It’s the year 2048. It’s Sunday morning, and you’ve just finished a delicious brunch of vat-grown sirloin orbs with your polycule. You feed the now synth-meat-juice-soaked bio-organic plates to your feli-canine hybrid dogcat, ironically named Covid, and turn off the holovisor because you’re sick of listening to President Skrillex’s campaign speeches. You’re going to meet some friends at your local Cars and Coffee, which now all start no earlier than noon thanks to an internationally-agreed upon binding UN mandate. You climb into your prized 2023 Renault Megane RS Ultime, which you just got, as it’s finally 25 years old and able to be imported, and you’re very excited to show it off. Now, here’s my question: Will you see any cool old electric cars at this event?
I ask this question because I was talking to our own David Tracy, who, as he has reminded all of us multiple times, is the proud owner of a 2014 BMW i3 electric car. Both David and I agree that the i3 is a fascinating car and has all the makings of a future classic: interesting technical design (even if, or maybe especially because, it was a dead end), novel and distinctive styling, historic significance, and so on. It’s absolutely the sort of car I’d like to see at a Cars and Coffee in 25 years. But will I?
It’s pretty uncommon to see people collecting vintage EVs now, and I think the main reason for that is there just aren’t that many that people actually want to collect. Sure, there are really old ones like a Detroit Electric that may be in museums, and some people have been collecting Crap Era EVs like the Citicar, but those use widely-available lead acid car batteries, and as such are relatively easy and cheap to keep going.
But something like an early Nissan Leaf? No one really cares, and, even if they did, getting replacement battery packs would be an expensive and difficult undertaking, costing between $5,000 and $10,000 depending on the age and size of the battery. Does anyone really want to drop that amount of money into a Leaf?
That said, there’s actually a lot of current EVs out there that should, by almost any definition, become future classic and collectible cars. Whatever you may think of Teslas, there is no question that Tesla ushered in a new era of EVs, and cars like the first-generation Model S have gobs of historical significance. In the year 2048, a well-preserved Tesla Model S should have as much gravity and relevance as, say, a well-preserved 1965 Mustang or a 1959 Mini or any number of other collectible cars. Tesla has a huge following of wildly brand-loyal enthusiasts, and it’s quite easy to picture a 2012 Model S owner in 2048 polishing their Tesla, maybe with those weird creepy little kid dolls leaning up against the car, desperately hoping you’ll ask them some question about the car that will trap you in a tedious conversation that ends with a reminder that one day Elon will return, his Starship wasn’t actually lost on the way to Mars like everyone said, and he will deliver all his believers unto paradise.
You may back away, but you’d never question why that car was there, being shown. Because it deserves to be there.
And yet, as David and I were talking about this, we realized that keeping and enjoying a really old electric car may prove to be a much more difficult task than doing the same thing with classic combustion cars. As you have probably already guessed, the problem is with the batteries.
EVs Lose Their Usefulness Over Time, Gas Cars Don’t
Right at this moment, my daily driver, a 1990 Nissan Pao, is technically a “classic car.” It’s 33 years old, and still performs just as it did three decades ago: slowly but reliably, and it goes as far on a tank of gas as it did in 1990, at generally the same speeds. And, it does all this with pretty routine piecemeal maintenance and repairs. Sure, I had to do a lot of work on it when I hit a deer, but even with the difficulties of getting hard-to-find parts from Japan, it wasn’t really all that expensive or difficult to get back on the road.
The same goes for my other archaic shitboxes that I love so: my 1973 Beetle had been my daily driver since I got it when I was 18, and keeping it going has never been very hard, really. There’s a huge base of support, and parts are plentiful. My Yugo is, well, a Yugo, but it can be fixed with hose clamps and a rock, if needed. And, of course, my 1989 Ford F-150 will pretty much run forever, and you can find parts for that thing in convenience stores, practically.
All these cars are just as useful when 40 years old as they were brand new; they get the same range, they make basically the same power, and they take just as long to fill up. EVs, on the other hand, because less useful over time, and that’s interesting to think about in the context of classic car ownership, especially when you realize that mending that loss of utility means replacing what will then be archaic batteries.
