a fair amount less needy, although it did have a pretty bad rich-running condition based on the exhaust.
Anyway, I get it, it’s hard to make cars today. Components are expensive. Labor is expensive. But they keep packing more crap into base models so they’re virtually indistinguishable from upper trims, outside of a couple gimmicky features. I understand, profits, shareholders, margin per unit…but even with idiots with evidently more money than patience, the shoe has to drop at some point. It sounds like the Fed is looking into a possible 100 basis point, 1 percent, increase in the Federal interest rate. That makes a difference and means these already expensive vehicles will be even further out of reach for an increasingly larger segment of the population.
Also, BMW making cars out of trash practically writes itself. I appreciate the intention of implementing sustainable materials in auto manufacturing, but this smacks of The Emperor’s New Clothes, at least as far as the rich is concerned…which I guess is appropriate.
I used to take the train to NYC for the auto show for no other reason than to just look at the nice, shiny new cars. I also went to the show in Chicago once and was mesmerized by how big it was and how many cars were there (and how cold it was in Chicago in February, I’m from the northeast, but was not prepared for the wind and cold)!
My wife drives a CRV and a company I used to work for had several of them that we’d use, so I’m quite familiar with them. They’re the most NPC of all NPC cars. They have absolutely no driving character, their styling might as well have been AI generated, and they’re just remarkably boring things. I get that not everyone is an enthusiast and the most basic of basic transportation is what probably 75% of people want/need …so I understand the role the car fills, even if I refuse to take ours on any road trips because of how sleep inducing of an experience it is.
That being said, they now want friggin 32 grand for a base one? That seems steep to me. The best way to buy this car is to buy a barebones one, and Honda really seems particularly adept and squeezing every single penny they can out of their customers (to be fair most manufacturers are). I imagine that the usual buyer of one of these is pretty firmly middle class, and that seems like a needlessly high point of entry for such a basic car. Are they going to go full Nissan and offer 6-10 year loans on them for sub prime borrowers as well?
Then, a fully loaded one comes in at nearly 40k? That’s an even worse value. Even if you ignore enthusiast cars there are much more compelling options at that price. Don’t get me wrong, they’ll still sell a gajillion of these things to middle/upper middle class suburbanites and Bob from HR….but this seems like a needless cash grab from a company that has developed quite the zest for needless cash grabs.
FWIW, a RAV 4 and a CX5 start around 28, a Tuscan starts around 26, and a Sportage starts 27. You can get into a decent mid tier trim of any for around where the CRV is going to start, and I think all of those cars are more compelling for a variety of reasons…Mazda for the better drive, the Koreans for more interesting style/a better warranty, and the RAV 4 solely because it’s a really good looking car. I honestly think Honda will lose some market share with the price hikes…but I’m not sure if it’ll have a huge effect, as the CRV is like the 911 of NPC cars. It’s an institution at this point.
Holy sportsballs, you can get a new TVR Tuscan for just 26k? Where do I sign up?
Shoot, I remember when the previous gen or two, you could get an LX AWD for about $23-24K. They had all the features you’d ever really want…MAYBE one or two convenience features that would’ve been nice, but worth passing on for the price.
While the CRV technically meets every requirement I have, I am avoiding them like the plague for this very reason. It is one of few cars that invokes absolutely zero emotion out of me. The only redeeming feature is the folding table in the first gen.
I had a CRV as a rental a few months ago, and I honestly can say I recall nothing at all about it. So yeah, NPC AF.
“For half-ton buyers looking to both tow and save money at the pumps, diesel really does have a place.”
Not necessarily true. Diesel is about $1.75-$2/gal pricier than regular gas locally. Comparing 4×4 trims, the Hemi gets 19 combined vs 24 for the diesel. Plugging in $3.75 and $5.50 per gallon, plus 12,000 miles per year, you get a fuel cost of $2750 for diesel, and $2368 for gas.
The tow rating is also lower on the diesel.
Unless you have to tow a metric f**k ton diesel doesn’t really have a place for regular drivers in the American market. It is what it is…I understand why enthusiasts gravitate towards diesels and even daily’d a diesel E320 for a few years, but for probably 98% of regular drivers there really isn’t a benefit right now.
The fuel economy gains are offset by the higher prices of diesel, the engines require more specialized maintenance even if they’ll run forever, and diesel is more scarce than regular gas.
My usual go to is that diesel makes a lot of sense for 1 ton trucks and above, and very little for anything smaller. Even that is more dubious than in years past with a new generation of gas engines (Ford 7.3, GM 6.6) that are seeing increased use in medium duty 450-750 class trucks by operators drawn to lower operating costs.
Diesel made a lot more sense when it had price parity with gas, when there really was a significant difference in capability and engine lifespan, and when maintenance costs weren’t crippling.
Yeah I’m assuming the ridiculous price of diesel is a big factor in these being cancelled. Can only speak to Canadian dollars – and it’s first thing in the morning so I’m not doing math – but it’s a good $0.50/litre more around here. Add to that the higher cost of entry and the diesel’s cost advantages basically don’t exist.
It’s already less popular but now dealers have nothing to work with to sell someone on one.
I drive one of the F150 3.0L diesels and get amazing mileage. Well enough to offset the cost difference in fuel. I am getting about 26-28 MPG empty (real world driving, not EPA tests) and I am getting 14-16 towing a 5k lb trailer.
Comparing that to my old GM 5.3 V8 (3rd gen), I was getting 16-17 empty and 6-9 towing the same trailer.
The price difference here in FL is only $1.30 as well for gas vs. diesel. My calculations for what I drive show me saving over $1k a year.
Does that include the cost of DEF?
The Honda price jump is justified because they want more money.