It’s not great that the existence of electric cars has become increasingly politicized, because we end up with situations like the one we had this week, where a somewhat impromptu and poorly planned trip in a rented Tesla Model Y from Fox Business News reporter Jeff Flock ends up in an exaggerated and misleading series of reports that feed the EV outrage machine. We don’t stand for that around these parts, especially since I did this same trip in a Lucid EV in just two stops this summer. Sure, the Lucid has more range especially when it’s warm, but still — it was a non-issue.
First off, here’s the rather hard-to-watch news segment that got us started down this path. It’s about a very straightforward and well-traveled route from Chicago to New York, something that Tesla drivers have been navigating for years.
The segment features ignorant talk about battery mining, and Ted Nugent shows up for some reason — seriously, this is bizarre:
The reporter who participated in the road trip, Flock, is a self-proclaimed EV fan and mostly keeps politics out of his report, thankfully. But if you read the main article about this (not written by Flock), it’s dripping with an agenda:
Fox Business’ Jeff Flock put Biden’s electric vehicle hype to the test, embarking on an 800-mile trip in a Tesla on Tuesday from Chicago to New York, documenting each charge along the way.
His expedition comes as the White House and more than a dozen Democrat-run states push to accelerate America’s clean transportation future. However, the initiative has sparked concerns for long-distance drivers.
This underlined bit is, I think, a reference to the Inflation Reduction Act and the California Air Resource Board’s EV mandate, which has been copied by other states, though not all of those states have Democratic governors so I’m not entirely sure how accurate that statement is. The graphic they use for the first TV hit of this trip is more telling:
As the reporter admits in his own written piece, the amount of money he spent relative to gasoline was a wash, so I’m not sure how he’s “losing green” exactly, and Consumer Reports and others have estimated the fuel cost savings for an EV to be about 60% compared to a gas-powered, but public charging is more expensive than private charging and gas in Ohio, along the route, is particularly cheap at the moment (I was just there doing a drive a couple of weeks ago), so it’s possible that an EV could cost the same (or even more) to road trip, depending on a bunch of factors.
As Flock admits himself, this trip could have been better planned. It probably didn’t help that he apparently wasn’t very familiar with the vehicle, spending 15 minutes trying to figure out how to start it (the car was already on), and even calling it a “Model W.”
This Probably Wasn’t The Best Way To Do This
Flock’s report doesn’t include a lot of details, but based on the dual motor badge on the back of the Model Y in photos it means that he probably rented either a Long Range or Performance trim, which means 285-310 miles of likely range. My best guess is that it’s a Model Y Long Range.
He does say he used the Tesla map to determine where to start after setting off from Chicago in the EV he rented. In an ideal world, you’d want to charge the vehicle before you left on the trip, but maybe Flock was in a hurry and drove it from O’Hare, where he picked it up, to his family.
As you can see above, I mapped the trip using a 2020 Model Y Long Range and only Tesla Superchargers, and it ended up being about 16 hours and five stops, including an almost immediate 15-minute stop to top the car off. This route seems to keep you pretty much always on or near the Interstate, which is why I thought this sentence was weird:
Tesla’s software does a great job of routing you to superchargers, which are the fastest way to charge but may not be the fastest way to get where you’re going.
This is generally true, but for his trip, it shouldn’t be an issue, and it gets me with my biggest gripe with this kind of reporting. He says he stopped in Elyria, Ohio with just 38 miles of range and then went to a Supercharger in Sheffield, Ohio.
When we finished our first day and parked at our hotel in Elyria, Ohio, the vehicle said we had 38 miles of range remaining. When we started up the next morning, we had just 15 miles. The software routed us to the nearest supercharger in Sheffield, Ohio, and when we got there we had just 3% battery left. Whew.
As far as I can tell, Flock and his producer/camera operator started at 219 miles of charge and made it pretty easily to Elkhart (stop #1) and then drove 215 miles or so to Elyria, Ohio. It’s possible they waited to charge the car all the way up to the top. They also could have picked a hotel with a charger or charged during dinner (there are local chargers in Elyria), but instead the choice was made to park the car nearly empty and then they forced themselves to drive out of the way a bit to charge in Sheffield.
Flock sort of admits this:
And in fairness to Tesla, we departed from their route to get dinner the first night, which took our charge down lower than they would recommend.
Ok, fine, it then took them four more stops to get home. That seems high but, if you’re worried about running out of range, it makes a little sense, though because he only wants to stop at Tesla chargers he confusingly admits in one video that he only goes 87 miles at one point in between charges (from Sheffield, Ohio, to Girard, Ohio). It’s also winter and the reporter talks about losing range, which is definitely an issue when driving when it’s cold outside, but if he did lose 46 miles of range, I can’t imagine a scenario where he couldn’t have just driven another 40 or so miles to the Supercharger in Grove City, PA or, even, the closer one in Hermitage, PA.
However, there’s a better way to do this. If you stop at the very convenient Electrify America station in West Unity, Ohio (we realize that EA stations aren’t always the best), this trip can probably be done in just four stops, which is how I think many experienced EV roadtrippers would do it. You need an adapter, and it’s not clear if the rental had one, but anyone who owned one of these cars would likely own an adapter. Is this drive possible in the winter? I think so, but as the reporter experienced, cold weather can negatively impact range.
After all this, here’s how Flock sums it up:
My biggest takeaway: if you stick to their route you’re good. If you prefer a more spontaneous excursion involving exploration off the route, you had better be good at planning.
The good news is that being better at planning than Flock seems to be a low bar to clear.
Fox Business News And Fox News Seem To Add Two Charging Stops That Didn’t Happen
Here’s the weirdest thing, Flock says that he made six stops. If you read the report written by the network, or if you unfortunately watched the wacky Ted Nugent segment at the top of this article, it was suddenly eight stops? From the report:
Throughout the trip, he made eight stops to charge the car and watched the efficiency drop after each stop.
And here’s a screenshot from that segment, The BIG Weekend show, with an anchor and random panelists talking about how bad they think EVs are:
The reality is, yes, of course, renting a Tesla from Hertz for a long-distance road trip is going to take longer. We didn’t need a segment to prove that. It’s possible to make this trip slower than it should be if you really have no idea what you’re doing, take random excursions, and don’t plan at all. The eight stops thing, though, appears to be a mistake from the Fox Business News reporter that was then repeated on Fox News for some reason.
Anyway, it’s all dumb.
“Jeff Flock ends up in an exaggerated and misleading series of reports that feed the EV outrage machine. “
Meh… it’s just more of the same bullshit from the anti-BEV crowd that has been going on ever since the Tesla Model S went on sale.
The tidbit I’m taking away from this is that apparently when you rent an EV from Hertz it doesn’t come fully charged up. Or at least, you’d better make sure it does before driving off.
Hertz… LET’S GO! … directly to the charger.
I’ve rented from Hertz a lot and had a few EV’s now. They used to not charge you for bring it back with almost no range. They only have small Level 2 EVSE’s on site and most rental locations only have 3-4 on hand (the exception being La Guardia Hertz, where they have over 3 rows of Tesla travel chargers on hand). So you would reserve a Tesla and if it was full, lucky you, if not? Go and charge it!
They now charge a $20 “Recharging Fee” if you don’t bring it back with the same level you left with. This past weekend I rented a Model 3 SR from Orlando and it had 90% on the battery. I charged it at a nearby Supercharger on the way back to the airport to 95% and it only cost me $5. It has gotten a lot better as of late, especially with Hertz now adding in Polestar 2’s and Mach-E’s to their fleet!
