The Dodge Charger and Challenger we know and love will be leaving production in 2023, but I don’t think we should be sad. The cars have laid rubber all across the U.S. for over 15 years, and if we’re lucky, they’ll be replaced by something like this: The Dodge Charger Daytona SRT Concept, a beautiful all-electric muscle car that “offers a glimpse at the brand’s electric future through a vehicle that drives like a Dodge, looks like a Dodge and sounds like Dodge.” The thing offers some seriously unconventional features for an EV. Here’s what we know so far.
Dodge is in a bit of a pickle. The brand has built its name, in part, on raucously loud, powerful internal combustion engines, and now has to pivot to electric propulsion like the rest of the industry. Many of the brand’s customers are EV skeptics, believing that the only proper engine for a motor car is the V8. I don’t fault them for this; V8s are great. (And, to be fair, many people outside of Dodge’s customer base are are EV skeptics). But getting those skeptics onboard with Dodge’s new EV direction is going to be tricky, and it seems Dodge’s strategy is to acknowledge those customers’ skepticism, commiserate a bit, and then use that commiseration to build trust that gets customers to buy into electrification. At least, that’s what the strategy looks like to me based on this quote from Dodge’s CEO Tim Kuniskis, who showed off the new Daytona concept at the company’s annual drag race-filled event on Detroit’s fabled Woodward Avenue:
“We didn’t ask for the rules to change. We didn’t want them to change, but they did. And we can try to outrun them, but that would be a nine second pass straight into extinction. Or we can do what we did: read their rules. Study their rules. Find their gray areas, then unleash the Banshee. Trust me, this is not the EV they want you to have. This is the way Dodge does EVs.
Dodge also seems to be trying to keep some of the elements that fans of ICEs like, such as engine noise. In fact, the Daytona SRT Concept comes with an “exhaust” system as loud as that of the Hellcat Charger, which is kind of hilarious. Dodge calls it the “Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust,” referencing the Fratzog Dodge logo. From Dodge’s press release:
While most BEVs embrace their virtually silent electric motors, that just wouldn’t do for Dodge. The Charger Daytona SRT Concept voices a 126 dB roar that equals the SRT Hellcat, generated through a new, patent-pending Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust system. Yes, Dodge added an exhaust to an electric vehicle.
The industry-first Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust pushes its one-of-a-kind performance sound through an amplifier and tuning chamber located at the rear of the vehicle. The Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust represents the next generation of tactile, bone-shaking, muscle attitude, creating a visceral “Dark Matter” sound profile experience in concert with the eRupt transmission.
So Dodge has built some sort of acoustic chamber that takes the electric motor’s natural sound and massages it in just the right way before amplifying it, and presumably delivering it through speakers. Here, listen to the new Dodge Charger Dayton SRT Concept “rev” its two (presumably) electric motors that drive all four wheels:
Not only does the new concept come with an exhaust, there’s also a multi-speed transmission, which is unusual for an EV. Electric motors’ ability to produce good torque across a huge range of revs means most automakers simply bolt those motors up to a ~10:1 gear reduction, and offer no shifting at all (there are some exceptions, like the Porsche Taycan). So this is quite interesting:
Unlike typical BEVs, the Dodge brand’s eRupt multi-speed transmission with electro-mechanical shifting delivers distinctive shift points, throwing shoulders into seatbacks in true Dodge style. The Charger Daytona SRT Concept also boasts a PowerShot push-to-pass feature. Activated by the push of a button on the steering wheel, PowerShot delivers an adrenaline jolt of increased horsepower for a quick burst of acceleration.
I don’t have many more details on this; I’m curious if this is a literal transmission as we know it or a simulated one. The way that’s written makes me think this is literally a transmission with multiple gear ratios. Dodge even says that the “shifter” for this transmission even looks more conventional. I’m excited to dig into the tech as soon as I have the opportunity.
Dodge isn’t giving too many details about performance right now. The automaker says that the Daytona is riding on a 800V Banshee propulsion system. It has standard all-wheel-drive and Dodge says that it’s faster than a Hellcat in “all key performance measures.” So, we’ll have to wait to see what this can really do.
In the meantime, let’s continue to check out what Dodge has rolled out for us to see.
You can’t easily see it in the press images thus far, but Dodge has done some neat trickery with the front end. It maintains the squared-off muscle car look while also getting better aerodynamics. Dodge did it by turning what would normally be a gaping grille into a sort of wing. Dodge calls it the R-Wing.
The R-Wing functions as an homage to the original Charger Daytona design. And more than that, Dodge says that it helps with giving this new Daytona better aerodynamics and downforce. The Fratzog logo stands proud on the Daytona SRT Concept, and it’s a welcome departure from the twin stripes that we’ve been seeing for so long. That logo was previously used on Dodge muscle cars from 1962 through 1976. Dodge says that it was previously used without context, but now the Fratzog will represent both the brand’s electric future and its commitment to performance.
The interior of the concept keeps the vehicle’s functions driver-centric.
Look towards the center stack and you’ll see another nod to the past: a pistol-grip shifter. As expected with today’s vehicles, there are huge screens with a 16-inch curved instrument cluster, a 12.3-inch infotainment screen, and an 8-by-3-inch HUD. The interior also sports a glass roof and instead of a typical trunk lid, there’s a liftback.
Some of this may sound silly to you, but I actually like Dodge’s approach. I don’t think ignoring ICE enthusiasts and simply saying “We’re building EVs now, and they’re going to be silent and not offer any shifting” is the right move. There are lots of EV skeptics out there; meeting them where they are, and showing the way to EV salvation step-by-step, while giving them some of the joys that many electric vehicles today don’t offer (like sound and shift points) is an okay strategy to win V8-lovers’ hearts.
but what are you wearing?
A short sleeve shirt that flatters my biceps, and dress pants that are just a little too tight around my junk. Or not tight enough if you like what you see.
Not my bag, but I know a guy down the street….
I absolutely love this unapologetically absurd machine. I’ve always really liked muscle cars but have never wanted to actually own one for myriad reasons…although the horrific fuel economy and extremely high cost of ownership that it contributes to have been the main culprits.