But let’s think about a car like David’s i3 or a Tesla Model S that’s over 30 years old [Editor’s Note: I really don’t know that this discussion is as relevant to the Model S. For one, its batteries seem to hold up reasonably well (they seem to lose about 10 percent or so over 200,000 miles and 10 years based on what I’ve read), and two, it’s got so much range that even if it lost 50 percent after 50 years, you could still take it to car shows and even commute with it. That’s not the case with the i3 or Leaf. -DT].
Sure, EV battery life has proven to be better than many anticipated years ago when cars like the first Nissan Leafs started to hit the market, but they’re not magic, and they’re still subject to the laws of chemistry and physics. There’s a reason why David was able to get the battery in his i3 replaced for free when he bought it, and that is because California mandates that the high voltage batteries of plug-in hybrids be guaranteed for 10 years or 150,000 miles, which is more generous than BMW’s own eight-year guarantee. After just nine years, the battery in David’s i3 was, charitably, garbage, with a displayed range of under 50 miles. In short, not very useful. And just imagine if the car were 20 years old and had driven over 250,000 miles; yikes.
If David had to change that battery pack himself, pay out of his own rust-filled pockets, he’d be out at least $16,000, according to the SAE. And, that’s pretty much about average: battery replacement costs for Teslas like the Model S or Model X or Model 3 are around $13,000 to $16,000, for example, and those are still currently being made, of course. What about when these things are old enough to be classics? Will there be an industry for making very old legacy EV batteries? Maybe! Will there be aftermarket companies making modern batteries that could be retrofitted into old cars? How complex will that integration be? How expensive? Will the new batteries play nicely with the rest of the electronics? Maybe there will be innovations that make these batteries cheaper and easier to use? But it hasn’t happened yet.
The problem is batteries just aren’t like other car parts, in that they will fail over time, no matter what. Batteries decay over time, and it’s not an if, it’s just how it is. If you find a 57-year old 2012 Tesla Model S in a barn in 2069 (nice) and you want to drive it again, there’s really no way to get around the fact that the entire battery pack may need replacing, and that’s a monolithic cost – it’s one unit, one part, and the car won’t work if you don’t fix that, even before you address anything else about the car. (Of course, the Model S would likely have been easier and cheaper to maintain over its lifespan than an equivalent ICE car, given how few moving parts are in an EV powertrain).
Conversely, if you found a 57-year old combustion car in a barn today, say a 1966 Iso Grifo, you could get that thing up and running pretty easily, swapping out the Chevy V8 used in there with a used one or even a brand new crate motor, complete with carb and distributor and everything, for about $6,000. Sure, there’s other stuff you’d need to fix, but it’d be mostly parts that you could get one at a time, at whatever pace you needed to do.
Now, the Iso example is maybe a bit of a cheat, because it has an engine that is still being made, in some compatible forms. but even if you found something like a Corvair or another car decades out of production, you can still find plenty of used parts to get that going again, even whole used engines that have been sitting for decades. But unlike a battery, you can get an engine that’s been sitting for decades going again. And you can take your time doing it, buying parts you need as you can afford it.
So, really classic EVs will face two major battery-related issues: batteries will go bad over time and to replace them, it will require a significant one-time infusion of cash. And then there’s the issue of who will actually be building obsolete battery packs? There could be a thriving aftermarket for this, if there are enough people collecting cars of a particular make and model, but if not (and it’s very possible that during the “danger period” of a car — that is the period after it’s lost its novelty and before it’s become classic — these cars will just be junked, especially if range is already compromised) what could you do? Could you assemble your own battery packs using some sort of off-the-shelf cells and a used housing, connectors, and electronic control equipment? Maybe? I don’t want to say no, but it does seem like an order of magnitude more complex than a current-day classic car owner who may just need to install a new intake manifold on an engine or something. Especially when you consider how many new EVs are using structural battery packs, where the battery pack forms an integral part of the car’s chassis. [Editor’s Note: The modules are usually replaceable, however. And they each have certain characteristics that could be replicated, in theory. The integration with the electronics/cooling system could be tricky, however. -DT].
Currently, pretty much anyone who wants it enough can have a vintage car that is drivable and usable. Sure, it takes money, but there’s a lot of options for non-rich people, myself included. If every vintage car I looked into getting would definitely need one part that cost over $10,000, before any other work on the car was done, could I be in the position I am now, with a driveway full of old cars, both in drivable and project car status? Hell no.