While I did not dig into this with the obsession you have, it seems like they got an electric vehicle drove it and reported accurately their experience. I whole heartedly agree with them that government should stay out of it. People will buy electric cars when they feel they suit their needs and provide better value than ICE cars. We did not need the government to ply people away from horses into cars, it happened organically as the market dictated.
I can respect that view.
Yes, but we weren’t in the midst of a climate crisis with the transition from horses, which the ICE cars could help remedy.
Well horse shit and piss was a sever problem in congested cities that ICE cars could help remedy.
You’re not wrong, if only the exhaust of all the ICE vehicles built up as fast as horse shit did. The shit coming out of cars isn’t tangible, so it doesn’t exist.
I’m only disappointed in the lack of Ted Nugent puns in the Autopian article..
Fuck him too.
Clearly an agenda with this report, but just the fact that news segments and articles are still dedicated to how to best plan out your trip with an EV is evidence enough that they aren’t quite there yet. God forbid you deviate from the interstate to get a meal. You have to follow their carefully prescribed route and tailor your food and lodging decisions to maximize charger availability. They are touted as luxury cars, but constantly worrying about range is NOT luxury. I just feel like the current crop of EVs is going to look like an absolute joke in a few years with how things are advancing. In the meantime, give me a PHEV.
“Clearly an agenda with this report, but just the fact that news segments and articles are still dedicated to how to best plan out your trip with an EV is evidence enough that they aren’t quite there yet”
…IF the person is a moron who can’t handle the slightest bit of change.
Just saw on Reddit about things Americans do that non-americans will not understand. One of the answers was how the News are done over here, more of a entertaining industry than actual News to report.
Leave my XL drinks alone lol
MSNBC, Fox, CNN, CBS, Wikipedia, Facebook, ect. are all in the same tier as InfoWars and the smaller alternative media outlets, as far as I’m concerned. NEVER take any of them at face value. In fact, the latter sometimes reports things that are true that the former omit completely. But in order to know what is and isn’t true, you have to do your own research and decide for yourself. Most people don’t have time for that sadly, and that’s by design…
On top of that, everyone is in a race to get the story out. It is better to be first than accurate these days.
And since hardly anyone reads past the headline or sound bite, once it’s out there, it’s OUT THERE, whether they correct the story or not.
And if you’re first, every other outlet copies your headline and article almost word for word. Pick any headline and do a Google search for it and you will likely find 15-20 versions that are almost identical.
This is a terrible take. They all have agendas, true, but some outlets are far worse than others, especially when it comes to outright lies.
I’d say the alternative media outlets are the less-dishonest of the bunch. But pick your poison.
I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion when, for example, Alex Jones lost a massive defamation lawsuit because of his blatant lies. As did Fox News, for that matter. These people are provably more dishonest than any other mainstream news outlet.
Unprovoked attack in the Gulf of Tonkin? Saddam has WMDs in Iraq and secret links to Al Qaeda? Glyphosate is safe for human consumption? The NSA isn’t spying on our phone calls/emails and that is a “conspiracy theory”? 2 weeks to flatten the curve? Julian Assange is not a journalist?
All lies heavily propagated by mainstream “news” journalists that generally knew they were lying.
“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.” ~Thomas Jefferson
There is a difference between news media that doesn’t always know all the facts and propaganda outlets masquerading as news. One way to tell is whether you need to reach back years for examples or just hours.
Do I trust CNN or NYT to always be telling me 100% of the truth? No. Do I know Fox News is a partisan mouthpiece of the Republican Party? Yes.
There’s plenty of partisan mouthpieces for the Democratic Party too, as well as “alternative” mouthpieces that spew lies just the same. If there’s a dollar to be made on the grift, grifters will do what they can to get it. Pick your poison…
Yes there are. And there are legitimate news organizations. Fallible, corruptible, like all human endeavors, but sincerely intending to report news. Fox, Infowars (OMG really?), Newsmax etc are not that.
Neither are CNN, CBS, or MSNBC, Google, Facebook, and so-called “fact check” outlets. They’re all after the same thing: money. Facts are secondary to this.
Further, any facts that interfere with their sponsors’ financial motivations will almost always be omitted, no matter the importance to the public interest.
Legitimate news organizations? I’d say The Autopian is one of very few. It too is motivated by money, but isn’t receiving its funding from the largest moneyed institutions to ever exist, at least not yet… They are few and far between, and for all practical purposes, non-existent when it comes to any issue that is politically charged.
I can’t tell if you really don’t see the difference between imperfect news and intentional propaganda, or are just trying to justify consuming propaganda. But “I watch InfoWars because I know CBS News is corporate lies” is not making the statement you think it is.
I am not a regular watcher of InfoWars or CBS News. I lump them in the same category of infotainment because that’s about all they’re good for(albeit InfoWars is more entertaining, mostly because Alex Jones is a total assclown).
I read books and watch documentaries for most things, or look through studies when I have the time to do so. But even then…
OK, now I can tell which one it is.
America doesn’t have news or entertainment any more. We have political commentary 24/7/365.
2024 is a leap year, so: 24/7/366
When they were getting sued by Dominion (voting machines), Fox’s defense in court was that they were not news, but an entertainment channel.
And people say they only tell lies.
I read half the article and didn’t even bother with the video. Stuff like this isn’t going to sway most people, I feel most people (not all) have already made their decision on if they want electric or not.
Personally, despise the idea of an electric vehicle. No judgement for those that like and enjoy them but I have absolutely zero interest.
I think electric is a fine way to propel a vehicle down the road. To think that they are the second coming of Christ and need to be inserted into all applications is moronic.
“Personally, despise the idea of an electric vehicle”
Why?
It’s absolutely just a personal preference, I don’t feel the same draw or appeal that I get from an ICE setup. Plus the older I get the less interested I am in technology, hell I only have an iPhone because my company provided it.
Please don’t post political articles here. I come here to get away from that.
don’t click it?
I gotta agree with Angry Bob. You obviously can’t separate politics and the automotive industry completely, but this is the news. Of course it’s going to be inaccurate, or not tell the whole story, or try to make it fit an agenda. I could see if this article was about Motor Trend or C&D doing something similar, but honestly what do you expect out of Fox News? We’re not exactly breaking new ground here.
It’s clear The Autopian is a leftest organization that for the most part keeps that separate from their content. They failed here.
If pointing out absurd partisan propaganda is wrong, I don’t wanna be right.
k
k
“a leftist organization”? What makes this auto blog/organization leftist? (I do mean that as a sincere question and not snark.)
As I stated earlier for the most part they keep their personal politics out of their content, thankfully, but every once in a while a little slips through and it always leans left. I unfortunately have not kept a log and I am simply relying on my own observation and memory
I disagree. I want the Autopian to continue to be a counter-voice against anti-BEV bullshit.
aka, fact checkers. I agree. We need this.
Better ways of doing things do not need The Autopian to be a cheerleader. Better ways of doing things always succeed.
And what exactly is that “Better Way” you speak of?
Whatever the consumers decide
That’s irrelevant nor is that a “better way” of countering anti-BEV bullshit.
What you’re saying implies that that you want anti-BEV lies to stand uncontested and then have consumers make decisions based on those lies.
Fuck that…
k
Honest sincere question. Do you watch Fox News?
no
The Fox segment was an inaccurate hit piece but like most disinformation it has kernels of truth. Ignoring or belittling these downsides only feeds the narrative that the government/media is pushing a bad solution. EVs have many attractive qualities but I believe these real tradeoffs are contributing to the slowing adoption of EVs. I am an EV advocate but there’s no way I would buy one if I drove frequent long trips or didn’t have a home charger.