Even though I’m still currently in an ICE car, I do try to be conscious of my carbon footprint…and the idea of owning a V8 pony/muscle car just can’t coexist with that. They’re ridiculously bad on gas (the EPA figures for all of them are hilariously optimistic) and they have higher emissions. Plus, they’re extremely expensive to insure…and when you combine that with essentially paying double for gas, the cost of admission is only the tip of the iceberg.
You might be able to afford to buy a Camaro SS, Scat Pack Doge, etc…but you’re going to keep paying out the ass for it as long as you own it if you’re driving it as god intended…which you should be, there’s literally nothing more beautiful than the sound of a big, Murican V8 at wide open throttle. Not sure how I feel about the fake loud exhaust system, but we’ll see.
But this? Amazing. It takes care of the main qualms I have with muscle cars. If it can provide a similar enough experience and people are willing to replace their gas guzzling V8s with it could make a huge difference. I’m impressed…and if they make a sedan variant of some sort it might wind up being my next car in 5-10 years.
Lately every time I hear some bro truck enthusiastically accelerating it sounds like a powerflush toilet. (once you hear it you can’t unhear it) I’m not against the idea of fake (or real) vroom vroom sounds, but is there any reason it can’t sound good?
a) Why is there a graphic of a buttplug at 10:05?
b) re: “We don’t need keys where we’re going” + the subsequent camera shot – While I always appreciate a Back to the Future reference, maybe invoking a DeLorean in a car ad isn’t well thought out.
I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’….
Just realized the buttplug is a portion of the Fratzog logo. Sorry to everyone who can’t unsee that now.
I’m probably in the minority here, but electric cars are irredeemably boring to me. The fact that people are now cooking up harebrained schemes to add “exhaust” and a “transmission” really illustrates this perfectly. It’s an armature, some magnets and a battery, and that’s all it’s ever going to be. Sure, they’re fast as hell, but there’s more to cars than just the sensation of being shot out of a cannon. I’m genuinely curious – do any of you actually find EVs intriguing, or are you valiantly feigning enthusiasm in the face of our impending automotive ennui?
“or are you valiantly feigning enthusiasm in the face of our impending automotive ennui?”
I’m convinced this is it for a lot of folks. EVs have some merits, I’m a big skeptic and even I will admit that readily. But I’m sorry, “soul” or whatever you want to call it is not among them.
The funniest thing about soul is that it’s totally subjective. Guys into high-boys, buckets, and belly racers will claim stuff from the ’60s had no soul. Guys into stuff from the ’60s will claim the Eurocars from the ’80s have no soul. Guys into the Eurocars from the ’80s will claim the early Civics, Eclipses and GTRs have no soul. Guys into the early Civics, Eclipses and GTRs will claim that the new versions have no soul. The guys into the new versions, will claim electric cars have no soul.
I’m not even talking about “soul”, because that’s an abstract concept that you’re 100% correct in labeling as subjective. I’m talking about being architecturally interesting in the way ICE vehicles are. Their fundamental design mimics nature (however crudely) and can be modified to be more powerful, more efficient or anything in between that your heart desires. I can’t imagine ever approaching a Tesla Plaid owner at a car meet and talking about all of the drivetrain modifications they made because there’s simply nothing there to modify. Adding individual personalities to cars in the future will only be done through a subscription service provided by the manufacturer.
I was curious and skeptical about EVs until I had the chance to actually drive one…and found it to be a far superior driving experience. The linear acceleration is fantastic and the instant torque actually helps with handling as it pulls you through a turn after the apex. It is a different driving experience from rowing ones own gears, but I would say it can be equally as thrilling. Accelerating quickly in virtual silence, such as on a rollercoaster that launches you up the track is more fun than one might think. I think that Dodge trying to reach the skeptics with this vehicle is a great effort and hopefully will help encourage people to join a future with a variety of differently powered drivetrains. I think BEV, PHEV, hydrogen, etc will all proliferate, hopefully making a new era of fantastic cars.
So, I can’t speak exclusively to the “car” argument, but I bought an electric motorcycle back in ’15. I bought a Brammo Empulse R, as it was the best analogue to a “normal” motorcycle that I could afford. At the time, I also had a Triumph Sprint ST and a Yamaha YZF-600R. Once I got the Empulse, it was the bike I went for first. It was less of a hassle, quieter, accelerated faster, and was just much easier to live with. Since I’ve had it, I’ve gone through a few other gas bikes, and after I sold the Rocket III, I’m down to the Empulse as my solo bike. It’s not perfect, but no motorcycle is. But it totally sold me on EVs. I don’t actually even WANT another gas motorcycle. It’s even something you can tinker with. I have mine apart right now to put in an improved 12V DC/DC convertor, and I’m probably going to have some custom upholstery done on the seat. I’ve upgraded the instruments, lighting, done a pillion delete, added vibration deadening to the plastics, bar end mirrors, better tires, etc. etc.
For my DD, I’m also going electrified when the time comes to put my V60 out to pasture. I don’t know if I’ll go full electric or PHEV, but in a couple of years, it really seems like the options are going to be more compelling for accessible cars.
So yeah, I do find EVs intriguing. I think that they’re going to make it easier to have more interesting designs because powertrain packaging is going to be more flexible. Battery chemistry is going to continue to improve. The charging infrastructure is also going to continue to improve. I think that a lot more exciting things are happening in the EV space than in the ICE space.
To your question, the handling potential of them intrigues me most.
The possibilities for lower center of gravity + more uniformly distributed weight are fascinating.
I ride motorcycles, and taking a fast turn on a bike using technique (in my case, fairly badly, but…) to approximate those things results in a cool experience unlike anything in most cars. It’s transcendent when you get it all right.
So I’m interested in what EVs might be able to bring to the everyday car driving experience in that realm. But I’ll admit that most of the (non-autopian…not you guys!) car buying public doesn’t really care about such things, so that experiential dynamic probably won’t be high on automaker’s lists of deliverables.