Some Cars’ Batteries Won’t Last And Will Need To Be Replaced, But By What?
I don’t know for sure what this means for the future, for a future where the hobby and lifestyle of collecting and using and enjoying old cars is still viable and within the reach of many. Sure, there will still be many combustion cars that can be collected and enjoyed, but they’re getting older and older and older. Is it realistic to think that a car show in 2050 will be filled with tons of 80 year-old cars? How many informal car meetups have you been too that were mostly 1930s Hupmobiles or early 1940s Packards? Are we currently building cars that are truly disposable, and don’t even have the option to be kept as classics decades hence?
Will David have to get rid of his i3 in 10 years, when the battery has degraded again? I’m not sure.
I know that a solution to this would be something I’ve long thought the whole industry should go to for electric vehicles: standardized and swappable batteries. Batteries that are unique to a particular model and integrated into the structure of the car are pretty much the standard for mainstream EVs, and that’s why used EVs and then classic EV ownership is going to be such a huge slice of clusterfudge. If batteries came in standard sizes, with standard connectors and output, they could be changed and upgraded as new developments in battery chemistry occurred, and a thriving and competitive aftermarket of battery manufacturers could develop. Then when you pull a 40-year old EV out of a barn, you know you just need to add in some number of affordable standardized battery packs to at least get it mobile again.
Of course, that’s not a direction the industry seems interested in going. And that’s why I’m so uncertain if any of the currently produced EVs on the market will ever be viable classic cars to own when our kids or grandkids decide they’d like to get into vintage cars, and want the vintage cars they grew up with, just like how Boomers collect Bel Airs or how the Radwood and Litwood collector movements started.
I’m worried about i3s, because if David’s battery died after 9 years and 134,000 miles, how many of these things cars will even be left in 30 years?
I think it’s something worth discussing, at the very least. BMW/third-party shops aren’t going to stockpile new old-stock i3 batteries like they could engines, for a number of reasons including battery longevity and safety. For certain cars, there will definitely be companies that step up to provide solutions, and maybe there will be technological breakthroughs that render all of my hand-wringing moot. I sure hope so. Because I’d hate to see this whole passion and interest in old cars become something only for rich people who can either afford to own and maintain incredibly aging combustion cars or who can be willing and able to drop large chunks of cash on bespoke EV battery packs for their vintage EVs.
Maybe I’m missing some key element here. Maybe we can have EV classics in the future. Maybe one of you in the comments has a solution. I sure hope so, so let’s talk about this.
[Editor’s Note: I’ll reiterate that I think modern Teslas (and other modern high-range EVs) will be fine even after 50 years. Per the company “Even after 200,000 miles of usage, our batteries lose just 12% of their capacity on average.” Obviously, time is a factor, and the company only warranties batteries for eight years:
But owners have reported sub-10 percent range losses after 10 years, so that’s good. And with over 300 miles of range, many Teslas will still have useful utility in 50 years even if they do lose one percent per year (which seems plausible). But it’s the earlier EVs with lower range that I’m more concerned about.-DT].
Get out of my head Jason, because I swear I was just thinking about this very issue this morning in the shower (I do a lot of good thinking in the shower). Specifically with regard to the original Tesla Roadster. One can reasonably argue this is a landmark vehicle which deserves preservation. Right around Model S time, Tesla released a Roadster 3.0 upgrade, but it was pricey and I don’t know how many owners took them up on it. Beyond that, I believe Tesla has outright said they aren’t going to support old Roadsters anymore beyond routine service.
I used to prowl the old Fisker forum and some of the owners there were convinced that the aftermarket would fill the void to support their “obvious collectable”, but I told them that was unlikely; if your total possible market is only 2500 cars, what’s the business case?
I suppose down the road there could emerge specialty shops who will take on the challenge of reengineering batteries for vintage, just as Kanter builds parts for old Packards and Rare Parts will reproduce old chassis parts and on and on. I don’t know enough about this tech to say. Unfortunately I think some early EV curiosities like the Think City or the Coda will exist in memory only. Which is too bad, because sometimes the odd antiques are the ones that illustrate just how far we’ve come.
People will find a way to make other batteries fit, or rework them to bypass the battery entirely and run on the ICE only
Will be like when people put a small block Chevy in an old Kaiser or Frazer when they have trouble fixing the old flathead Continental (or want something more highway friendly)
The dead Karmas are ripe fodder for LS swaps.
