China is the biggest market for electric cars in the world. It has the most domestic electric automakers. Three of their battery companies make approximately half of all the electric car batteries used on this planet. One of those three companies is BYD, which is also the biggest maker of electric and hybrid cars on the globe (yes, bigger than Tesla). They just debuted the BYD Seagull, an electric car that starts at $11,000, and I think it’s the first EV that’s both extremely cheap and something truly suitable for a global audience. That’s a big deal.
People Want Inexpensive Cars, Not Cheap Ones
The extremely cheap car has been a fantasy for roughy the last 125 years, with the Curved Dash Olds probably earning the title of the first truly “economy car” with a price tag of $650, or about $24,000 adjusted for inflation. While not cheap, another reasonable turn-of-the-century car would probably be a Packard that cost about four times as much. When the Ford Model T went into production it cost around $1,000 in 1908 money, though mass production allowed them to actually lower that price over time until the Model T dropped to less than $400, or about $10,000 in 2023 dollars.
Many other cars followed this same model, with varying degrees of success. In particular, the Volkswagen Beetle proved to be just enough car for just enough people for many decades (it was about $1,600 in 1968 or $14,000 today), which is how Volkswagen sold more than 23 million of them globally, making it the best selling car in history. It’s long been the assumption that a cheap car from somewhere else would come in and spread across the globe in the same way as the Beetle, but the reality is nothing has quite had the right blend of style, value, and fun.
I remember when the Tata Nano debuted in 2008. There were all these excited accounts of how this $2,500 Indian-built car would change the future of automotive. It would get 52 MPG! It would be cheap! It could fit a small family!
It failed. Badly. Why? This Autoweek article sums it up quite nicely: “The Tata Nano failed because nobody aspires to own a cheap car”
It couldn’t really compete with scooters and motorbikes when it came to extreme rupee-pinching, while a nicer used car with more features and a more premium badge on the front could be had for a similar outlay. And compared to slightly more expensive, yet still relatively affordable, competitors like the Datsun Go or Renault Kwid: The Nano comes off very much like it was built to a specific, and low, price point. The Go and the Kwid may not be paragons of luxury (or safety), but they do a little bit better job of dressing up their fundamental frugality.
It’s why Jason’s Changli, while being the cheapest electric car you can buy, is not something everyone would necessarily desire to own. Most people don’t want to have to use a chainsaw to fix their car.
China Already Has A Cheaper EV You Wouldn’t Buy
The best selling electric car in China is the approximately $5,000 Wuling Mini EV. It’s a cute, tiny car with about 27 horsepower and enough range to take you 75 miles. For a little more cash you can get a long range, high-speed version that’ll go a whopping 62 mph and can even stretch to 175 miles. For a city car that’s totally adequate.
As much as the curious autojournalist in me would love for these to be sold here, it’s unlikely most reasonable consumers in places like America or Germany would buy such a small car–it has a 76-inch wheelbase, which is a hair longer than a Smart ForTwo, but is as much as half a foot narrower than the Smart.
So, we can fantasize about a city full of Mini EVs in the same way we can desire Japanese kei cars. It’s a great fantasy. Because Wuling is partially owned by General Motors, if they wanted to bring it here, in theory, they could. That they won’t and have not tells you all you need to know.
The BYD Seagull Is Inexpensive But Not Cheap
We’ll continue to learn more about the BYD Seagull as they start going out to journalists, but reports from Shanghai’s auto show this week make it sound like it has the ideal balance of capability, performance, style, and thrift. I’ll start with performance and price, because those are fairly objective measures.
The Seagull, according to reports, comes in two variants. The base version costs 78,800 RMB (or $11,400) and comes with a 75 horsepower motor that can get the car up to 80 mph. More impressively, the vehicle can go up to 305 km on the Chinese range cycle, or 189 miles. That number could be lower if measured on the EPA scale, but it’s still impressive.
Arguably, the 95,800 RMB ($14,000) version is an even better value on paper. For just a few grand more there’s a 38 kWh lithium iron phosphate battery that gets 405 km of range, or about 250 miles. Both can use DC charging to charge up to 80% in a reported 30 minutes.