It’s a bit of both. I think EV commuter cars are a level of appliance that would bore me to death…but I find some of the ones that are pushing the design and performance envelope to be intriguing. The Taycan and its stablemate the e-Tron GT come to mind….and the general consensus with the Taycan seems to be that it genuinely has Porsche driving characteristics, so it can be done.
Unfortunately none of the interesting ones are affordable yet. There’s an argument to be made for a Model 3 or something like that but Elon/the early 2000s corporate office park interior are dealbreakers for me personally.
I can’t get excited for the NPC EVs, but I can for stuff like this that pushes the envelope and attempts to inject some soul into a technology that’s not naturally conducive to it. I think and hope that eventually we’ll see some intriguing sporty EVs that normal folks can afford…the Ioniq 5 is close to it, but to get a quick one is still a $50,000+ proposition, which is out of reach for most people. I also think that as the technology improves the drive will too.
We’ll see if this Charger pulls it off. As folks are saying…if they can produce a version that costs about the same as the current ICE ones, they’ll have a winner on their hands. I’m personally hoping for an RT equivalent, because that level of price and power would be the sweet spot for me personally and I think it would be for a lot of other folks too. $40,000 or so, 400ish horsepower, 0-60 in the high 4s/low 5s. I’ll be stoked if it winds up existing, but we’ll see.
I don’t find that electrification in and of itself removes much of anything from the aesthetic value of a car. And that’s what we’re talking about, right? The practical value is the same: transportation. Gets you from A to B. A good one might take you all the way to Z. But a motor is just… a motor. Primitive ones are interesting (sometimes fascinating) because of the Rube Goldberg way they turn a bucket of fossil fuel into heat, noise, and motion. But the newer they are, the more efficient they get, and the larger share of the energy goes to motion rather than heat and noise. Gearheads like us enjoy fiddling with ICE engines, but the vast majority of drivers just want them to work, with a minimum of heat, noise, vibration, and wear & tear. Every other aspect of driving a car is irrespective of drivetrain: the upholstery, the clarity of the window glass, the smell embedded in the carpet near the back seat, the safety factor afforded by passive and active restraint systems, the handling, the mechanism for raising or lowering the windows, how much wind gets in your hair, how much lumbar support you get from the seats, how many child seats or golf bags fit inside, the appeal of the body contours… at a certain point, the mechanism for turning fuel or electricity into forward motion takes a distant back seat to so many other considerations. The motor’s a black box: fuel goes in, and it makes something spin. And that’s kind of all there is to it. There’s something fetishistic about reserving one’s enthusiasm solely for lumps of iron with pistons inside at the expense of every other (arguably superior and definitely more efficient) way of spinning a shaft.
So yeah. As a guy who owns a 1970 Mercury Cougar with a gas-fueled 351W V8 engine that is my baby… I am solidly intrigued by EVs in general, and this Dodge one in particular.
I’m not referring to the aesthetic value at all. I’m talking about it being interesting and worth talking about. I just can’t see myself ever getting into a deep in the weeds discussion with someone about voltage regulators or whatever the hell can be tweaked on an EV.
EVs might have the simplest last mile in how they spin a shaft to deliver power to the ground, but the broader picture reveals them to be a far bigger and more complex Rube Goldberg machine than ICE could ever be. Power is generated hundreds of miles away with a significant portion lost in transmission before being delivered to a very heavy battery pack that ultimately spins a shaft to propel the vehicle. Excluding any proclaimed environmental benefits (though I find even some of those to be dubious) EVs are laughably inefficient at this task in comparison to ICE.
Because you distill your own artisan petrol in your backyard? You can clean up the grid in a way you can’t decarbonize oil. The arguments that coal power is dirty should mean we try to move away from that quicker, not use it as an excuse to do nothing. Yes, there are issues with mineral extraction and worker/environmental rights where batteries and the like are made, but again that’s an argument for fixing that problem. Also more people should reduce absolute car trips and aggregate miles driven. We don’t need to ban all private car ownership, but traffic jams are not a virtue either. EVs won’t save us, but we also can’t just do nothing
I dunno, I dig my electric motorcycles. I also dig my various carbureted gas bikes and my pickups, and still do a tiny bit of wrenching. All I can say is that a) it feels like you can’t hardly do squat with OBD2 now and b) with regen, the motor feels like it’s always in the right gear.
I can honestly say I like EVs. Go karts are fun. Air pollution and huffing exhaust is not. Neither is paying for gas. I won’t miss oil changes.
I do enjoy driving and I like cars, but I’ve long since come to terms with living somewhere my automotive tastes (small wagons, manuals) are niche, so having to make tradeoffs has long been a fact of life. Shifting a manual and feeling a turbo spool and hearing (some) engine noise are all part of what makes driving an ICE car enjoyable, but the connection to the mechanics is what makes it fun, it’s not an end to itself. Shifting in a traffic jam is annoying, loud exhaust at the school run or running errands is obnoxious. Life moves on. There are other ways to have fun going fast.
I can’t wait for electrified RAM trucks with simulated coal-rolling.
It sprays a fine dust of finely ground organic, fair trade certified coffee out of the 6″ stacks through the truck bed.
I actually high-key like the fratzog as a logo/emblem. If any of the design makes it into actual production, Dodge will have succeeded in making a nice looking vehicle than Cadillac (so many disappointing vaporware concepts). I’m going to also mirror DT’s points on this regarding how to approach your current market while keeping an eye on the future. It does give me hope that the transition forward can be paved with reasonable compromise.
There’s a whole lotta gimmick in this car.
I’m not thrilled that people will be adding amplifiers to their noise generators (126db is already FOOKING LOUD) and I wouldn’t be thrilled to maintain physical shifting transmissions that aren’t needed and don’t add performance. The shifts must be simulated, generating multiple driveline shocks per acceleration event for no reason.
Dodge probably knows their customers. By milking every last ounce of sales from their ancient charger/challenger/300 platform they have backed themselves into a corner and have to appeal to a certain crowd.
I am so not into the gimmicks. I don’t love loud cars. If the “transmission” improves performance or efficiency, that’s great. But romanticizing shift shock and going deaf just make me do a giant eye roll.
