As I feel I have demonstrated, I’m fascinated by the automotive offerings on that massive online retailer of questionable crap, Alibaba. Recently, I noticed some strange things showing up in all of the targeted Alibaba ads that interrupt my rigorous and unforgiving pornography-seeking web browsing: ads featuring old air-cooled Volkswagen Beetles, but from Alibaba! I know they don’t sell vintage air-cooled VW Beetles on Alibaba, so what’s going on here?
Look, here’s one of those ads that just now popped up:
Also, The Algorithm seems to be suggesting I maybe want to start looking around for a kidney? Is it tracking all the cans of Diet Coke I drink? Does it see the blood in my pee? And what the hell is JFrog?
Back to the Beetle ad there. That looks like a ’66 Beetle on that lift there, and the caption just says “Drive System $4,200.” What’s going on here? Clicking that ad took me here:
Well, holy crap, look at that: it’ an EV conversion kit for a classic VW Beetle. It appears to be specifically designed to mount that 15 KW/20 horsepower electric motor right to the standard VW Type I transaxle?
Now, these sorts of kits to convert Beetles (or other air-cooled VWs) to electric power have been around for decades, the simple design of the Beetle lending itself to such conversions. Here’s two 1970s-era kits, the Corbin-Gentry Electric Bug Kit and the King Engineering Kit:
Both of these kits took exactly the same approach as that Alibaba one: bolt a motor right to the existing VW transaxle, effectively just replacing the original flat-four motor for the job of spinning a shaft. Oh, and then cramming heavy lead-acid batteries into every bit of available space.
There’s a lot of these new Alibaba kits; that first one I saw was $4,500, but there’s ones for about $2,000 as well:
Again, as you can see in that picture, this looks to be a motor that bolts right to the transaxle and the required controlling/recharging/inverter/etc. hardware.
These prices are way, way less than the other old VW conversion kits out there; this one from EV west, considered by many to be one of the best out there, costs about $20,000. Companies like Zelectric will sell you a beautifully restored-and-converted Beetle for a lot of money, and so will Volkswagen themselves, but it’ll cost you about $100,000.
Of course, the VW-endorsed solution, engineered by e-Classics, takes a very different approach, replacing the whole drivetrain with one from the VW e-Up! and mounting the batteries under the chassis floor, as you can see above.
Those, of course, are all very out of my price range. But what about one of those Alibaba kits? See, my poor ’73 Beetle, which I’m very fond of and have had since I was 18, is kind of in a bad state. I took off the carbs to clean and maybe rebuild them a while back, then made the rookie mistake of starting an entire new car website, so those carbs have just been sitting on my workbench and in all of this time of neglect, my engine seems a bit frozen up.
Ugh.
I feel so guilty about letting it sit like this! The car has been such a huge part of my life, and I hate feeling like I’m letting it down. I need to do something.
I was going to pull it and see if I could get it turning again or maybe crack it open and try my hand at rebuilding it, but let’s be real: I don’t have that kind of time right now! And I don’t have a ton of cash to just throw at it! But! What if I pulled that engine and tried out one of these cheap EV conversion kits?
From what I can tell, this would be a reversible conversion, if I don’t do anything stupid, so if I wanted to slowly rebuild the flat-four, I could, and then swap it back.
And, sure, 20 electric horsepower would be a power downgrade of about a third, which isn’t ideal, but, hey, no gas to buy! No valves to adjust! No fumes! No heat in the winter!
Also, it’s not clear if these conversion kits include batteries; I suspect they don’t. So that would be another significant expense. And I wouldn’t want lead-acids, since I’d need to fill the trunk and the rear luggage well completely just to get, what, maybe 50 miles of range? No, a lithium-ion pack from a wrecked Leaf or something would be way better.
Maybe this would be as big a project as just rebuilding the engine? But, then again, it might be more engaging to read about or see videos of for people?
I’m not sure yet. But, I am extremely curious about what these Alibaba conversion kits are like, and how difficult they might be to install. Maybe it’s worth looking into?
Anyone interested in seeing what a budget Beetle EV conversion is like, as performed by an idiot who maybe shouldn’t be allowed around batteries? Can I convince David to help me with this conversion instead of trying it on his Golden Eagle?