Charging at fast chargers has become expensive, sometimes more than the currently cheap gasoline.
Road-tripping in an EV is a logistics project and will cause unnecessary stops and delays.
Cold weather and fast highway driving will seriously lower vehicle range.
EV chargers other than Superchargers are suspect and should be avoided if possible.
great take! I had a similar thought reading through theAutopian article.
and honestly, the fox reporter’s trip is probably similar to an average layman attempting the trip. Most people aren’t going to be as well versed in the range changes, logistics, and charging issues to prepare for them. I think we forget that as automotive enthusiasts sometimes.
Man walks into the doctor’s office, raises his arm above his head, and says “Doc, it hurts when I do this.” Doctor says “Don’t do that.”
EVs are not ideal for roadtrips from Chicago to New York, so don’t do that. Meanwhile, 80% of Americans live in urban areas, and commute (for the time being) for less than 1 hour a day. That’s PLENTY of market space for enough EVs to maintain momentum on charging network buildout.
I’m just confused by the fact that many, probably most, Americans don’t buy vehicles that are designed to do the thing those Americans use those vehicles to do. No, you’re not carrying drywall on the reg (and it won’t fit into that truck anyway). No, you don’t have a boat. No, you don’t roam the wilderness of the Pacific Northwest. No, you don’t drive from Chicago to New York often enough to make that the key decider when it’s vehicle purchase time. You’re driving 30 minutes to work, 30 minutes back, and stopping by CVS twice a week. Get the EV.
“Despite the increase in the urban population, urban areas, defined as densely developed residential, commercial, and other nonresidential areas, now account for 80.0% of the U.S. population, down from 80.7% in 2010. … The rural population — the population in any areas outside of those classified as urban — increased as a percentage of the national population from 19.3% in 2010 to 20.0% in 2020.”
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/urban-rural-populations.html
“A new report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau shows the average one-way commute in the United States increased to a new high of 27.6 minutes in 2019. ”
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html
It’s because people have gotten used to having their cake and eating it. It is also a function of many people not being able to afford multiple cars for all their use cases which is just getting worse with car prices nowadays. They want one that does it all. Also, people in general don’t like to be told by others what they need. I get it. Most would be well served by an EV for most of their driving, but there are still real lifestyle changes and compromises with EVs. PHEVs and regular hybrids are where it’s at right now. They can do everything people need right now, but everyone is so obsessed with full EVs that we are leaving a big opportunity on the table to lower our consumption.
All your facts don’t change the real world fact that EVs suck for apartment dwellers who have to go find an expensive charger several times a week and if they charge all the way it degrades their battery. And EVs suck for the occasional long trip. Some people are willing to work around this, many are not.
EVs are really good for commuters who have a garage and a second vehicle. If that was my scenario I would buy one immediately. Instead I will probably get an PHEV. People are not stupid. They know what they have and what they are willing to accept and telling them the statistics about other people won’t change that.
Many larger employers in my area are installing banks of Level 2 chargers that employees are allowed to use free of charge during work. That helps somewhat, but apartment complexes also need to install Level 2 charge capability. I was just recently staying at a condo resort where they had two Level 2 chargers built into each carport (carports were capable of holding 4 vehicles), which I think would be a great *start* for apartment complexes.
Well, if I’m not talking to those people then I’m not talking to those people. If your arm hurts when you lift it over your head then I’m not making you lift your arm over your head. But there are 132 million households in America. 80% of that is 105 million urban households. Somewhere in there are SO many households which could make good use of an EV – in the real world. There are SO few households who drive from Chicago to New York regularly, so media can stop counting them as reasons to vote to overturn the Inflation Reduction Act.
I live in an apartment and I park on the street, so I don’t have an EV. I hope someday I’ll have something like a GTI’d ID. 2. I’m looking forward to the infrastructure build out so that there are chargers at the parking spots I use overnight.
All of which is going to happen. I’d rather it be US industry that makes all of that happen rather than Chinese, and I think it makes sense that we have national industrial policy to encourage that. At one point there were zero miles of macadam road in the US, and things seem to have worked out. Gotta start somewhere, so let’s get to it.
“I’m just confused by the fact that many, probably most, Americans don’t buy vehicles that are designed to do the thing those Americans use those vehicles to do.”
That’s an American thing across the board though, with all purchases. Like, I’m single and have one kid who’s 12, so I’m looking for a house that’s 2 bed, 1 or 2 bath, about 1,000 square feet, and sitting on 1/2 acre or less. But my realtor keeps wanting to show me houses that are much larger and have way more rooms and land. “What if you need this one day?” But I DON’T need this now, and I’m trying to get what I need and nothing more.
Maybe it’s because we are generally spoiled for choice?
When you buy a home if you’re a single man, you are a better catch for a hot single mom with also 1 or more child. So you may need to have an extra bedroom or two. And in the mean time you can air bnb out the extra rooms to offset the mortgage. People buy extra capacity for just in case situations.
I’m 48 and twice divorced. I’ll pass on the hot moms. But that’s a good point for the young and non-jaded guys out there!
I think America has gotten very good at getting Americans to buy things. And, having spent time in a few dozen other countries, not everyone does that.
Eh, it’s a notch sillier than that even. A Model Y Long Range is just fine for that road trip. This is somewhere between “didn’t spend 15 minutes planning the route or learning about electric cars” and “the road-trip planning equivalent of the Washington Generals”. A really basic naive route adds something like 1.5hrs to an otherwise 12.5hr trip, but an overnight stop cuts a chunk of that off. Combining pee/snack/lunch stops with charging cuts even more off, and you end up with a trip that’s only a few minutes longer. Not the best choice if it’s a trip you do monthly or weekly, but just fine if it’s only once a year or so.
All fair points. I think the reporter who went on the road trip did a fine enough job, but what came of his trip was… misconstrued to say the least.
The best place to hide a lie is always right next to the truth.
I can’t imagine a world where Fox News does a practical EV experiment in good faith.
I can’t imagine a world where
FoxNews does anythingpractical EV experimentin good faith.As long as the news’s profitability is tied to number of people who consume, it will always be about preaching to the choir and entertaining, rather than informing.
Okay, I read everything and watched the video segment and yep, it’s crap. Pure unadulterated high-octane bullshit. Which is the same thing Fox News spews out all day long, so this absolutely nothing new for them. Shameful, yes, surprising, not in the least (nor the 6 becoming 8 ‘error’).
Let’s see more Cybertrucks struggling with snow instead. Haha
We should have plenty of that coming up, given that both coasts are about to get slammed pretty hard…
With all the billions that Musk is throwing around to spread right wing nonsense, one would expect him to be getting better customer service at this point.
Sounds pretty woke tbh
Right wing, left wing, it’s all nonsense in this country…
Things are not exactly what they seem at first glance here, which has served to further divide the public(mostly along partisan lines) and cultivate a culture of ignorance that is pan-political.
I can’t believe some of the frothing-mouth opposition to electric cars that I’ve seen on some other sites. Given that Fox News only exists to feed the anger of their constituency (whom I’m pretty sure are part of that frothing-mouth opposition), this sort of thing is not surprising at all.