Do you also eat spaghetti in the shower?
I have never tried that, but I am a big proponent of the Shower Beer. Not in the morning of course.
In the future there will be an entire battery ecosystem similar to ICEs and the overall situation will likely be near the same as classic car ownership. So, yeah, there will be some antique Leafs at the 2055 C&Cs. Of course, we might all be boiling in risen seas, so it may be moot.
Could be worse. I have a copy of The Book of Predictions from the start of the Eighties; one of the experts who wrote for it said that with the future possibilities in transportation, ROADS may be made obsolete at some point, and all the highways get torn out for returning to wild areas and agriculture. What point is it owning a car, when your favorite strip of pavement becomes a memory?
California closed & redeveloped race tracks, yet we still have cars.
I think you’d still need a car, but it would have to be a DeLorean.
I agree that the goal should be standardized and replaceable battery modules, but we haven’t even gotten to that point within a single manufacturer’s line-up.
Part of my work deals with the lighting industry. We used to have things call fluorescent lamps and all the commercial lighting fixtures used them. They were standardized and had ballasts that ran the lamps. These components were replaceable with off the shelf parts.
Now with LED fixtures, there’s no standard LED module and so many more types of drivers (the electronics that power the LED’s). Most of the light fixtures in commercial properties now are just throw away when they get to the end of life. There’s either no way to replace the components or it’s proprietary parts that have to be ordered from the manufacturer. This is a big problem with you have tens of thousands of square feet of something and some start going bad and noone makes that light fixture anymore. You eventually have to replace the whole space.
I think just as big of an issue as the batteries will be the longevity of all the electronic parts in cars. The screens fail, the modules fail, the wiring is much more complicated. It’s going to be very expensive and technically complex to keep these cars on the road (and not just the EV’s).
The main barrier to continued use of EVs is the battery cost. Sure, there are computerized components that may fail and need to be replaced, but that’s true of all modern petroleum fueled vehicles as well. Because of the convergence of chips being used in all manner of computerized devices, it will probably be easier to replace chips in a car from the 2020’s or 2030’s thirty years from now than it is to replace the proprietary one-off chips from vehicles built in the 1990’s or 2000’s. And the EVs that are totally reliant on screens might be problematic, but with all the screen-based devices currently in use, it’s not like that industry is going away, so I think there’ll be support for replacing those parts as well. So, battery cost: The cost of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the past 30 years (https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline). Of course that won’t continue indefinitely and it may be reaching its asymptote already, but they’ll probably still get somewhat cheaper. And recycling batteries will become more and more viable as more “dead” battery backs are available on the used market. This is an industry that is already ramping up and in 30 years, you’ll for sure be able to buy a remanufactured battery pack for your EV at your local O’Reilly’s or Autozone (https://electrek.co/2023/02/21/worlds-largest-battery-recycler-first-us-li-ion-recycling-factory/). I think those factors will bring down the cost of replacing the battery in your classic EV to something much more reasonable in the next few decades.
Considering a lot of the 3G tech is already obsolete, it might not be the batteries that lead to current vehicles’ obsolescence.
Irrelevant given at least in the case of Teslas, you can still connect it to wifi.
Until you can’t. 802.11a devices aren’t that old, but most current home and corporate WiFi APs don’t support them at all.
This seems to get at what is generally one of the biggest issues with EVs and frankly a lot of green tech in general at least rn-is what happens to all these old batteries and old cars-not just “think of the classics” but similar to the way I see way more ’90s camrys on the road than ’90s mercedes once you’re on the 4th owner with 200K miles no one’s going to replace that battery pack. I think serviceability is getting more light but still not nearly enough as a crucial part of going more green.
Would love to see some kind of battery standardization, similar to what we have with AA, AAA, D, C etc give OEs a few shapes and sizes to figure out how to utilize but sets up an architecture that’s much more serviceable in the future and would even possibly allow for upgrading old cars to most current battery tech. If you could easily upgrade the batteries on a Tesla or Leaf you could keep them going for quite a while, electric motors typically have a very long service life.
I’m sure Goldie Wilson III will have it figured out for us.
The battery issue is primary, but the larger issue is the pervasive nature of electronics in modern vehicles.