Interesting article. My 2 cents:
The “drive system conversion kit from fuel to electric for VW BUG VW BEETLE” is awfully inexpensive for what they claim to be providing you. You get a 15kW 3ph asynchronous AC motor and inverter rated for 120 Nm peak torque(88 lb-ft), designed to run at either 96V, 108V, or 144V, for $4,600!? It doesn’t say at what voltage that peak power figure is arrived at, but a higher voltage extends the rpm that your peak torque will max out at. If you get 15kW(20 horsepower) at 144V, you will make 88 lb-ft of torque up to 1,200 rpm. However, if that 20 horsepower is made at 96V, then it may be possible to run the system at 144V and make 30 horsepower, extending the peak torque out to 1,800 rpm. This also works in reverse, as if this 20 horsepower is rated at 144V, running it at 96V means you’ll make peak torque to 800 rpm and only make about 13 horsepower. The specs aren’t clear on this.
It appears that you remove the transmission and it gives you a single speed gear ratio in its place, which is likely to be a proprietary component and likely unobtanium if the manufacturer goes out of business. I can’t see any other reason it would give you new axles. Meaning, you will need to make custom mounting hardware and an adaptor if you wish to retain your transmission. Retaining the transmission will likely be less efficient than this 1-speed setup provided.
The reliability and quality of this system is in question. If something fails, you may not be able to replace it if the kit is no longer sold.
No battery appears to be provided. Personally, I’d recommend finding some CALB CA60FI batteries. You could probably get a 144V 60AH pack for around $2,000-2,500. It would be a single string of batteries, would require fabrication of a battery box out of steel, and upon an initial bottom balancing, you wouldn’t need a BMS. In this configuration, you’d probably get a 70-80 mile range to full discharge at the claimed 90 kph top speed, and maybe a little more with city driving. Depending upon the gear ratio the kit gives you, top speed and range might be able to increase significantly with successful implementation of aerodynamic modifications.
You will also need a charger, which 144V chargers are all over the place for cheap. Expect to spend $500-2,000 depending on what you get. Make sure the charger is capable of charging the battery type you choose. If you’re using CALBs, I would highly recommend an Elcon. You will pay accordingly for charging speed, but if you want cheap, you can get an Elcon TCCH-144-15 for around $800-1,000 depending upon vendor.
You will also need a 12V auxiliary battery and a DC-DC converter to run your lights, wipers, radio, heater(should you choose to install a ceramic heating element or use cores from a hair dryer), ect. The 12V battery can be whatever, but the DC-DC converter needs to be able to put out enough continuous power to match the loading that you will use. Prices vary depending upon what you want, but expect to spend $150-$800.
So this will really be a $7,000-10,000 conversion.
You can actually shave about $2-4k off the cost going to a low voltage DC system meant for a golf cart, and get similar performance. Without having a high voltage of 144V, you could get away with a 48-72V system, have an adaptor plate, mounting, and coupler made to retain your original transmission, and THEN all your ancillary components get cheaper. You won’t need as expensive of a charger or a DC-DC converter, for instance. The savings cascade as a result of that. BUT your conversion will be 10-25% less efficient, and you’d need to choose larger AH batteries than what I recommended above.
Spend another $5k over what this Chinese kit is offering, and you could turn your Beetle into something able to do 0-60 mph in under 6 seconds and top 120+ mph instead of being a slug, and get at least the same range, and have rock solid reliability to hoon about to your heart’s content.
Looking at this more closely, it appears this system makes 15 kW continuous, but 55kW peak, at 144V. With the single speed gear ratio limiting it to 55 mph, its acceleration is going to be quite good. I suspect 0-30 mph around 4 seconds based upon the torque and assuming weight is about the same as stock.
That is not at all bad. Much more worth the money. This cheap Chinese kit that gives you everything but the charger, DC-DC converter, and batteries, is about half as good as an HPEVS system in terms of peak power, for about half the cost or an HPEVS motor/inverter combo(which doesn’t include all of the ancillaries this kit has). Most of the cost of this kit is likely going to be in the inverter. Blow that up, and the entire thing is junk.
In St. Louis, I know someone with a 120V Beetle conversion using an HPEVS system. It will do triple digit speeds and 0-60 mph in about 8 seconds, and uses CALB CA180FI batteries. Range is over 100 miles at highway speeds, real-world driving on the interstate at 65-70 mph. He retains the transmission and has a lot of custom fabricated components to make it work. For about $15k total cost, you could do a setup that will perform just like it, but you won’t get that from a kit, and will require custom fabrication.