I’m sure by the time this filters through my Old Man’s morning coffee group, it’ll have metastasized into at least 10 loooonnng stops, at least one of them located near a “bad neighborhood” where the immigrant busses are dropping off the Covid-spreaders. That aside, my favorite part is at 1:41 of the The Morning Buzz segment where the topic of discussion is the immense hassle of backing up the vehicle in order to plug it in, and Jeff uses a rather baller-technique: staring at the B-pillar for guidance. Backup cameras? Jeff don’t need no stinking backup cameras, those are for non-patriots unfamiliar with the Wango-Tango.
I assume these are paradox buses – those are the lazy immigrants that are takin’ all the jerbs while spreading the imaginary/gubmint virus?
The immigrants are also lazy AND criminals AND taking our jobs. Which are only available because “no one wants to work anymore.”
Are these the same immigrants that I see picking the food we eat locally in the rural/farm area I live? Now I am confused. /s
Immigrants totally invade our country and poison our blood. See:
Trump’s grandfather
Trump’s mother
Trump’s wives
As someone who lives near the Girard supercharger, the Girard stop will be that bad neighborhood
(OK Girard isn’t bad we just like to make fun of it)
I have done the drive from Pittsburgh to NYC 12 times (back and forth) with my 2020 M Y, and 9 times from Pittsburgh to Green Bay, WI (700mi). Even did from Pittsburgh to Minneapolis, stopping in Madison for a 900 mi solo single day trip.
It is a non-issue. I’d never be caught dead on an EA, and as of this last trip, every single reststop in Indiana and Ohio (and plenty in PA) have superchargers. The fastest way to do the trip is many small charges, but still I’ve never had more than 5 stops for the trip. Even in -20F crazy cold weather last year.
There are other areas that are less easy to navigate overall, but the drive from Chicago to NY couldn’t be easier.
If Fox “Nooz” existed in the late 1800s they’d be telling viewers we shouldn’t invest in perfecting the automobile and instead stick with horses.
Fix seems more partial to horses’ asses.
“Automobiles, the new woke trend from animal lovers?”
Eh, I’ve been driving EVs for years, and I’ve had enough time with the available charging infrastructure in my area to feel comfortable road tripping around, but I COMPLETELY understand someone inexperienced with EVs is going to have a bad time. Even using Tesla’s reliable, if expensive Supercharger network does take some amount of trip planning, even if the car itself usually does a pretty good job planning the route.
I took my Mach-E on a 600-mile roundtrip road trip. I was headed up into the mountains, so I had to stop and charge twice on the way there due to the steady elevation gain, but only once on the way back thanks to coasting and regenerative braking.
It’s a 5.5hour non-stop drive each way, and it took me six hours each way. We only stayed at the chargers long enough to take the kids to the bathroom and give them a snack, then we were on our way. On the way back, we only needed to charge once, but still needed to stop for the kids.
I’ll admit I was a little nervous haven’t never taken that route in an EV, but with a little planning, everything went off without a hitch, and didn’t take a longer than it would have in our ICE car having to stop with kids anyway.
Man, the Ted Nugent appearance on this wingnut cake is just *chef’s kiss*
Still not as entertaining as all the comments David Tracy got when his Leaf got stranded. THAT was probably the most entertaining read of 2023 for me…
There’s plenty of valid complaints about modern EVs, this being said. But these complaints have plenty of overlap with modern ICE cars as well…
The eight stops thing, though, appears to be a mistake from the Fox Business News reporter that was then repeated on Fox News for some reason
Oh, that was no mistake but a strategic nugget of disinformation meant to mutate and metastasize so by the time a partisan politician shares it, the story become about how a Tesla needed five charging stops just to get through Ohio for twice the cost of gasoline.
I have a colleague who follows this stuff. He is smart, and a professional technician. He’s probably already told anyone who will listen to him today that this Tesla needed 8 stops to cross Ohio. He said to me the other day that electricity for an EV currently costs more than gas.
The intended audience just don’t want to know the content of the article, only the headline on Facebook. That’s more than enough for them to get angry and react.
“He said to me the other day that electricity for an EV currently costs more than gas.”
He might be right.
“In most states, it currently costs $0.43 per kWh for guests to charge at an Electrify America station. Meanwhile, members pay $0.31 per kWh plus a $4 monthly fee.”
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/electrify-america-charging-network
I’m in California and I just filled up at (suprise!) the cheapest station in town for $3.95/gal of regular.
I like to plug these numbers into PHEV cars at the EPA’s website as I feel that’s the most apples to apples comparison available. So lets use a 2023 Prius Prime.
That vehicle would cost me $3.12 to drive 25 miles on EA electricity and $2.06 on regular gas at those prices. That’s a significant difference!
If I were to be an EA member and only needed to charge/fillup every other month off months I’d be paying $4 vs $0 and $2.25/25 miles + $4 during on months. So in that specific case your coworker is correct.
Electricity rates and gas prices fluctuate and different cars use energy differently so of course YMMV. Public charging is the most expensive option so for folks who can charge at home using cheaper overnight rates or are lucky enough to have an employer that lets them charge for free at work the energy cost math goes hard in the EV’s favor. At that point the question is whether it makes up for the other costs vs a gasoline powered equivalent. Early LEAF owners got screwed on battery lifetimes and depreciation, they might have been better off with a Versa.
Now do a Camry (or any minivan) instead of literally the most efficient gas car out there.
Now do a Camry (or any minivan) instead of literally the most efficient gas car out there.
Sure. Lets do both:
2021 Pacifica Hybrid PHEV:
Using the same $3.95/gal for regular and $0.43/kWh it would cost $3.29 on gas and $4.41 on electricity to go 25 miles.
The 2023 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV gets a combined 26 MPG, exactly the same as a new ICE Camry. That Mitsubishi would cost $5.59/25 miles on electricity vs $3.80/25 mi on gas.
Need I say more?
PHEVs can’t charge at fast chargers so would never use EA – you are doing Fox News quality math here.
Fast chargers aren’t the solution for people who don’t have home charging – setting up apartment L2 chargers are. Then you use normal electricity rates, not EA rates.
PHEVs can’t charge at fast chargers so would never use EA – you are doing Fox News quality math here.
Oh please! I have already explained that PHEVs are simply a tool to give the fairest possible comparison between energy sources. Such fairness is not the FOX way.
Fast chargers aren’t the solution for people who don’t have home charging – setting up apartment L2 chargers are. Then you use normal electricity rates, not EA rates.
The story is about a road trip. Is your extension cord really that long?
The story is about a road trip. Is your extension cord really that long?
Do you start a road trip with an empty tank? The first full charge would be paid for at residential rates.
Do you start a road trip with an empty tank?
Basically yes. Whether that trip is started with an empty or full gas tank makes no difference. Every drop of gas comes from the same place – a gas station.
The first full charge would be paid for at residential rates.
Yeah, about that. I’m looking at PGE home charging rates paid by millions of northern Californians right now:
Summer EV-A rates:
$0.34 12AM-3PM
$0.55 3-4 and 9M-12AM
$0.66 4-9PM
Winter EV-A rates:
$0.34 12AM-3PM
$0.53 3-4 and 9M-12AM
$0.53 4-9PM
PGE home charging can be even WORSE than EA! Even at the cheapest home rate electricity is more expensive than gas! Out here you’ll pay more to drive a Tesla than a Camry Hybrid. You’ll also pay less to drive that Prius Prime on gas than joules.
https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#evResRates
Whether that trip is started with an empty or full gas tank makes no difference. Every drop of gas comes from the same place – a gas station.
Yes, that’s my point – you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare gas prices to EA prices for road trips. Gas cars pay gas station prices for every mile, but electric cars only pay EA prices AFTER they’ve used their full charge of residentially-charged miles.