Old cars are comparatively easy to keep going because they’re largely analog. The speedo doesn’t work? Check the cable, check the gauge mechanism itself, etc.
Cars with all/most key functions that are digital will be more difficult to maintain – especially for hobbyists. Troubleshooting controls that are handled only by a touchscreen? Good luck, Shade-Tree Mechanic.
I agree with you in a way, but on the other hand I see an entire generation of kids that are learning how to code in middle school. If they are the shade-tree mechanics of tomorrow, it might be that they can fix the electronics. As an example of this, look at the various hacks available to turn an old cellphone into a digital gauge cluster for a Tesla, or replace the space-age noises with a fake V12.
I did a metalworking class in high-school, but I doubt there are many kids getting that kind of hands-on training today, so maybe enthusiasts of the future will have a harder time keeping the mechanicals working than the touchscreens. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Automakers will lockout repairability by Joe Lunchbox due to IP concerns
Interesting article. I do agree that the “danger period” will be much more pronounced with electrics in general as they will be passed their battery warranty, but not yet deemed interesting enough to dump a crapload of money into.. it won’t be a simple matter of swapping in a new pack, either. Seeing as makers have gone all-in on brute force charging instead of swappable packs, the standardization and accessibility will not be there for the current crop. But, where there is a will, there is a way.
Someone will offer retrofit batteries and electronics to upgrade to the latest and greatest, and make adapters to plug right in to the existing 30 year old hardware. It will be a niche market, and maybe expensive, but I have no doubt it will happen.
They don’t do this for your 4 year old cellphone.
Maybe not, but they do for my 40 year old RC cars.
Your phone and a replacement are 2 orders of magnitude cheaper than a car, and the software your phone has to run keeps becoming more demanding, so your old phone is worse than a new one even with a new battery.
A car is far more expensive (thus worth fixing vs replacing), and as long as you keep its consumables fresh, its primary function (taking you from here to there, reaching the speed limit, etc) won’t have lost any value. The demands on a car today are broadly the same as they were 50 years ago. The only analogue with phones is drivers and passengers getting fatter and fatter, but that’s not happening as fast or drastically as software and websites a phone needs to support.
Everyone is talking batteries, but it’s going to be the other electronics and SCREENS. A mechanical speedometer in a class Mustang can be repaired. The screen acting as your speedometer/gas gage/temp gage etc. will likely be harder to source a replacement, much less the other chips and software that runs everything. Look no further than Cadillac and their unobtainium taillights. Mechanical can be repaired, replaced, or a replacement “easily” machined. It is the sheer amount of electrical components that will be the issue.
Holy cow – please get out of my head, dude. 🙂
Not only that, but wireless data connections are a threat as well. With the sunset of 3G, a lot of cars were no longer able to connect to the internet. I have to imagine that 4G, 5G, PotatoG, etc. will also sunset at some point leaving these cars without the ability to do certain things.
Are these wireless connections required for the car to work? If not, I don’t see this as a big deal. It is like having a car with a cassette deck. It isn’t useful anymore, but it isn’t hurting anything either.
You could always get aftermarket gauges to replace the broken screens. I’m sure it is possible to develop an aftermarket speedometer and battery gauge for an old EV. As for the rest of the screens, duct tape a few ipads over the broken ones. It will be adequate.
I think there is a big piece missing here; while the batteries are considered sealed an non-repairable; that isn’t actually true. As the tech spreads people will continue to reverse engineer the packs and figure out how to replace individual cells, or upgrade the entire pack to newer tech. The BMS expects certain things from the pack, and that’s emulateable even if the pack itself can’t do it. The crux of the argument here is that manufacturers don’t support these efforts today, and likely won’t in the future, that won’t stop determined individuals from DIY if the resources are scarce enough.
The big problem with packs that I seen another commenter point out is that many of them are becoming structural components of the car these days, which makes serviceability of them incredibly hard and possibly something that’ll endanger the safety of the vehicle itself.
“Are we currently building cars that are truly disposable, and don’t even have the option to be kept as classics decades hence??”
Yes, yes, we are. For all practical purposes at least. There will always be a small contingent of rich folks that can afford to throw a wad of cash at preserving or basically damn near reconstructing any kind of car that their heart desires. For the average middle class or even upper-middle class enthusiast, especially one who does DIY wrenching? I have my doubts that this upcoming crop of vehicles will be attainable/preservable as classics.