No one buys a Dodge for efficiency.
Love the look, love that it’s a two door, even kind of dig that sound, but I do have questions about what’s going on there. It’s not moving any faster when it “revs”, so the noise doesn’t appear to have any connection to what the motors are actually doing. Unless the driver is seriously putting it in neutral to show off, then back to drive to continue the slow crawl around, I’m not sure what exactly I just watched.
Okay, this all seems sort of dumb, but dumb like AC/DC, so at least still fun.
If it goes right. Otherwise, it’s dumb like Limp Bizkit and uh oh for Chrysler.
The engine sound is… if that’s what they’re going with and it’s just speakers, it’s bad. It’s real bad.
Also 126dB using what method? Not that there’s any method where that isn’t stupid and illegally loud number. FFS, aircraft taking off are 140dB and prolonged exposure to 70dBQ causes permanent damage.
But that sound. It’s just… so bad. It’s like somebody trying to emulate a 1980’s F1 engine with a kazoo.
Since I still don’t have an edit button, here’s another even more glaring fact about that 126dB exhaust.
The absolute limit for all competition vehicles in IMSA is 105dB, unless the track has a specified lower limit.
I absolutely expect the final production version to have a warning that flashes on the dash screen(s) noting that high volumes will damage your hearing, since they’ll end up piping most of that sound into the cockpit.
And I can only imagine a year later, the amount of dates who will be saying “what?? Could you please turn that down? NO TURN IT DOWN! THIS IS HORRIBLE!”
Interesting though that we seem to be entering an era where sound is now a concept part of concept cars.
Oh, absolutely there will be a big flashy warning. (Fuck you headphone warning, this is a high impedance connection, I know what I’m doing.)
But funny thing… sound has always been a huge part of car design in performance cars. Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette, you name it, they spend insane amounts of time tuning the sound to be just so.
And this isn’t just ‘hearsay’ or ‘I read an article once.’ One of the people who used to do exactly that is local and I’ve chatted with him about it. For certain makes/models, it’s everything. If that exhaust does not sound exactly right, they will hold up production for it alone.
Hell, the very first thing Ford showed with the Shelby GT350 was the sound of the flat-plane crank. C8 Corvette? Exhaust note. Corolla GR? Exhaust note.
So it’s definitely not new. But being this utterly abysmal, well, uh, yeah. Chrysler always did love their firsts?
Generally, I really dig this. It looks good (though, somehow the wheels/tires look too small for the somewhat swollen looking body), and I like that it’s about performance and all that (though, Dodge measures performance differently than a lot of companies and consumers). Not sure I love the whole sound thing. Seems a bit tacky to me. I thought the same about the LiveWire, and VW’s Soundaktor, and all other similar fake-sound and fake-sound adjacent things. But, in actuality they seem to be non-issues.
Overall, I’ve got high hopes for it. Now, just don’t crush me with some crazy price, horrible reliability, or anything like that.
The sound is an absolute abomination. It reminds me of bad audio in a video game where they take one idle sound and just…make it faster. It sounds like, well, that.
Just noticed the retro-style logo…amazing how boom, it instantly makes the current hash mark thing look dated.
As mber said yesterday in the Hornet discussion, THIS is the logo Dodge should be using. Love it.
I wonder if they’re going to change it before the Hornet actually launches, do one year of Hornets with the old logo like there’s one year of gen 3 Kia Souls with the old logo, or reserve the fratzog for “performance” models like it wasn’t in the ’60s (my first intro to it as a kid was the hubcaps on base-model vans and trucks).
I have a friend who bought a Sportage right before the logo changeover. He’s not a car guy, and doesn’t care, but every time I see it, I think “awww…the uninspired fake Ford oval…sigh”.
And thank you! That’s where I’d first seen the logo too but I couldn’t remember…teenage summer job, we had an old decrepit powder blue Dodge van with the vinyl interior and the hupcaps!
I always thought that the reason behind the KIA oval was amusing. I just can’t believe they kept it for so long. The new logo is SO much better.
Love the concept; not sure about the sound. I close my eyes and hear my Milwaukee leaf blower. Also, the fact that the article twice refers to it as “The Dodge Charger Dayton SRT Concept” makes me think Ohio has got it going on! LOL 😀
An EV cosplaying as an ICE car, complete with fake revving sounds? I didn’t know electric motors had flywheels…
I did the same thing when I was growing up by putting a playing card in the spokes of my bicycle. No one was fooled then, either.
But it was kinda cool. I’m pro-playing card-in-spoke.
I am too, for children, but if I see a grown adult with a playing card in the spokes, I’m going to wonder if they are mentally a child, or borrowing a child’s bike.
I mean, adult and child bikes aren’t the same size, so there’s some clues available.
Also, they’re not hurting you. Let people enjoy things, even if you can’t.
Fair on the first point. On the second, noise for the sake of noise, loud enough for other people to hear, affects those other people.
but they are still peddle bikes, so either way a card to make noise is really the same regardless.
Imagine being drawn to a car because it makes brrm brrm sounds.
Imagine pretending people don’t care about sounds. F1 switches to V6 engines and people complain they sound bad. Ford puts a flat-plane crank in their Mustang, and people laud how nice it sounds. Huge portions of the aftermarket community surrounding cars has to deal with changing/improving how cars sound. Sounds clearly matter, and therefore it doesn’t seem illogical for a company to try to transfer that over to their future products. I’m not saying it will work. I’m simply saying it’s entirely logical to recognize that people like cool sounds, and therefore try to continue on with cool sounds. Like I said, it might not work; consumers may be turned off by the “fakeness” or tackiness, or whatever you want to call it. But the direction they are going makes sense.
let’s not forget that Honda has been doing it for a while now to make the “performance” Civics sound more like fart piped F&F wannabes
I bet most people here don’t have to imagine that.
Oh good, Dodge is making sure future douchebros will still be able to make obnoxious noises every time they pull away from a stoplight in city traffic. I was really going to miss having to pause my conversation at the bistro because some man-baby needs attention.