I agree you have crazy electric rates where you live. That isn’t the case for most of the country.
electric cars only pay EA prices AFTER they’ve used their full charge of residential miles.
That assumes you start a trip on a full battery AND that you have home charging.
I agree you have crazy electric rates where you live. That isn’t the case for most of the country.
We also have crazy gasoline prices but not as crazy as our electricity rates.
My point was YMMV. EVs may make sense in for folks in Colorado with home and/or workplace charging but not in NorCal or street parking apartment dwellers in NYC.
Sure – things look dire if you choose the most expensive electricity in the country. Most of the rest of the country is paying less than 20 cents per kWh. But by all means, paint the worst-case scenario to make your point.
https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/
That “worst case” is the case for myself and 16 million other people. That’s not nothing.
And may not be the worst case. Hawaii is also a contender. As of 2022 they go as high as an average of $0.55/kWh.
https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/billing-and-payment/rates-and-regulations/average-price-of-electricity
Now do the same calculation at 10 cents per kWh, which is what I pay here in Colorado. Or 15 cents, which is probably close to the average for home electricity rates, since the Prius could never use an EA station at those inflated rates. You’ll get somewhere around $0.72 and $1.09 for the electric cost of those 25 miles. That’s a significant difference!
If you read to the end you’ll see I mentioned that already. In any case the story is about a road trip though so home rates aren’t really relevant.
If you’re comparing to a Prius, then only home rates are relevant. Or perhaps Level 2 charging which is nearly as cheap as home rates, and is often free. Only Level 3 charging is subject to those enormous costs per kWh.
PHEV are simply used as a tool to give the most accurate comparison possible. But if it will make you happy lets look at a Tesla 3 Long Range vs a Camry hybrid:
Tesla: $2.78 @ 0.43/kWh EA rates
Camry hybrid: $1.90 @ 3.95/gallon of regular
Does that make it better?
Why would a Tesla be using an EA station? Oh, I get it, because you’re still trying to paint the worst-case scenario. Many Tesla owners get to charge for free at Superchargers, while others pay around 25 cents per kWh, so now the Telsa spends $1.61 (or perhaps nothing) – yep, that’s better.
I simply picked one of the the most common EVs. But whatever, lets make it a Hyundai if that makes you happier:
2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 Long range RWD (18 inch Wheels): $2.53/25ml
The Camry hybrid still wins.
Oh, I get it, because you’re still trying to paint the worst-case scenario.
My comparison is based on my NorCal price of $3.95/gallon of regular, more than most of the country pays. Someone crossing Ohio might pay as little as $2.17/gal which works out to $1.04/25 mi vs a Tesla that has to pay $1.61/25mi at your $0.25/kWh Supercharging charging rate
The Camry hybrid still wins.
The Camry hybrid also has a range of nearly 700 miles so it can go most of the 800 miles of this reporter’s trip on a single tank of the cheapest gas. Put in just enough $2.70/gal Chicago gas to get you to those cheap Ohio stations and you’re coming out ahead.
I think I finally get your point, and I agree: gasoline is way too cheap compared to electricity!
$0.43/kWh is equivalent to $14.36/gallon of gas!
Sort of. My point was that Papa P’s colleague had a feasible argument that sometimes in America electricity for transportation IS more expensive than gas. This is neither a conservative nor a liberal attack but a fact. One can’t assume EVs are always going to win on energy cost. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.
“$0.43/kWh is equivalent to $14.36/gallon of gas!”
A gallon of gas contains 33.4kWh of energy which works out that way yes. That doesn’t account for losses though. A Prius engine is about 40% TE so a gallon of gas will put about 13.4 kWh to the plug. So if say I were to power my house with a Prius burning $4/gallon gas I might pay $0.30/kWh which is cheaper than PGE rates.
Hmmmm…
Actually I have long pondered the idea of doing just that with a used Prius sourced Atkinson cycle engine as the basis for a NG fueled generator and using the waste heat for hot water and winter heating. More so as a five cycle engine with water injection to really boost the efficency. I haven’t checked my gas rates lately but last time I did they looked interesting. Unfortunately I rent so my authority for such projects is limited. I’m also too lazy to actually do it and my climate too mild to really take advantage of the waste heat. That Prius engine is capable of putting out 20 kWh of heat per GGE which is a LOT of heat. A clever engineer in a colder winter climate might take up that torch.
Paging Toecutter… Or Rootwrym.
“gasoline is way too cheap compared to electricity!”
Is gas too cheap? Multitudes of Americans that buy and drive gas guzzling vehicles to move their gas guzzling hobbies scream YES!!
Is electricity too expensive? For me it certainly is. At my rates I have no incentive to go EV over a regular hybrid, at least not without reliable free workplace charging.
Don’t get me wrong I’d LOVE to buy an EV. I simply can’t justify it on the costs I can account for. To make things worse the variations and potential costs (e.g. out of warranty battery failure) muddy the picture to the point I can’t be sure I’d ever make up even the cost of the sales tax. Even an ebike can’t beat my pedal bike on cost.
So I checked my gas rates. All in my NG costs are $1.96/therm which works out to $2.26 GGE which if the generator stays in its 40% TE sweet spot can put out electricity at $0.17/kWh with 20kWh of FREE heat per GGE. No time of use surcharges either!
Too bad I’m a lazy ass renter. This might be a worthy project for a mechanically inclined homeowner though. You might even be able to argue there’s no need for emissions controls since your NG gas appliances don’t use them.
Bonus points: Turn the Prius battery into a big UPS buffer!
I’m a lazy-ass renter also, having sold my house earlier this year and decided to sit on the money instead of pumping it back into the market. So far, I’m earning far more on investments than I ever did in the real-estate market, but that’s a story for another time.
My own personal thought process was exactly like yours initially (I’m an analytical chemist), until I actually bought an EV and then my whole perspective shifted. I sold all my gasoline vehicles and I don’t plan to ever buy another one. The ownership experience over the past 2 years has been so much better in every way than my previous 4 decades of ICE-vehicle ownership. I spend much less on energy (a recent 450 mile round trip in my Polestar 2 cost me a whopping $16 in electricity costs at expensive Level 3 chargers, and that’s pretty typical), and FAR less on maintenance (zero dollars for two vehicles, except for swapping summer/winter tires, which I also did for my ICE vehicles) and they’re so damn much fun to drive that I haven’t cut back on the number of miles driven, either.
So my advice to you and anyone who thinks they might want an EV but can’t justify it, is to just get one.
Small world! I am also an analytical chemist!
My experience with my ICE vehicles hasn’t been awful. My biggest expenses aside from fuel are probably biannual smog and oil changes. The rest of the expenses have been common to all cars and kinda hard to nail down to get a through comparison to see what the best option is. Having just plugged in my local gas and electricity rates yet again the most likely best option based solely on fuel costs is – yet again – a used Prius.
(I’d really rather have a Gen2 Volt though.)
Unfortunately as a diehard fan of sliding doors there aren’t many options. So for now I’ll stick with my surprisingly fun to drive Mazda 5. Your Polestar sounds like fun too; however, I’m guessing depreciation is going to consume a big chunk of savings compared to my fully depreciated gassers but that’s what the irrational side of the ownership experience is for.
And I am also a cheap bastard :-). It is indeed a small world. Now, if you did your doctoral work at the University of Denver, I’m going to start to wonder if I’m chatting with myself :-D.