Here’s a screen capture of the motor/inverter specs:
https://i.imgur.com/hBsZyea.jpg
Multiple kits listed in the article shared the same motor/inverter combo.
“My 2 cents…”
That was at least 8-9 cents worth of good information!
Also, “slugbugs” are supposed to be slugs (Just HAD to throw that in there)
It is a great idea! I mean, in a terrible kind of way. I am so here to read how it would go!
What’s the point? You’ve already got the Changli. No need to ruin the Beetle to have another one.
Looks like the main photo on the Alibaba listing (the Beetle on the lift) was pulled from an outfit in the UK called, appropriately, Electric Classic Cars. Look at the car in the background and compare to the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVtOss1U7_s&ab_channel=ElectricClassicCars
ECC are a legit outfit
I don’t think that is in question.
It does make one think about the legitimacy of the Chinese offering when they are “borrowing” pictures of what they claim to be selling.
Yes, and the range they do is fascinating, from classic humble ol’ people’s cars like the Beetle, the Fiat 500, and the Mini to banal Ferraris to a bona fide Gordon Keeble!
As CSRoad pointed out, though, the legitimacy of ECC isn’t in question as it’s the sketchiness of this vendor “borrowing” pictures from other outfits that’s the issue.
Toecutter! paging Dr Toecutter, A knucklehead is contemplating performing your specialized procedure. Please advise !
It’s not “my” specialized procedure. Thousands of people have done this before my GT6 EV first drove. But there are all kinds of directions this could go, and I offered my thoughts above.
Personally, if I was going to go through all of this effort, I’d spend the $15-20k needed to make it a go-fast machine with at least 100 miles of usable range, rather than have a $7-10k slug.
The wise seek out the informed.
Please keep this updated. I just got an EV beetle, and am trying to find how to upgrade it, and make it more useful. I have had a surprisingly amount of difficultly finding info online.
I absolutely want to see a budget Alibaba EV Beetle. Maybe set up a gofundme to buy the kit? I would contribute to that.
(Although, given Torch’s history, this project might also require a gofundme to pay for the treatment of acid burns and chainsaw wounds resulting from this project… maybe don’t do this unless TheAutopian offers good health insurance?)
ads that interrupt my rigorous and unforgiving pornography-seeking web browsing: ads featuring old air-cooled Volkswagen Beetles
I have to admit my assumption was that ads featuring old air-cooled Volkswagen Beetles was your preferred choice in porn…
I hate carbs, so…why not? Team Why Not?
I agree. Carburetor is a french word which means, “Leave it alone.”
As Hot Rod’s David Freiburger is so fond of saying, “Don’t get it right, just get it running.” This would get it running, so you could take all the time you need to eventually get it right again. Go for it. Plus it’d be good content.
ChangBeEV time
What’s a Beetle without fweem?
It’s not a good idea, but it is an interesting one.
…and THAT is the very definition of an Autopian Project.
Ever since the chainsaw to remove batteries of the chang li i am thinking keep Torch away from EVs.
Just keep his demented ass away from chainsaws…
I’m still really on the fence about conversion kits for classic cars….I really feel like you’re killing the soul and character of a car if you do. I understand it’s more reliable and cheaper on fuel, of course, but the unique sound and engagement of driving a manual are part of what makes the Beetle a Beetle. 🙁
Except this mounts to the transaxle! So you’re still driving a manual.
Well, probably not. Shifting a transmission with an electric motor in front of it is gonna be a lot different from an engine. Also, there’s no clutch. Also, depending on the horsepower of your motor, you don’t even need to shift.
Except you’d stick it in like…3rd gear and then just leave it there because an electric motor would have the torque to not require traditional shifting making the manual redundant and therefore taking away the charm of driving an original Beetle as I mentioned, unfortunately 🙁
From what I can tell in the photos, it looks as if you remove the transmission and the motor/inverter comes integrated with a single speed reduction ratio with the requirement of using custom half shafts? That would explain a top speed of only 55 mph, when the motor makes 15 kW continuous and 55 kW peak.