Even if Dodge did nothing along these lines, you’d still have the Harleybros, which are their own, not wholly dissimilar, breed.
Such a good, South Park-y point.
For this, I marginally prefer the sportbike bros to the Harley variety b/c with the cruisers, the obnoxiously loud sounds come right off idle, whereas the sportbike guys have to really rev it to get that ear-splitting swarm of locusts noise we all treasure.
And most of them just don’t do it, as they know the power will be enough to dump them if they don’t launch just right.
Don’t forget the Polaris Slingshots! While they may not be super loud, every douchebro that owns one always has a loud system in it. Seriously, I could rant for hours on end how much I dislike them because of their owners.
What I really enjoy about the Slingshots is the neon light package. Don’t know if it’s a factory option or aftermarket, but the effect seems the same – it’s literally a way to shine lights on yourself.
Slingshots are beyond stupid. Just get a damn Miata.
well, based upon your name, I for one have met quite a few Lawyers that fit into the Douche Category. Your point is invalid as a result.
In the business Im in,
I know quite a few Lawyers, Police types, Architects and or Engineers. Then add in the milquetoast variety of sloberry typically found at a City Red Light.. head down staring at their.. un-secured-device, on shitbook or somesuch.. not paying attention to anything around them…
And ya worried about.. your little conversation at the BISTO?
In that case.. I make quite a few noises leaving a City Stop Light or Stop Sign. Why… cause no one else cares, gives a damn.. or has nothing else more interesting to do. I know a slew of Lawyers in Top End Bitch Trucks.. and a quite a few more in top end Sedans.. XJLs, 7 series… (nothing good like a ALPINA M5.)
Wouldnt it be really NICE.. to stop with the self important conversations at your Bistro.. to just appreciate the nice loud Challengers.. while we have them. Instead of the laptops on wheels and Narsissistical attitude of virtually everyone else?
Agreed 100%. One of the advantages of electric powerplants was that they are quiet/stealthy. Oh well. I guess at a time when even BMW is offering ICE exhaust systems that are loud and go “snap/pop” on every downshift, we shouldn’t expect better from Dodge.
“Trust me, this is not the EV they want you to have”
So it comes with a Let’s Go Brandon sticker on the rear window?
Grayed-out full-window American flag appliqués are a dealer installed option, blue central stripe $175 extra.
My coworker immediately put those on the rear quarter windows on his Challenger. It was cringe worthy. Then he added some “back the blue” thingy on the rear view mirror that faced out (forward).
Some people will do anything to try to avoid a speeding ticket.
Yeah, after working with the guy for ~3 years, I don’t think that was his first intent.
It’s almost awe-inspiring how fully they’ve leaned in to their adoptive user base. I don’t know how Dodge and red caps became synonymous, but man, they’re not shy about it, are they?
You must not be near a city cause the Charger and Challenger user base here is quite the opposite
I hate Dodge, I hate Stellantis even more. But, I gotta give them a lot of credit on this one. It is very pretty, and I like the approach. Would be even better if it had a clutch. Kudos Dodge, kudos.
This sounds like a fancy way of saying it’s an artificially generated noisemaker, aka, a speaker system. Which is every bit as lame as piping “simulated engine sounds” into the cabin the way other carmakers have done. Except this way everyone gets to hear it.
It is pretty, though.
Yeah, there’s something offputting about something completely artificial that has nothing to do with any function in reality.
BUT as a guy who owns a Mustang that came with a ridiculous fake hood scoop, I still kinda guilty-pleasure like it.
I just hope it’s fixed-volume. Otherwise, plenty of the target audience for the eventual car will jack it up as loud as possible all the time.
Yeah I only like the roar of free-range V8’s, completely natural and untouched by human hands.
Which is good, if this thing is doing 105 down the street, you WANT people to know it’s coming.. and not have it silently come up on someone.
I love it. Looks great and I always wondered if someone would put a transmission into an EV. Although, since it is dual motor, I expect it is more of a voltage regulator to make the motors surge rather than a real transmission built to serve 2 motors. But when EV’s are the rule, these things will be the equivalent of a Harley or an WRX with glass pack muffler; loved by the owners, hated by all others.
I hope it has a mute button.
I have an EV motorcycle with a 6-speed transmission. It seems like it should have been a no-brainer for motorcycles. I can hit triple digits both in speed and range (but not at the same time) in a 450 lb package.
This is ridiculous. Silly. Juvenile. And I like it.
Not everything needs to make sense. Cars that are ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous can be a lot of fun. Enthusiasts mock stuff like this now…but decades down the road they’ll be fighting over used examples after a particularly insightful RCR review. It always comes full circle eventually.
I understand why people hate muscle/pony cars, and the current V8s are absolutely not sustainable in light of the climate crisis. But there’s a pure, hilarious joy that comes with a V8 at wide open throttle, and I think a lot of the folks that bash them probably haven’t driven one to be honest. There’s a reason why they’re the defacto sports car for so many people…
We live in a golden age for nonsense, and that’s not always a bad thing.
“We live in a golden age of nonsense, and that’s not always a bad thing.”
This is the correct perspective. Thank you.
I enjoy that Dodge is basically bringing the police cars from the criminally-overlooked movie In Time to life.
And with a sound seemingly right out of Tron: Legacy.
Actually this is a lot closer to The Dilemma. That movie’s premise was actually about two guys developing an “exhaust” system for an electric version of the Charger. I kid you not, this is literally ripped straight out of a Kevin James movie.
“There are lots of EV skeptics out there; meeting them where they are”
Whatever this is, it isn’t meeting us where we are.
Give me something that I can add 300-350 miles of range to in 5 minutes at every single freeway exit in America like I can with every gas powered car in existence, and you’re meeting me closer to where I am.
It’s a fair point.
You “skeptics” are so weird. Like, yeah, we all get it, EV’s aren’t a full 100% replacement for ICE vehicles yet. No one is claiming that. But you are basically watching the march of it slowly happening before your very eyes, and yet it’s because it’s still off in the distance, you are there yelling, “YOU AREN’T HERE YET, THEREFORE YOU ARE SHIT. MEET US HERE! WHY AREN’T YOU HERE!?!?!? MEET US WHERE WE ARE!”