I’ve had very few negative experiences with my ICE vehicles in the past. I loved working on them, maintaining them, modifying them, etc. But once I experienced EV ownership it was like my eyes were opened to just how fun vehicle ownership could be without all the faffing about with oil and spark plugs and brakes, etc., etc. And having 400 HP available the second my foot hits the go pedal doesn’t hurt, either. (I’m leasing the Polestar, btw, because depreciation and potential obsolescence was a major concern of mine). But even the relatively low 118 HP in the Fiat 500e is a hoot. I think ICE vehicles are a modern miracle of engineering and physics but honestly they’re just so 20th century.
Seriously, though, find yourself a 500e or an i3 or something like that and jump in. If your experience is like mine, you’ll start to wonder why you ever put up with smelly hydrocarbons in the first place.
“Now, if you did your doctoral work at the University of Denver, I’m going to start to wonder if I’m chatting with myself”
Nope. Mine was in San Diego. Might have run into you at a conference in Telluride though.
“And having 400 HP available the second my foot hits the go pedal doesn’t hurt, either.”
I grew up with double digit HP so anything in the triple digits is fine by me. As long as it can hit 70 mph eventually I’m fine. I’m now acclimated to a bicycle so really anything self propelled is a goddamn rocket, especially uphill.
“If your experience is like mine, you’ll start to wonder why you ever put up with smelly hydrocarbons in the first place.”
I’m sure it will be. My experience with hybrids has been a teaser.
Even so I can remember when EVERYTHING STANK!! I spent a good chunk of my childhood in smoggy 1970s LA with its first degree smog alerts. Smoking was endemic, emissions controls primitive or non existant, lead was in the gas, cars leaked ALL the fluids, gear oil was made with actual extract of sperm whale. People though nothing of burning whatever suited them. I found out later I lived a few miles from the biggest lead battery recycler in the country. I even spent a few warm summers in the boonies with the rest of the extended family, pissing and crapping in oh so fragrant honey buckets next to a sheep field.
I’m still marveling at how much cleaner and less stinky everything is. Thank you CARB!
We’re about the same age then 🙂
Cheers!
Its always nice to meet someone who appreciates the simple pleasure of crapping in a fragrant bucket on warm summer’s day. 😉
Gas is also cheaper. I’m seeing gas as low as $2.23/gal in Denver so while you’re still paying less for home electricity the cost to drive that 25 miles on gas is $1.16.
I have to pay 35 at my apartment..
$0.35/kWh?
If you don’t have a place to charge your ev at home, ev ownership is a terrible idea for you.
The fact that you will do almost all of your charging at home is one of the main advantages of owning an EV.
So, in the real world, ev charging is dramatically cheaper than gasoline.
Going back to the original article, the only reason you would charge fully on public chargers is to write a junk news article to incite the simple minded.
You seem to believe that people lost money on their Leaves, but is their any actual evidence that it happened?
The fact that you will do almost all of your charging at home is one of the main advantages of owning an EV.
As I showed earlier that is not universally true. Us PG&E customers may be paying more, maybe a lot more for home charging than at the pump.
Going back to the original article, the only reason you would charge fully on public chargers is to write a junk news article to incite the simple minded.
As you noted EV ownership is a terrible idea for folks for whom home charging is NOT an option. So what happens to them when EVs are the only new option?
You seem to believe that people lost money on their Leaves, but is their any actual evidence that it happened?
DT bought a 70k 2011 LEAF earlier this year for $2000. Its range is ~20 miles:
https://www.theautopian.com/i-bought-a-2000-electric-car-with-a-failing-battery-heres-how-bad-it-is/
This is not a one off. Here’s one just like it (without the dent) close to me:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/d/san-jose-2011-nissan-leaf/7705312916.html
MSRP on those was $34k so losing $30k in 12 years to end up with a 20 mile radius car…yeah I’d say they lost money compared to say my 160k 2006 Accord that I bought for $20k and is now worth maybe $5k and goes just as far on a gallon of gas as it did the day I bought it. Maybe even further.
Who knows, I might just go pick up that LEAF. One person’s crushing loss may be a cheap bastard’s bargain of the year!
Yeah some of you are paying outrageous rates for electricity if the numbers are accurate. Still, no one is paying more to charge at home than the cost of gasoline, although it is admittedly closer than I thought.
Infrastructure to support the implementation of government legislation is something the government needs to consider, especially if they’re forcing people into it.
Now, the Leaf. If you compare that to a Civic of the same vintage, the Civic is worth about 8k-9k Canadian.
Of course, that’s a higher residual than the Leaf, at about $2700, but that’s not the whole story of course.
At a conservative annual fuel cost of about 1k Canadian, that’s about 13k in fuel for the Civic. Electricity cost for the Leaf rough estimate would be about 2k, but it’s honestly probably less than that.
Now, maintenance. Maybe about $500/year for the Civic, so about $6500.
The Leaf on the other hand is probably closer to $100 to $200 per year, so about $2600.
Overall that’s about 15k less cost of ownership for the Leaf.
The Civic is still cheaper in that scenario, although that’s worst case. Average Leaf residuals are about the same as the equivalent Civic, making it pretty much a wash once you factor in the other costs.
I want a 20 mile Leaf as well. With gas prices this high and my 2006 Rav4 drinking so much of it, (I only commute in town) the broken Leaf would suit me perfectly.
“Yeah some of you are paying outrageous rates for by electricity if the numbers are accurate. Still, no one is paying more to charge at home than the cost of gasoline”
We are. That’s why I included a link to PGE’s outrageous rates. Go ahead, plug in the numbers yourself. You’ll see.
“If you compare that to a Civic of the same vintage, the Civic is worth about 8k-9k Canadian.”
Factor in mileage and condition. How many 2011 Civics do you see with 70k on the clock and absolutely no rust anywhere?
“Overall that’s about 15k less cost of ownership for the Leaf”
Except you’ve ignored the elephant – the battery. Unless its replaced under warranty you’re looking at $4500 or so for a 24 kWh battery that’ll turn it back into a local runabout. Given the batteries on these cars crapped out by 70k a replacement might be needed in another 70k unless you fork out more for the lizard model. A lot of Civics of that vintage are beyond 280k miles. That’s 4 HV batteries or $18k.
Meanwhile that Civic will have not lost range ever. It might even have gained a bit, thanks to a broken in engine.
That 20 miles is also in coastal California. You have a colder winter than we do. That’s going to have a strong impact on range.
Of course 8-9k is for a minty 70k mile Civic. Probably in better condition than the 2k Leaf.
And I did factor in the battery condition, that’s why the Leaf is 2k and not 9k.
Oh yeah, the cold weather thing. That kinda sucks. My goal would be to secure a useable Leaf for under 4k Canadian, so wish me luck.
One thing I should have already said is that the Leaf was aimed at early adopters, which are people who knowingly pay a higher cost to access less proven new tech. They didn’t buy these things because they thought they would save a fortune.
Now that the market has matured, the value proposition is certainly there.
“Of course 8-9k is for a minty 70k mile Civic. Probably in better condition than the 2k Leaf”
If you can find a clean titled 12yo minty 70k Civic for $8-$9k you should buy it. In my area the ask is $11-$13k
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/d/oakland-2012-honda-civic-cpe-lx-coupe/7702997135.html
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/ctd/d/vallejo-2012-honda-civic-sdn-lx-sedan/7702306212.html
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/d/fremont-2012-honda-civic-lx-sedan-4d/7698242620.html
(Yes these are dealers. There were no private sales to benchmark to.)