It’s not super small either, with a wheelbase of approximately 98.4 inches and a length of 148 inches. That wheelbase is approximately what you’d get in the last generation of five-door Ford Fiesta sold here, though it’s a few inches shorter. Again, we’re not talking about an SUV here, but it’s not impractically tiny. Think of it as a Fiat Panda, basically.
Those are the objective measures. Subjectively, I think the car looks like a totally fine car to own. It was styled by Wolfgang Egger, who you might know as the guy gorgeous Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione. Egger also worked at Lamborghini and Audi and there’s definitely something Lambo-esque about the front headlights. Overall, the use of a blacked-out c/d-pillar, the darkly-colored five-spoke wheels, and the body sculpting give it an aesthetic that can work in any market.
While the Seagull’s interior isn’t extremely complex, it has all the features people expect out of a normal car, with seating for four or five individuals. The car offers a digital display above the attractive flat-bottomed steering wheel and a 12.8-inch infotainment system in the middle for the driver/passenger. There’s also a wireless charging pad for people who go in for that sort of thing. If there’s anything that might limit its popularity abroad it’s that it only has two cupholders.
The Seagull Already Looks Like A Hit
This was referenced in The Morning Dump today, but it’s worth highlighting this excellent and punny headline from Reuters: “Shanghai auto show crowds flock to BYD’s Seagull.” Get it? Super hoping this is a reference to English new wave band Flock of Seagulls. Here’s what they said:
At the Shanghai auto show this week, the largest crowds can be found around an unassuming, bright yellow hatchback parked at the booth of China’s largest electric carmaker BYD.
“It’s my kind of car, it’s suitable for driving to and from work, and you don’t need to manage anything, just use the battery … it’s also a relatively low cost product,” said Fan Yuhong, 28, a visitor to the fair who works in advertising and was among those at the booth.
[…]
Bill Russo, the Shanghai-based founder and CEO of strategic advisory firm Automobility, predicts the Seagull will become the best selling car in China within six months of its launch.
While it’s impossible to perfectly predict will or will not sell, I think Russo’s prediction sounds reasonable. BYD’s Song, available as a regular gas-powered car, hybrid or full EV, is already China’s best selling car, and the EV version of that costs around $28,000. This is less car, but it’s also more than half as much. Building something that’s more car than a Mini EV but cheaper than a Song seems like a no-brainer.
BYD has announced plans to expand its small footprint in Europe to sell across most major markets, focusing on slightly higher-end electric cars and crossovers with longer ranges than European and American companies at more affordable prices. Could something like the Seagull follow? Absolutely.
The thing with electric motors is that it doesn’t take a lot of HP to provide reasonable acceleration because of the instant and high torque ratings. 75HP probably feels pretty quick around town in this size of car. I’d buy something like this for commuting or for a teen that doesn’t need to be going on long road trips.
Our 330e only has a 112HP electric motor, so when it’s in EV only mode it’s only using that motor and the 0-60 is like 12 seconds with a top speed of 87 mph. But the torque will still throw you back in your seat a little from a stop and the 0-30 mph feels pretty fast (I should time it sometime). It’s not quite as fast as my Volt was in EV mode, but it’s kind of the best of both worlds, since I can use both motors to get a 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, but all our commutes and school drop offs are in EV mode. A smaller electric motor feels pretty fast for city driving and you can do an occasional freeway trip when needed.
With a name like that, I want to be able to fly over things and poop on them.
But I would buy it, yes.
“The BYD Seagull is the gull that WON’T steal your french fries!”
Um, I’d buy it.
This, this is the kind and price EV that I want. My masculinity is not so fragile that I need an EV that can tow 40000 lbs. up a 25% grade for a 1000 miles on a single charge 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year.
I know it’s how headlines are written nowadays but there is 0% chance I’d want to own something like this. It’s tiny and underpowered. I’m not looking for a F250, but I’ve driven larger, more powerful golf carts.
Meh for a commuter I would go for it if it’s not terrible to drive. I like tiny cars.
This is yet another almost-but-not-quite EV solution. While many aspire to something like this, the truth is that a used ICE car is a better answer for many Americans. The used market obliterates content and brand differences, so a loaded Lincoln or Lexus costs the same as a young Kia Rio or a pristine Grand Am. 11-14 k buys a pretty damn nice Lexus.
And just above this market level, plug-in hybrids are starting to look pretty useful. The ability to putz around town on pure electric and then seamlessly transition to an ICE road-trip warrior is just too practical to pass up. For what I do, the new Prius Prime looks like the killer app.