“Like, yeah, we all get it, EV’s aren’t a full 100% replacement for ICE vehicles yet. No one is claiming that.”
Well ICE vehicles are disappearing from lineups pretty fast, the rates of battery and infrastructure improvements don’t seem to be keeping pace, and state level mandates are looming, so yeah I’m a bit concerned.
What ICE vehicles are disappearing that are genuinely making you nervous? What mandates are looming that are making your nerevous?
EV adoption rates are still in the single digits as far as I’m aware. And while infrastructure is lagging, it always has. You think many gas stations existed in 1908? No. Demand is what generally drives these sorts of things.
One needn’t read any farther than this very article to get some answers to that.
The Charger and Challenger are gone. Cadillac has announced no more gas powered V series. Most of the German automakers have said the current generation of gas engines are their last. GM has committed to no combustion engines after 2035. Etc etc etc.
California, Washington, and New York at least have mandates coming, there may be more. Most of Europe does too, and the automakers are all global.
And the die hards will say “2030 or 2035 is a long ways out, what are you worried about??!!”
Well, the Tesla Model S launched in 2012 with a 265 mile range. A decade later, apart from $150k halo cars with enormous batteries, most EVs have about the same range. The paradigm shift in battery chemistry that has been promised simply has not arrived. Cold weather range degradation is still a thing. Recharge times are marginally improved, but still many multiples of gas refueling times.
Might all that change in another decade? Sure it might. But the trends so far haven’t justified the near fanatical devotion to what for most people is a significant reduction in functionality vs the status quo. EVs aren’t new anymore. And every year that the automakers put out another $60,000 250 mile range offering, it just means we have even less time to change that before the alternatives are banned.
So, a very small subset of performance vehicles–that make an a very small market share–are going away over the next ~5 years and that’s got you shaking in your boots about the entire car industry?
And could you be any more vague about the mandates?
And your Tesla argument is pure bullshit. That 2012 Model S cost something like $60k, which is nearly $78k today. You use that as if no progress is made, when you can get 265 mile range cars for less than half of that today.
Your entire argument is too full of vaguities, broad strokes, an intentional misrepresentations of the progress that has been made.
You could buy a 265 mile range Bolt for $30,000 in 2016 if you prefer.
Regardless, where are the $78,000 cars that significantly improve on the decade old Tesla’s range? Failing that, where are the cars that improve on the cost/range metric set by a Bolt 6 years ago? The point is not that the technology is becoming cheaper, it’s that range has seemingly plateaued outside of niche flagship vehicles.
Information on the state and European mandates is readily available. The comment system does not let you embed a ton of hyperlinks, but I trust you can find it.
Here is a list of automakers planning to phase out ICEs on a relatively short time scale:
VW: Only electrics launched after 2026, all ICEs done by 2035.
Audi: Only EVs by 2033
GM: Only EVs by 2035
Volvo, Jaguar: Only EVs by 2030
Mercedes, Stellantis,: No new investment in ICEs
If you can shrug your shoulders about that, great. I can’t.
I understand what you’re saying, but consider that the Model S had 265 miles of range in 2012 at a price of around 70k. That’s 90k today. Today, we have cars with that range for less than half the price. So the range per vehicle isn’t necessarily increasing, but the range per dollar absolutely is.
Also, 2030 is a long way away. The average age of cars on the road has never been higher. Assuming ICE cars made in 2030 last 15 years like we see on the road today, you’ll have the option to drive an ICE car for another 25 years if you so desire. So consider the EV-related progress made in the last decade – how much more do you think we’ll see in two and a half more decades with consumer demand and government mandates supporting it this time?
Note that I don’t have an EV nor do I plan on buying one for another 7-8 years at least. So I have no horse in this race.
We had a Bolt with that range in 2016 for $30,000. No progress seems to have been made since then.
It’s also not just about range per dollar; most $90K cars today have a ~300 mile range too. Marginal improvement in a decade to be sure.
The 2017 Bolt had 238 miles of range and cost $37,500 ($46,290 in today’s dollars) before any credits. Today, a Bolt is $25,600 and has 259 miles of range. That’s no progress? ~9% range increase, and a effective 44% price decrease?
What ICE vehicles have been able to achieve a price decrease, without negatively impacting performance, during that same time?
Why does progress need to be made past 300 miles per charge? Isn’t that sort of where an average fuel tank gets you? I’m sure it meets the daily needs of 99% of people, whether you are a CEO or a cashier.
And if 300 miles per charge is sufficient for typical use cases, then lowering the price is what is important. I’d argue that bringing 300 miles of range down from 90k to 30k by 2016 is much more than marginal improvement. Saying that it hasn’t lowered much in the past 5-6 years is a bit disingenuous considering we endured a global pandemic, extensive supply chain issues, and now rampant inflation.
Just stretch the timeline out to the EV1, and it’s impressive as fuck. But naw, lets limit it to the past 6-10 years for some reason, and then selectively pick wrong numbers for arguments sake.
“Most ICE cars have a 300~400 miles of range. Why does that not bother you? It’s been that way for decades.”
It’s hardly worth responding to this question, because I know that you know the answer is that this range can be replenished in 5 minutes at any freeway exit. If EVs get to that point before they are mandated/phased out, then my objections to their low range will vanish.
Replying to both of you with my last thoughts on the matter.
300 miles would be perfectly fine if the recharge time were solved, or if EVs could remain as secondary cars and ICEs were still available for purchase now and forever.
You guys are both hung up on price, which is fine if that’s your primary concern when buying a vehicle. It isn’t mine. If batteries are so much cheaper now, why isn’t range being extended while maintaining price instead of price decreasing while maintaining range? Instead we see EVs at all price levels under $150,000 plateauing at 250-350 miles of range.