“And I did factor in the battery condition, that’s why the Leaf is $2k and not $6k”
FIFY:
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/ctd/d/sacramento-2011-nissan-leaf-sl-11-bars/7704665941.html
Even with a good LEAF battery you’re still looking at a spread of $5-7k or so.
“They didn’t buy these things because they thought they would save a fortune.”
Funny, I recall saving money as a key selling point, at least until the tables turned when gas prices dropped.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y9alLkMQyM0
https://www.gasbuddy.com/charts
“My goal would be to secure a useable Leaf for under 4k Canadian, so wish me luck.”
Good luck. Best to shop now and when the lower range is obvious and a better negotiating pount.
Ah, here is is:
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Or2VpbVL4khurAXWhjzNWQHaCV%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=4d850f29473aea4893fa9cb842a03d820518c3224d0b6a5b7c9d09e2d09c68c9&ipo=images
I guess the market is just different here in the GTA.
You’ll be thrilled to learn that cheap Civics are plentiful here. I don’t want one so I won’t buy one.
Cheap Leaves are a fantasy here as well. The cheapest ones are about 7k Canadian, but average more like 12k.
The Nissan ad rightly claims that fuel savings would average $4000 over the lease term. It wasn’t a key selling point, but pretty much mandatory to mention that when you’re marketing an EV. If you leased this, you made off like a bandit.
It’s likely that many owners bought these off lease when they were heavily depreciated.
Of course, as I said before, no one bought these thinking they would save a fortune. They knew they would save a decent amount on gas and they did.
Early EV adopters whom I know personally were generally more interested in lowering their carbon footprint (A whole other can of worms, I know), but of course many consumers would be interested in the fuel savings and added convenience of an EV.
I’ll still keep an eye out for that cheap Leaf, but I’m not terribly optimistic.
Well we have a few here. With a range of only 20 miles you’ll want to Bring a Trailer.
“The Nissan ad rightly claims that fuel savings would average $4000 over the lease term”
That ad was for a dealership in PG&E territory, not GTA so I’m not so sure those numbers check out. They certainly would not today.
Even just charging at home tilts it pretty hard in favor of the electric. The national average electric rate is $0.17/kwh, but even that’s kind of pessimistic on the electric side. Most of the places with higher average rates also have time-of-use plans that allow charging at lower rates overnight, so even $0.14 is a fairly pessimistic number (and more than I’m paying). That generally drops the electric cost from 1.5x gas to 0.5x.
That’s also including the rate hike on power generation that affected states near Texas after their debacle, and the currently relatively low gas prices. Average across several years, and electric pulls further ahead.
“Even just charging at home tilts it pretty hard in favor of the electric”
For you maybe. For me and 16M of my fellow Californians I’ve already shown this not to necessarily be the case even at the lowest EV rate.
Well, maybe 12 million or so. Excluding the houses with residential solar and anyone served by SMUD and other non-PGE municipal utilities that have lower prices. Not sure on the exact number, because there’s about a hundred of them with widely varying populations covered and rates.
Even in a lot of CA, it’s a little ahead. Break-even is something like $/kwh * 11 = $/gal , and I don’t think any place in CA is below the $3.63/gal it’d take to be equivalent to $0.33/kwh.
16M is PG&E’s claim:
“The company provides natural gas and electric service to approximately 16 million people throughout a 70,000-square-mile service area in northern and central California”
https://www.pge.com/en/about/company-information/company-profile.html
Yes SMUD and other utilities are cheaper. Nice if you can get it. Unfortunately shopping around isn’t an option for most of us. If it were PG&E would be long gone.
“Break-even is something like $/kwh * 11 = $/gal , and I don’t think any place in CA is below the $3.63/gal it’d take to be equivalent to $0.33/kwh.”
Not according to my plug and chug ala the EPAs handy dandy online calculator. At my most recent score of $3.95/gal (the cheapest in town) the equivalent is $0.30/kWh. That’s using 2022 Prius and RAV4 Primes, Pacifica hybrid and a 2017 Chevy Volt as benchmarks and the standard 45/55 highway/city blend:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44362&id=44984&id=44930&id=37309&#tab1
At PG&Es cheapest home rate of $0.34/kWh the break even is about $4.50/gal. At EA’s $0.43/kWh its $5.70/gal. Charge at home during peak hours and you’re going to pay a LOT more. Charge at work or at a muni plug on someone else’s dime and you’ll pay nothing. So as always YMMV.
LOL Ohio is about 250 miles wide. Pretty much any EV better than David’s Leaf can do without charging.
Better yet drive through in your hybrid Camry and fill up in New Concord.
@ $2.16/gal you’ll enjoy some of the lowest prices in the country!
What’s old is new again:
https://imgur.com/ENp3fAx?r
Depending on where you live he might not be too far off on the charging cost.
My last electric bill equated to about $0.30/kWhr (yes I know that’s high, but that’s the northeast). Charging a model 3 is about $22.50 for a claimed 333 miles, or 7 cents/mi.
For comparison, a Civic has a 12.4 gallon tank. Gas is currently averaging $3.18 here, so $39.43 to fill a tank for a range of 446 miles. About 9 cents/mi.
Depending on which cars you compare (i.e the same calc on a corolla hybrid is about 6 cents/mi currently), how much range each car actually gets in the real world, etc. the costs can be pretty damn close if gas is on the cheaper side even if you only charge at home. Our electric costs are insane.
I’m sick of everyone treating the cost savings from an EV as gospel – if you live in an area with high electric prices the running cost difference is minimal at best. Add in the fact that a model 3 costs twice as much as a civic or corolla and even with some reduced maintenance cost an EV is never going to save you money around here.
I’m actually in Canada. Here in Ontario, electricity costs $0.10/kwh, and gasoline is $4.25/gallon (all in usd), so I guess my buddy’s pretty far off. I am shocked to see that americans are paying 3 to 5 times that for electricity.
If we actually look into those numbers, the average is $0.30 for California, $0.22 for new York, and $0.15 for Ohio.
So, although you guys seem to be paying much more for electricity than us, the actual rates are far from eclipsing the price of gasoline.
I will admit though that for the highest rate payers, it’s closer than I thought.
Of course, Civic and Corolla are not equivalent to a Model 3. A Model 3 is more equivalent to a mid level 3 Series, and it’s a much cheaper and better option.
In running costs, factoring all maintenance, fuel cost and depreciation, the Tesla much cheaper than its competitors.
Glad your electric costs are much lower, it just makes ours around here sound that much more outrageous. My point really is that depending on where you live running costs for an EV aren’t always significantly less. For you they certainly are, for me not so much.
There are lots of ways to frame the numbers to fit a particular agenda, and it sounds like your friend will just take the worst case numbers at face value. That’s just as egregious as some on the other side who seem to think that an EV is always dirt cheap to run as long as you have home charging. I’d actually love to have an EV, but the higher up front costs (I don’t really consider a Model 3 or Y equivalent to a BMW, not with those spartan interiors), higher insurance, and minimal to no savings on running costs make it a terrible financial decision for people in my situation, even with easy access to home charging.
Cheaper current for sure, I guess that’s the payoff for having all my drinking water filtered through a CANDU reactor lol.
Our gas prices truly suck though.
I get what you’re saying about the Tesla interior, but it’s more of a style choice than anything. If you love a busy interior with lots of shiny bits and buttons, you can get that in a 2011 Hyundai for like $1500. The Tesla interior is airy, comfortable and well put together, but I also find a BMW interior more appealing.
The Tesla is in a different realm of performance than a Civic or Corolla. Again, it’s more in line with an entry level luxury sedan.