It’s not even just the batteries, although those are a very formidable barrier. The dang things have just gotten so complex. New vehicles have thousands of microchips; every last thing is computer driven now. I could be wrong but it seems like as the hardware becomes outdated/obselete or just simply fails over time, this will be a difficult problem for most folks to solve.
Add to the fact that there’s dozens of tiny little electric motors now running every previously manual function (glove box, rear hatch, glove box, retractable door handles) and many cars now have CPU driven screens without redundant buttons, and I see most of these cars not lasting more than 20 years, generously. They’ve succumbed to our proclivity for our latest tech devices and will be disposable/discarded like our tech devices, because they’re just so intertwined with the operation of the car now. Maybe I’m a luddite or I’m just getting old (well not that old, I’m 30), but this seems like an enormous barrier to me.
As someone who collects old cameras: Batteries are a nightmare.
But here’s an unexpected wrench to throw in there: battery chemistry. For example, into the 70s most cameras used mercury cells, which were consistent but, you know, mercury. That’s not something you want! So all the mercury batteries were discontinued, which is great until you have to shove a bunch of tinfoil into your Minolta Hi-matic to compensate for voltage and shape problems.
How are you going to adapt the vintage EVs as battery chemistry changes and the old kind is steadily taken off the market?
Ha I’m also into old cameras and was thinking about this, but the difference is you can get a silver battery that fits in a HI-Matic and with some tin foil or a installing a diode on the circuit (I used to work at a repair shop you) can make it work with that battery because the shapes and voltages are still somewhat standardized down to a handful of common batteries. If every camera came with a unique battery shape and voltage (the situation with cars) none of them would be getting made besides maybe the top 2-4 most popular cameras. I’d love to see a la this example maybe there’s a handful of standardized sizes manufacturers can work around-OR-relatively easily replaceable internals (don’t know if this is technically feasible)
Interested in a nice Konica set, including a Hexanon 57mm f1.4?
You’ve got to think of future “classic” electric cars less like current classic cars and more like vintage electronics. There are plenty of people out there who collect vintage computers (Hi, 8-Bit Guy and LGR), MP3 players (oh, hello there, DankPods), and even particularly well-designed vintage toasters (what’s up, Technology Connections?). For all intents and purposes, these items are obsolete, but these collectors are drawn to them because their designs are appealing or they represent technological advances of their day.
I’m sure the same will be true of electric cars once they reach a certain age. A 2013 Nissan Leaf won’t be a practical daily driver in 2048, but a ’57 Chevy wasn’t a practical daily-driver 35 years after it was new either. People kept them because they were cool, and cool rarely equals practical.
Replacing an electric car’s battery may be necessary to keep it at least mildly functional, but if we’re talking about a weekend toy / cars & coffee conversation piece? I don’t think you really need the full battery range because you won’t be taking it on road trips or even necessarily commuting with it every day. You can get by on 10% of the range when you’re dealing with a classic EV.
I believe that we’ll see plenty of EVs that reach “classic” status, and I look forward to talking to the owners who love those cars at future shows and meets. I bet they’ll have some fun stories about how they’ve kept them going.
Yeah, but an old toaster is a pretty simple thing, you plug it into an outlet and use it, outlets work the same in the 2020s as they did in the 1940s. Capacitors, old-fashioned simple microchip models, and vacuum tubes are still being made, so new replacement parts are available for a lot of old electronics.
One of the serious issues, though, is CRTs – for luggable or all-in-one computers, those are getting to be a problem – when they fail, they can’t be rebuilt, the last CRT rebuilder closed down a decade ago, and they can’t be replaced, as new ones are not being made, and old computers and terminals often had weird sizes and shapes that are rarer and rarer in good shape. Eventually, old TVs and computer monitors and also all in one computers will not be fixable as the supply of good picture tubes will inevitably be exhausted
What’s not practical about driving a 57 Chevy? Essentially it does everything any new car does, just simpler tech. Add a modern drivetrain and brakes and it’s really no different then. I daily drive a 62 continental and have taken it nearly cross country twice… It’s updated enough to drive easier and is still very practical.
Bingo – ’71 VW Superbeetle, ’71 Karmann Ghia, ’62 Sunbeam Alpine, all daily driven here.