The Tesla Model S was the first modern mass market EV, that’s why I chose it as the range benchmark. A decade ago we were promised new battery chemistries were just a couple years away that would radically improve range, recharge times, and cost. Only the last of those has turned out to be true, and if you can share with me any reason I should be more optimistic about a paradigm shift now than years ago, please let me know.
The biggest problem facing EVs is that their entire approach has been fundamentally flawed from the very beginning. Automakers tried their best to facilitate adoption by making the experience as close of an analog to traditional vehicles as possible, and part of this was integrating battery charging into the cars to make it similar to filling up the tank. In my mind, this was a huge mistake. The batteries for EVs should be standardized to a handful of sizes and connector types and designed to be quickly (and safely) detached. Imagine a network of battery warehouses in major cities where you drive into one of a multitude of service bays where your depleted battery is swapped on a gurney with a freshly charged unit in a matter of minutes. It sounds ridiculous, but it would solve multiple, difficult issues facing EVs in the densely populated urban centers where they’re actually needed the most.
Most ICE cars have a 300~400 miles of range. Why does that not bother you? It’s been that way for decades.
The plateau of ranges likely has to do with the use case of consumers. If there was some $150,000 EV that got 1,000 miles of range, I don’t think that would be a good sales case since most customers would rather pay half of that, for 1/4-1/3 the range. If people need such range, they are just going to stick to ICE.
I’ve road tripped multiple times across the country, in everything from RV’s, to trucks, motorcycles, etc. I’m no stranger to 500 mile days. Hell I’ve done an ironbutt 1000 when buying a used motorcycle.
Recharge time simply isn’t that important to the average consumer. Full stop.
Within the retiree pool, where all you have is time, and travelling vast distances ‘just for the hell of it’ is part of your general lifestyle, it absolutely matters. Likewise, if you plan on towing basically anything at all, recharge time matters. Short of towing your boat to the lake 30-50 miles away, towing with current electric trucks is simply not realistic.
But that’s not the point. For the average consumer, 300 miles is fine. Many but not all can charge at home, so they never have to worry about ’30 minutes to recharge’. And as electric cars become the norm, you’ll absolutely find electric charging in more locations, like the proliferation of chargers at Walmarts, Walgreens, etc you’ll start finding charging in more spots to make charging while you’re at work more accessible. 30 minutes to charge if you live in an apartment or a rented home is a problem until you can do so while you work, or while you shop. You’ll absolutely have to pay for the privilege as the days of free electric charging are rapidly coming to an end, but it was never sustainable in the first place.
Regardless, you’ll never see swappable batteries take off for general consumer vehicles. It’s not enough of an issue for it to be worth solving, and getting all of the manufacturers to agree to a 5″ hole to plug into their vehicle is a gargantuan undertaking. Expecting manufacturers to standardize on replaceable batteries is simply impossible.
And we’ll absolutely see longer range in more electric vehicles as they become ‘the norm’, and the market is saturated. Are you going to see a 500 mile Bolt? No. a 500 mile Audi a6 equavalent? No. But it’s reasonable to expect 500 mile ‘luxury EV’s’ like A8’s, Cadillacs, top end MB’s, etc. And once you have a 5-600 mile battery pack, then the need to recharge to 100% during long distance travel becomes unnecessary, you can simply recharge from 10% to 75% in 10-15 minutes, and have another 300+ miles of range.
I don’t see a realistic solution to replacing diesel or gas for towing applications. And enough politicians and people with political power have horses that I don’t see them banning gas 100% ever. You’ll see carve-outs for ‘specialty uses’ like towing rigs. While it’s not unreasonable to envision some rich politician dropping $150k on a long-range ev truck, and another 150k on a battery-pack carrying EV horse trailer like 300K is nothing, it’s unreasonable to expect their vetrinarian to do the same, or their farmhands, etc. They’ll become more expensive as they continue to tax the heck of of it, both on the fuel and on the original purchase end.
The concept of 100% electric in 10 years is laughable. But the concept of 100% general consumer electric vehicles is less laughable, even if it’s still unrealistic. Grandpa Joe who wants to visit his grandkids once a month will simply need to pony up for an electric Lincoln-Towncar equivalent expensive, long-range EV.
Where it becomes a problem is any time you have a trip that exceeds that 300 mile range. For the past century, your tank ran low, you could refill it in less time than it took to take ten puffs on your Marlboro. If swappable batteries become a widespread thing, or the ability to recharge a battery safely in under ten minutes, then the transition to FEVs becomes painless. But if recharging continues to take as long as it currently does, even people with regular-length daily commutes will have to plan for lengthy interruptions of longer road trips, and those that drive long trips regularly are gonna have good reason to squawk.
The new Kia and Hyundai EVs charge from 10 to 90% in about 15 minutes. Give or take a few.
Yeah, it’s still longer than filling a fuel tank, but it’s not MUCH longer.
you are completely glossing over the vehicles we are losing because of New Green Deal BS. Your other point is also a problem. the two main things that scare people from BEV is Range and Cost. There is no 20K BEV, the cheapest is 28K and is the 149 mile range Nissan leaf. and even that short distanced thing takes hours to charge on most level 2 chargers, DC is still 30 minutes in most cases and it seems like things like AC and Heat reduce range much more than they do in ICE versions or equivalents. (mini Copper is 34K and only get 114 miles to a charge BTW)
A Bolt is $26.5k and has 259 miles of range.
no it is 33k unless you are lucky enough to get my taxes back as a subsidy.
No, the 2023 Bolt has an MSRP of $26,500. I just double checked it on the Chevrolet website and three different auto news sources.
“General Motors is cutting the price of the base Chevy Bolt to $26,595 for 2023. That’s over $5,000 less than the price of the base Bolt EV for 2022. But, perhaps more importantly, it’s also less than the price of any new EV sold in the U.S. right now, according to CNN. Meaning that the 2023 Chevy Bolt will be the cheapest EV in America.”
That is if it doesn’t catch on fire first considering EVERY ONE was recalled for fire risk and owners were told to not even park them near ANYTHING.