I still believe that in the end, there are savings to be had even if you pay a high rate to home charge. Higher insurance cost is difficult to verify and may be true, but I’ve never heard this claim from an EV owner.
Even if somehow the fuel savings are a wash, you’ll still save a fortune on annual maintenance.
My opinions on these matters are not based on Facebook headlines or a political agenda, but rather extensive experience and longtime observation and analysis. That being said, things are always evolving and I’m always looking to broaden my knowledge base. It’s one of the main reasons I come to the Autopian.
A Tesla is definitely nicer than a Corolla I give you, I just don’t think it rises to the level of a “luxury” car. The performance was novel a while back, but performance at that level or close to it seems to come with any decent EV these days. Would you consider a Mach-E a luxury car? It basically matches the performance of a Model Y, but I doubt anyone would consider it on the same level as an X3. A Tesla, at least to me, seems to split the difference yet up until recently they charged BMW money.
Anyway that’s really semantics. I really started to get more skeptical of EVs when we were shopping for a minivan last year. At first a hybrid or EV was top of our requirements list and a Pacifica PHEV seemed to fit perfectly. But after running the numbers (I admit spending way to much time putting a spreadsheet together) turns out depending on what you plug in for gas prices it actually could be more expensive to run in EV mode around here. That plus the terrible reliability made it drop off the list quickly.
We ended up with an Odyssey, which was at the bottom of the list when we started shopping. Part of me still regrets getting a solely gas-powered car in 2023, but that hybrid/EV requirement just ended up not being as important to us once we started looking at how this vehicle would actually serve our family. By the time we need to replace that vehicle I’m hoping EVs will have gotten much more competitive.
I tell you all this because I’m also trying to approach it with an analytical mind, not just headlines.
Yes I consider the Maki to be a luxury car, because it’s priced pretty much the same as an X3. I wouldn’t cross shop it with an Escape. I agree though, it’s just semantics.
The Odyssey is the best thing going in gas only minivans, so great choice. You Dodged a bullet with the Chrysler.
I’m really surprised you didn’t consider the Sienna though. Hybrid AWD, and you never have to fill it with those prohibitively expensive electrons. I do know that at least where I live they are ridiculously expensive though, 70k-90k Canadian. That’s double what I paid for my 2016.
We did look at the Sienna, and once the Chrysler was out that was our next choice on paper. My wife just didn’t like the interior (it was very cheap feeling among other issues) and it wasn’t as useful for a young family as the Odyssey – those “magic slide” seats are a killer feature with carseats. Plus with the markups still going on we would’ve had to pay $7k US more for an equivalent to the van we ended up with. That buys a lot of gas anywhere.
If our kids were older and the pricing was more in line with the competition it may have been the choice, but it just didn’t fit us. I can see why it’s appealing though, the powertrain is pretty much ideal for a minivan.
The whole process just reinforced the idea that all the online shopping in the world doesn’t replace trying out the car in person, at least for me. I walked into that Toyota dealer ready to place an order, but by the end of the test drive it was no longer even a contender.
Yeah it’s hard to justify the price premium. My Sienna’s interior is even cheaper, but it has many nifty features and is ridiculously durable and useable.
I went with the Sienna because it was cheaper than the Odyssey at the time. I loved how the Sienna drove and the price was so good that I never ended up driving the Honda. The clever salesman had me come for the test drive after dark so I couldn’t see how cheap the interior was lol.
I actually initially went to Chrysler expecting a great deal on a Caravan. It turned out that a similarly equipped Sienna was cheaper!
This is why Rudy walks out of the courtroom from his defamation case and immediately starts spewing the lies that got him into court in the first place. It doesn’t matter if it’s true anymore. It just needs to be said so that it can be amplified.
Wait till they try to cross Iowa.
ThisFox NewsSegment About A Tesla Road Trip From Chicago To New YorkIs Just DumbFTFY
At this point, Fox is just presenting opinion disguised as news to appeal to their viewer base. The majority of Fox viewers believe that EVs are a tool of the devil and that’s the story Fox is gonna lazily crap out onto the screen, supported by innuendo and outright lies.
At this point?
Fox “News”, powered by Jewish Space Lasers (R).
*pew pew pew*
I’m just curious why Israel hasn’t used this formidable weapon against Hamas.
She took it away from them after they used it to set those forest fires. It’s currently sitting in a barn in Northwest Georgia.
Comment of the day here. Thanks.
I’m no Fox News viewer, but a large percentage of the population can’t figure out how to set their clocks after daylight saving time or set up their home WiFi.
EVs have a learning curve and downsides to go with their upsides, especially on road trips, and it shouldn’t be political to say that.
One of my interview questions used to be “Is your VCR blinking 12:00 because you don’t know how to set it?”
I know how to set my clock.
I also know if I wait 6 months it will fix itself.
You just accidentally outed yourself, oldtimer. It’s either 4 or 8 months, depending.
(I’m also an oldtimer, which is how I recognized the source of your error.)
All my wall clocks are atomic radio time clocks. I know how to set them, I’m just too &%#+@ lazy to do it.
EVERY car has a learning curve. My son is 16, but put him in the drivers seat, and he has NO clue what to do without training. I assume when I get an EV, I will also have the same learning curve in the first year while I learn it’s idiosyncrasies. This whole story makes sense when you realize this person had no clue what he was doing when I started the journey.
I haven’t read the post yet, but first I have to ask the rhetorical question: Isn’t any segment on Fox Dumb by Definition? 😀
Well, yes. “Price of gas” stories using a Yukon XL with a monster tank. Or finding out what “real Americans” think by going to a diner populated entirely by geezers.
Or not ever reporting anything that might challenge orthodoxy.
Or, ya know, facts.
Well, if you’re new to EVs and rent a Tesla from Hertz, I think your average non-EV person might be just as confused. Of course, Fox News will always throw in some spin, but so do most “news” organizations these days.
As you say, experienced EV drivers won’t make these mistakes. But as someone who hasn’t driven more than a few demonstration laps in parking lots in an EV, I’m not sure I’d fare much better.
“Throw in some spin” is quite the understatement
Honestly at this point I think Fox News is controlled opposition.
In general most Institutional news media companies get pathetic levels of viewership. When information has never been more accessible it’s hard to sell your BS version of what happened to people.
That being said people are stupid, and in spite of information being so easily accessible it’s remarkable how much BS still treated as fact.
There’s nothing that can get rid of your love of history like watching history you lived through be rewritten and becoming the new historical fact.
It’s all about the target audience. Eventually Fox’s will die off.
Hopefully the audiences of all 24 hour news networks die off. We’d all be better off then.
Twatter can go along with them too.
Facebook as well, TikTok, SnapChat, all that crap can die.
It won’t, unfortunately. Old people that are angry things aren’t like they used to be are a renewable resource.
Yep, everyone cheering that conservative old people will eventually die off forget that a lot of those conservative old people were once more liberal young people. It’s like how everyone says they won’t turn into their parents, yet most people do exactly that.
Lots of younger people don’t have the opportunities, luxuries and free time that their parents did. Society’s tolerance of both mistakes or unforeseen unfortunate events outside of one’s control is also greatly less today than it used to be.
I learned from my parents’ mistakes. I don’t have the familial safety net that they did. Had I repeated their mistakes, I’d be homeless and broke right now. I’ve been neither liberal nor conservative from a young age, but instead a radical, much to their chagrin. But it’s a survival necessity at this point, and will likely become moreso in the future.