The Prius Prime can look like the killer app all day. That doesn’t mean a thing.
Try to find one for sale. That’s a tall order already. Then try to find one for a decent price. It’s nearly impossible.
I don’t see the Seagull coming to the US market. The Smart left as with almost all small cars. However, I do see the BYD Song coming to the US in some form at around ~$24K. I mean it would go up against our current compact CUVs, right?
Note that the range figure is CLTC, which would be something like 35% higher than the EPA range.
That’d mean EPA range would be more like 300 km, or 186 mi. Still, for $14,000 (plus tariffs, plus import costs…), it could make some sense.
It’s not a pickup. Hard pass.
A case of beer, a Sawzall with a few extra blades and a weekend without other plans will solve that.
(Seagull drives by)
People begin squawking “Mine, Mine, Mine!”
BYD already is selling up a storm into Australia and I know that the local distributor has signed up for the next size up Dolphin.
However, I think they’ve ruled out the Seagull for precisely the reason that the Tata Nano lost out to the Datson Go and Renault Kwid…for a little bit more money, you get a lot more car.
And for anyone wondering, the current BYD Atto3 that we get gets a five out of five star safety rating under the EuroANCAP vehicle safety system. So it’s considered safer than some of the few North American made cars that are still sold in the rest of the world…
I think you meant that it is less car, but it also cost less than half as much
Clearly he meant it’s three quarters as much.
He meant the car is more than half as much because it costs exactly half than the car it was being compared to but doesn’t feel like it’s half as good.
Is there any data that compares Chinese-made cars to US-market ones in terms of longevity, reliability, and safety?
It’ll collapse in crash testing against a rickshaw.
… TluCoat option avairable?
250 miles from 38 kWh seems dubious.
I have to say the pro-China/Chinese automakers slant of the articles lately has been disappointing too. I don’t think it should be controversial to say that this *shouldn’t* be a vehicle or company we want to succeed here. If we can make the space every day to talk about Elon Musk tweeting something insensitive, I think we can acknowledge how much the CCP sucks.
Looking at the car, considering its battery pack size, assuming it has GM Bolt-like aerodynamics, real-world US range would probably be closer to 160 miles. I suppose 250 miles range would be possible at a steady 45 mph.
They like shitty cars here.
I think this is more a passion for the concept of a genuinely affordable EV runabout, which would be a very useful vehicle for a lot of people. If any western manufacturer would like to take a stab at the high volume/low cost EV concept, then I’m sure this site wouldn’t much care about the *BYD Seagull.
*I’m really, really, really skeptical about Chinese brands being able to sell cars to an extremely brand conscious American market. “Build Your Dreams Seagull”? Really? I mean, I’m into it for being bizarre, but in my experience, if I like something, it’s probably going to be an absolute sales flop.
This exactly. I have no passion for this specific car, I just desperately want something that meets these needs.
(Also, agreed on the brand thing…. I can’t imagine it selling unless they re-brand for this market.)
Genuinely curious what need is met by this that can’t be met with a used (or new with tax credit) Bolt or Leaf?
This is a $14K car. A new base model Bolt and Leaf are both going to be thousands over that, even if you qualify for the entire $7.5K.
So buy a used one?
I know you aren’t one of the people who chant “USED ONLY” all the time. A new car has value over a used one, especially in a market like this. You’d have to take a leap of faith with this, but at least 14k on a new piece of shit isn’t a tremendous risk versus 14k on something that might be half dead.
You’re right, I’m not.
But I would 100% take my chances on a used vehicle from a known manufacturer over a brand new unproven Chinese brand.
And that would be a fair argument against it. But sometimes it’s worth the risk for some people, i.e. Hyundai in the 90’s.
BYD has been around for 28 years and in the auto industry for 21 years, so it’s not exactly “brand new”.
That’s why you shell out a hundred fifty bucks to an unbiased mechanic for a complete inspection of your potential used car purchase.
You’re changing the goalposts and missing the point. It’s a $14K new EV. Those do not exist in the US. Not even close. Being excited about that does not mean the article has a “pro-China slant.”
Try buying a new Bolt? Right now the only inventory being offered are new leases for $500 a month with $5k down. That’s just insulting. I’m not sure about Leaf inventory.