If you’re driving a gas/diesel vehicle you really don’t want to go down the government subsidy path. The ev subsidies go directly to consumers, while the benefits your taxes support for the petrochemical industry, from extractive industry specific tax breaks, to profiting from public land/resources, to multi-trillion dollar wars so they can access Middle Eastern oil fields, go to big businesses. Every gallon you buy in the U.S. has an artificially low price, courtesy of your, and my, taxes. Congress is full of petrochemical industry lapdogs, eager to trade legislation for campaign dollars.
And somehow, despite that, the rate of ‘mysteriously catching on fire’ for EVs is an *order of magnitude* lower than for petrol powered vehicles.
The Bolt battery recall was necessary. The chances of problems were incredibly small, but they could absolutely be removed by replacing the batteries, so replacing the batteries was the right thing to do.
Whereas Toyota currently has a model that’s under a do-not-drive-at-all recall for the WHEEL FALLING OFF.
I mean. Electric car batteries are at least sort of new. I can understand that getting screwed up. But we’ve been bolting wheels to hubs for a looong time now.
The newest car I’ve ever owned was five years old, so I’ve got until at least 2035 before I can’t easily buy an ICE car (probably longer).
That said, my next car will be either hybrid or fully electric, but it’ll hopefully be at least ten years before I need to buy another car, and maybe by then there’ll be good second-hand possibilities.
A lot of us wandered over here from Jello Pudding. Over there, bad-faith arguments like “California should just ban combustion cars immediately” were the norm. So I’m not used to journalists meeting me where I’m at.
I think you’re being dismissive of some genuinely good discussion starting points. Transportation needs to be carbon neutral, like, yesterday. But what if EVs specifically aren’t the one-size-fits-all solution they’re often touted as being? What if battery swapping, rather than fast charging, is the best consumer-facing solution and every non-swappable current ev looks as antiquated as a horse in two decades? What if carbon-neutral synthetic fuels start advancing as rapidly as battery technology has?
Meeting V10omous where he’s at, and meeting the public where they’re at with the questions I posed above, would mark actual progress for both products and policy. The Dodge move of tossing your hands up and blaming big gubmint for EVs (seriously, christ, try to read Tim Kuniskis’ quote without doing a crotchety, conspiratorial Boomer guy voice in your head), and then just delivering a simulation of an old muscle car? That isn’t progress.
You must be mistaken, because, bad-faith arguments like that weren’t the norm. To me, and I’m sure lots of other people that frequent that site, you are massively misrepresenting arguments.
And I’m not being dismissive. I’m simply pointing out that we (I?) recognize that EV’s aren’t fully there yet, but they continue to make massive strides. I also want to add that I don’t believe EV’s will ever fully replace ICE vehicles. I’m not saying ICE vehicles will be around forever, but EV’s and whatever other future technology comes along (maybe hydrogen, as well as something else I can’t imagine) will likely combine to make ICe vehicles obsolete. It’ll be a long process. This right here isn’t touting EV’s as the one size fits all solution you say people tout them as. Again, you are misrepresenting arguments here… the only thing bad-faith seems to be you. Just because someone out there might tout EV’s to be that solution, doesn’t mean it’s a wide-spread argument that you can thus cast over every single argument.
Pretty sure they’re talking about the actual published content over there and not commenters.
And making fun of Orlove’s infamous article will always be ok.
making batteries is not carbon neutral, neither is producing electricity in most cases. then their is the efficiency loss of transmitting the power that is often made by Natural gas or coal. some Hydro, wind and solar too, and coal is dwindling, but nobody is seemingly figuring this into the “clean” air equation.
Lots of places are taking the source of electricity, as well as batteries into consideration. They’ve been doing it for ages.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifetime-carbon-emissions-electric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html
https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better-for-the-environment/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2021/03/30/climate-curious-electric-cars/
Everyone serious about electrification has already figured this into the clean (no scare quotes required) equation. Unless you’re running a grossly inefficient AT-AT of a car like the Hummer (doesn’t that thing get like, 45MPGe?), the operation of even a purely coal-fired EV is at least as efficient as a Prius and usually moreso.
Actually, I’d be 100% down for Cali to ban the sale of new ICE vehicles immediately. If it was on a ballot I’d vote for it. All older than 2023 ICE cars phased out by 2027. All trucks on CA roads zero emissions by 2032.
After that you would need a special collectors license to run one, which here in LA all the Armenians would instantly have, the way they all have Disabled parking cards.
/this Dodge is fantastic, and if its 90% close to this at launch I would be very tempted.
/Narrator: it wasn’t.
it is not in the distance to those wanting to buy a new Hellcat anything. in one year, they will be discontinued.
The reverse argument; “Give me a car that I can’t add range to overnight so I have to use fast-charging everydamntime I need to recharge even if I’m only going to work and running errands”.
I think the “skeptics” in this case is pretty clearly not referring to those looking for an EV to match the practicality/convenience of ICE cars. It’s those who are looking for an EV to match the passion/experience of ICE cars. IE, Dodge is building an EV specifically to cater to their current audience. People who are buying old, loud, straight-line fast muscle.
Those customers do not care about 300 miles of range being filled up in 5 minutes at every exit ramp. Those customers care about their car being loud, feeling powerful, and having soul. I honestly think this thing delivers in spades and as hokey as the presser was, they are absolutely nailing the vibe they are so obviously going for.
We do care, and if Tesla can do 300 plus miles range in a bloated 4 door whale of a car, then Dodge owners are going expect more. Because Dodge owners like their gas drinking V8’s that only take 5-15 minutes to fill up currently, anything less will be a deterrent. the price of this thing, which they will likely never make as it is a concept, will be the deal sealer.
If you happen to be the odd use that travels that much in a day, then we’re probably not going to get there for a while. But for everyone looking at realistic expectations, we’re well on our way meeting them.
I don’t hate this as a concept. It is a meld of the two worlds. It also solves the silent approaching people aspect.
I am sure the price will be ridiculous, though I see it as a good move. The times will change and we either adapt or get left behind.
Wasn’t it Iacocca who said “lead, follow, or get out of the way”?
Although I believe that’s a Thomas Payne quote.
Or was it the Terminator? Asking for a friend….