My electric Triumph GT6 conversion retains its manual transmission AND clutch. It was necessary to have good performance because my car uses a small/inefficient series-wound DC motor, and I need to keep from destroying the motor with excessive current. 0-45 mph acceleration is about 2.5-3 seconds when starting in 2nd gear and not shifting anything. I can start off in 4th gear if I like, but if I want maximum performance, I have to go through all the gears and pay attention to the tachometer when I shift, starting in 1st. I need a limited slip differential because the thing goes sideways in ANY gear when I mash the accelerator to the floor at a stop, including 4th, but once the tires hook up, whatever gear I’m in makes a massive difference to acceleration, 1st being the fastest. If I do away with the clutch, I will lose a massive amount of performance because the transmission will be extremely selective about when it will allow me to change gears, but it could be done if wanted.
Eventually, I will do away with the transmission and upgrade to a Tesla Model 3 system. But I haven’t had enough time to finish my projects, and the current order of business is to upgrade my custom built microcar/”bicycle” to be able to exceed 100 mph. Because I am going to hoon the crap out of that thing, and it costs almost nothing to run.
I generally agree with you, but I have actually considered an EV conversion for my ’76 Beetle (actually, I would probably buy a second one and keep my ’76 stock). I like driving my Beetle quite a lot, but more torque and better drivability would be nice for daily use. I use my Leaf for most of my daily driving needs – an EV Beetle would be a nice replacement for that car.
Where’s the podcast? Is it not Wednesday? Can I talk to your manager? If that podcast isn’t ready for my commute I’m going to just stare ahead in silence, angry.
If its reversible go for it! You can pull the engine, and rebuild it inside at your own pace while you enjoy the beetle again. In my industry we call that killing two birds with one stone. Plus it’s more interesting content for me and other Jasonians to read.
I agree here. As longs as it’s reversible, and the site is paying for it, I say go for it!
However!
Please Torch, please wait until DT is at least on this continent. Preferably, staning right next to you so we can keep you safe. Or maybe some other ADULT SUPERVISION? Is Otto available?
Gosh, dunno, between the unfortunate propensity of vintage air-cooled VWs for burning down if people don’t replace the old fuel hoses running directly above the engine and the utter sketchiness of such cheap electrical systems on offer from potentially fly-by-night vendors this might be a case of quite literally jumping out of the frying pan into the fire…
Sketchy HV systems are a hard nope for me.
Could it be worse than working on a Changli? It might be more fun if you could use someone else’s car as the guinea pig, but what the hey, go for it.
“Here’s two 1970s-era kits…”
Two more, one from Frizzell’s Electric Transportation and the other from Lyman Electric Products (a division of Lyman Metal Products):
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52360500773_84a3c276cc_o.jpg
Lyman also offered complete cars but I’ve had a hard time finding out much about them beyond running across a few iterations of this Pinto ad:
https://assets.rebelmouse.io/media-library/pinto-1-jpg.jpg?id=30903246
I’ve got a Lyman Electric Quad and a few of their small novelty items but I’d love to track down one of their VW or Pinto conversions.
I feel like you should attempt to get Beau to fund this idea as it is a gold mine for article after article for the website!
The kidney transplant ad was because you mentioned looking for a 3rd kidney to sell in your GTI article.
Alibaba is a total game of Russian Roulette. Sometimes its ok. Other times its awful.You really wanna’ trust your life with some no-name, who-know-what-quality kit from China while zipping down the freeway?
I doubt a 20 HP motor is going to do much zipping on a freeway, that’s not much more than a golf cart has.
Are you kidding? He’ll be burning up the tarmac (and anything else in range, along with himself, any passengers…).
I did a little detective work, and took a screen capture of the motor/inverter specs:
https://i.imgur.com/hBsZyea.jpg
15 kW continuous according to the vendor at Alibaba, but 55 kW peak according to the datasheet.
Just don’t cut the batteries to fit with a chainsaw
But the cut off ends are the perfect size and shape to throw into the ocean!
(Please don’t do this. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/throwing-car-batteries-into-the-ocean)
The memes on that site used to have a story behind them, with the (however crazy) logic and origin story. This one, however, just jumps directly into the insanity, like a battery onto the ocean.
What worries me the most is that I don’t think this is the fault of the website, but memes are becoming so inscrutable that soon we’ll be talking about Darmok at Tanagra in day to day conversation.
When the walls fell.
Yes, yes, and yes. Please do this with one of these cheap kits. It sounds like a
terriblegreat idea and totally appropriate for this site.