I agree in general though, although some people just want to buy new.
Bolt is more pricey, and Leaf (which I am still considering) are hard to find in good shape in this price range. Plus the range is less.
It’s not just this article though.
It’s the dismissive tone in the series of Morning Dumps about the battery factory in Virginia/Michigan, implying anyone who doesn’t support it wholeheartedly is wrong. It’s the seemingly openly wishing for Chinese brands to start selling here.
As for this car, is it really any better/cheaper than a Bolt or Leaf after tax credits? This obviously wouldn’t be eligible. Americans haven’t bought a lot of cheap EV runabouts in the past (every EV prior to Tesla, 1st gen Leaf, etc). I just don’t see it happening.
The amount of people who say they want to buy a $15,000 car new is a lot higher than the number of people who would actually buy it over a used model of a better car. See: basically every cheap car on the market the last decade plus.
Now that the used market is totally bananas? Do you really think people wouldn’t be interested in a 15k car right now? I know a number of people who absolutely would. And with manufacturers continuing to prefer high profit per unit versus going for volume, the used car market isn’t going to get much better in the near future.
The trend of bulbous and luxurious cars isn’t necessarily going away, but that doesn’t mean there’s zero business case for something towards the bottom of the market. Make it something that is inexpensive and doesn’t look like it was designed to actively make you hate your life (see small American cars from the 90’s that seemingly existed only to force you to level-up) and I’m sure it could be at least somewhat successful.
The battery plant has been interesting because it’s finally an opportunity where the tides have turned, China being forced to bring their tech to the U.S. instead of the opposite. I’m not suggesting that care shouldn’t be taken with that arrangement, but the idea that this country has been cool with taking our I.P. and shipping it all out to China along with manufacturing jobs, but not being ok with the battery plant? Bizarre.
Idk man, cheap cars have been dropping like flies because people aren’t buying them. The Mitsubishi Mirage is not exactly flying off the shelves at $15K or thereabouts.
Used cars being better than ever has changed the market calculus. I think a lot of enthusiasts who like cheap cars mistook necessity for passion among their buyers. Very few are out there actively seeking something cheap. The typical consumer just wants the best value for their $15-20K; that used to mean a new econobox, but is increasingly a used model of a nicer car.
I get the logic, but I hope it changes. I know far too many people taking 5 year old loans on 6 year old cars that are going to be in a tough spot when they could have bought something more thrifty and new for the same price. Again, this calculus was far different when an Accord off-lease was like, 17k.
The mileage claim is bunk. That’s basically the same range as an SR+ Model 3 with over 50kWh battery capacity, and much better aero.
Of course it is. It’s wonderful and fantastic and unbelievable, until you actually order and take delivery of one, and shame on you* for getting fooled.
*[Chinese business philosophy holds that if you are sold less than you honestly expected, it’s your fault.]
Even if the articles don’t get into the overarching political/economic warfare being waged by the CCP, which is perhaps beyond what this site should get into, they could at least analyze the claims beyond face-value.
There is no way that 250 mile claim matches the actual EPA rated range. It’s apples and oranges.
As has been stated, anyone who has bought anything from Alibaba/AliExpress (shame on me), I’m willing to bet has been almost 100% disappointed in what they got, versus what they thought they were getting.
By the time you add in duties, plus 26% tariff and ocean transport, the sales price in the US will likely be 35% higher than the numbers shown. And with all of the recent saber rattling, it’s entirely foreseeable that we won’t be buying much of anything from China with a couple of years, if things continue to get ugly. For that money, I’d take a Bolt EUV with rebate. But it neither has the range I really need.
80mph theoretical max speed, when new, is a non-starter in the US.
Speed limit on many highways is 70 mph, but most cars go 75. Imagine trying to do 75 in the wind or in cold weather or after the battery has been used for a few years . . .
Also, this thing looks and is proportioned like a next-gen Chevy Sonic and we know how well the Sonic did. Nothing aspirational or attractive about this design, unlike say the Beetle, Mini, Golf, or Maverick.
Also, why is the Autopian running with this PR drivel? I’ve seen this same story parroted uncritically on a number of other car websites. C’mon, Matt.
Stop reading it and write your own then.
Calm down mate, just take a deep breath and calm down.