“What’s not practical about driving a 57 Chevy?”
Assuming it’s stock, crappy brakes, crappy fuel economy (compared to modern cars of similar size), crappy handling, an increased level of maintenance, a lack of modern features like USB ports or a good stereo, a lack of safety features like ABS/seatbelts/strong structure that protects occupants in a crash… shall I go on?
I’ve driven some of those old cars as well.
That’s why I DON’T own one and know enough to know that I never want to DD one.
Please tell me more about the Continental. It’s a bucket list car for me. What mods have you made?
Everything has been done. It was and is my dream car find me on Instagram @sykolincoln
The ’57 Chevy as a practical Daily Driver 35 years later (or even today) is a poor analogy.
…ask anyone in Cuba. And I have worked with people over the past 40+ years that DD a 20-30 year old car.
My newest car is 40 years old, so my options for driving only extend backwards from there. Today I drove my 56-year-old car to work and with any luck it will get me home tonight as well.
The toaster example doesn’t fit because that was an entirely mechanical system, which is one of the amazing things about it. The reason those can run practically forever is that they’re just a bunch of metal wires hooked up to a switch in a very particular way such that they make perfect toast. Those toasters will likely outlive every EV on the road today.
Makes me wonder the actual % of knowledgeable CAR people here….everyone else talks about the battery being an issue, while not talking about the rest of the vehicle.
Why? Replacing the ball joints or cv axle isn’t any different on a Tesla than it is on an 80s Honda effectively. The aftermarket already has avenues to produce and sell those parts. The rest of the CAR stuff isn’t what will make these hard or impossible to keep on the road. The electronics and battery are the key difference making them appear difficult.
Missing the point…. That stuff is no big deal, metal parts take years to fatigue, wear and brake…. But the dash plastic crumbling to bits… Wiring insulation splitting, plastic engine/ outside components breaking and failing. …everyone is worrying about the battery tech and no one is giving a passing glance to the condition of the rest of the car….like near everyone in here loves the look of a 2000 tan Camry or something
…lames
People aren’t mentioning those things here because they affect EVs as much as ICE cars, and we’re discussing the longevity of EVs with respect to their differences with ICE cars.
They’re valid concerns but completely off topic here.
Lets see what happens to the 3 (13 year old) Tesla roadsters that were just found in a shipping container, that were never used or charged.
… * Batteries Not Included.
What 3 Roadsters do you speak of? Can you provide a link?
My guess is they’ll be taken in for service to a place like this:
https://grubermotors.com/services/roadster-ess-main-battery-pack-services-pricing/
Here you go https://www.thedrive.com/news/3-undelivered-2010-tesla-roadsters-lost-in-shipping-containers-are-up-for-sale
A resounding NO, why? Not only battery and electrical issues …but the plastics won’t last… As a kustom shop owner 90s and 2000+ cars most plastics are failing… From engine components, exterior trim, whole interiors as well…. Unless some are kept in a closed environment and uses sparingly there’s no way someone is going to pull a Tesla , or Chevy bolt or anything else from this time from the weeds 20 years from now, restore it and take off on it.
Not happening! We’re now in the age of throw away cars.
Now?
K-cars and basically every US made sedan made between 1973 and 1998 is disposable, and has already fallen apart.
For some reason, I can no longer edit my first comment, so here is what I was trying to add:
Anyways, there are plenty of cars built later than the ones we think of as “classic” that will be tough to keep on the road if they aren’t already. Cars from the 60s-70s are simple enough and often share enough parts that even unpopular ones can be kept alive if an owner has the will and funds to do so.
But is it even possible to keep alive an economy/”normal” car from the 80s or later if you wanted to? Like if I made it my life goal to factory restore a 1991 Cavalier to concours condition with all new parts, could I do so even for a million dollars? Some stuff simply doesn’t exist anymore and can’t be rebuilt in a garage like a 60s car. No one is hoarding Cavalier parts like they do for enthusiast type vehicles. And millions of Cavaliers were sold!!!
EV or ICE, the expensive and rare stuff will be kept alive by dedicated collectors, and the cheap stuff will deteriorate exponentially after factory support ends.
Oh man…. You haven’t been to some of the dedicated groups for cavillers and others on Facebook huh? There are in fact huge hoarders of these cars and parts, many NOS parts as well still available.