So Buffett vs Musk, cheaper labour vs gigacasting.. now we know why Musk was hyping up a cheaper car.
Hopefully it will be successful and not be an example which automotive executives bring up when their underlings want to bring a hatchback to NA market.
I can see this as a sales hit for Canadians though, LFP non withstanding and probably without a heatpump.
Musk thinks he can sell FSD to the cheaper cars to make them not cheap.
“It’s better to shift a large number of cars at lower margin and harvest that margin in the future as we perfect autonomy” – Elon Musk
Considering how long they’ve been working on autonomy and how far they’ve gotten with it, they will be no margin to harvest because today’s Tesla buyer will have moved on to another car by the time Tesla autonomy is perfected (unless they replace their current Tesla with another Tesla).
$16k for a 200 mile EV that isn’t a clapped out LEAF? That’s pretty darned good. Put it on stilts, add some cladding and call it a CUV. Seagull Flight or something. It will print money.
I’ve never understood why anybody would want that as a feature in a vehicle they intend to own.
But it’s always in the literature and commentary of auto-rags.
Why would you need a car that literally prints money?
It’s a good idea at first but in the end it’s most likely not legal tender.
Seems like an unnecessary drain on the 12v system to me. Not to mention the potential legal consequences if you get pulled over.
Have I got a deal for you! Invest in my DBC Coins! Printed in digital NFT PDF’s by my one of a kind totally legal* BYD Seagull Flight! This is a once in a lifetime opportunity you don’t want to miss!
*Legality pending. Not backed by FDIC. Investing can lose principal. For experienced investors only.
/s in case it’s not already obvious.
In 1998, James Worden demonstrated that his Solectria Sunrise compact could achieve a 373 mile range being hyper-miled in the Tour De Sol. Real world highway range was closer to 200 miles in normal driving conditions, using a 26 kWh battery. The car used advanced construction techniques for the time period, the car itself being a lightweight carbon fiber monocoque, and having a drag coefficient of only 0.17. In mass production, the designer claimed this would have been a $20,000 car back then.
The major U.S. automakers were not at all interested into refining this into a production ready vehicle. They were in fact hostile to the very idea. GM even sold its share of the patent for Energy Conversion Devices/Ovonics NiMH battery that the Sunrise used to Chevron, which promptly shelved the tech, resulting in subsequent threats to sue Panasonic for making their own NiMH battery for the RAV4 EV(which as a result, was pulled from the market). It wasn’t until lithium-based chemistries became readily available and relatively inexpensive that EVs became viable again, nearly a decade later.
The U.S. could have been 25 years ago where China is today. But the legacy manufacturers couldn’t see beyond the next quarterly report, or in the case where they could, they did not want to cannibalize the sales of existing cash cows or usher in a new paradigm of inexpensive, low maintenance, long-lasting electric vehicles.
Which takes us to today. If the Chinese ever figure out how to get this $14,000 long-range EV to pass existing “safety” regulations, they will be eating the legacy manufacturers’ lunch.
Chinese can pass safety regulations just fine, Chery makes a sub-$14k crossover with a 5-star EuroNCAP rating.
That Wuling Mini looks so cool 😀
Also, modern Chinese standards are similar to Euro standards.
Somebody needs to start selling inexpensive cars over here again. Everybody else left the segment, leaving a lot of room for the Chinese to come in.
Opportunities where a viable business case can be made, will be filled. It’s really only a matter of time.
Yeah…. I’ll want to see crash testing results on this one. Airbags don’t make a tin can safe, and given it’s range/battery capacity I’m betting on tin can.
If it can pass NCAP, ANCAP, etc. crash tests then it is fine, it will be a 5/5 star car. Chinese car manufacturing standards are moving upwards very, very fast.
BYD’s Atto3 has a 5-star Euro NCAP rating so chances are that the company will strive to make it safer than a tin can.
I could see that replacing my Fiesta eventually, which functions as a short trip back-up car mostly.
See, this is something I would buy, and actually use as my “doing the rounds to my various work locations, many of which have EV chargers” trips. I’d still keep my other vehicles for when I want a fun drive, but this would be a great thing to just have plugged in sitting in my driveway for quick trips like that. I’ve been debating getting a well-used nissan leaf for that purpose, but they got much harder to find cheaply once covid came a-knockin.