That is astounding to me and I apparently stand corrected, but surely there are some formerly common cars out there without a rabid fan base.
Think of a small car from late 70s into the middle 90s…. Do a Facebook search and I almost bet my favorite pupper there’s more than a few pages of dedicated groups to each and every model.. I had to fix a 86 Omni a few years ago… Forums were dead….hoped on Facebook on within a few days I had NOS parts being delivered to my shop to get a car going… An 85 Omni…. NOS parts…. Now….fast forward look up Kia and Hyundai groups…these fanbois are just as wild about them as well. There will be a way to keep a car going most likely, but taking one and getting it going after it sat behind someone’s house for 20 years is no bueno.
The Hyundai / Kia fanbois are busy on chat forums discussing the most cost-effective USB connector to use when boostin’ a joy ride.
“But is it even possible to keep alive an economy/’normal’ car from the 80s or later if you wanted to?”
Speaking as the owner of a 1982 Austin Allegro 3, it is possible. Not always easy, but possible. I imagine it would be easier if I weren’t trying to do this on a continent where these things were never sold in the first place, but that’s my fault for buying it from the guy who brought it here when he decided to move on to something else.
I have a ’91 Yugo, which was built in a country that technically doesn’t even exist anymore, and I have three sources today for NOS parts direct from Serbia. One guy I’ve bought parts from even has a couple NOS Cabrio convertible tops available, and they only imported 72 of those to the US.
It gets more difficult and more costly, but the stuff is out there if you’re determined enough. Also, there is a lot of cool stuff happening with 3D printing that is already solving a lot of the plastic parts issue.
Former ’75 Opel Manta owner. There are still beautiful mostly original ones for sale . And parts . They were never especially popular in the US yet they are still well supported .
I can tell you what’s going to kill your 89 Ford – the TFI module. There’s a limited supply of good Motorcraft ones, and the aftermarket ones are junk.
2048? If the world still exists, or civilization anyway, everyone will be driving classic restomods sporting fusion reactors. Problem solved. Now where’s my free Bubbleup and rainbow stew?
You’ll never get your car fusion reactors, as the potential future Engineer that could have provided that technology was aborted in April ’23.
It seems like the motors and running gear aren’t that difficult to replace in EVs, so the battery is the only issue. I could see a scenario where you swap the drivetrain with a modern unit and add a battery in a different location. If your goal is a functional vehicle to drive locally or to shows, it wouldn’t be hard to add a modest capacity battery to the trunk or frunk. You can disconnect the original battery and leave it in place to avoid messing with the structure of the car. It may not have equivalent range to the original battery (maybe it will with advances in battery tech?), but it would be adequate.
A lot of people aren’t interested in going to shows less than 150 miles or so away, or maybe I’m the weird one?
I use them as excuses to visit towns or larger events I want to check out anyway, not really interested in getting up at the ass crack of dawn just to sit around down the street from places I go to everyday.
Wouldn’t be interested in owning any classic car that couldn’t handle a long road trip a few times a month, which is what I do with the one I have now
You could always trailer the EV if you really wanted to bring a limited range EV to a show.
I generally go to local shows (fortunately I have a lot near where I live) so it wouldn’t be an issue for me. I’m not saying a small trunk mounted battery is the solution for everyone, but it is a possibility.
What’s the point of owning a car if you’re going to trailer it? That never made sense to me
Kindrid spirits my guy! DID WE JUST BECOME BEST FREINDS?!
There is a difference between not road tripping your vehicle and not driving it. I have a ’77 F250 that I drive a few times a week. I don’t take it on long trips since it gets 7 mpg and isn’t fun to drive at highway speeds. If I wanted to take it to a show out of state, I’d probably trailer it.
Yeah, that’s a different case, I suppose, a truck built in the era when people weren’t expecting trucks to necessarily be daily transportation and they therefore weren’t really designed as such
Ahh hell… I drive an excursion around as well…. I raise you one extra mile per gallon lol
I’m busting in to say that is great to know there are other vintage car die-hards that like to roadtrip. I just drove my ’76 BMW to 4 states in a weekend and my ’64 Corvair on a 900 mile trip. There is nothing better than the convergence of the perfect car in the perfect place at the perfect time. Sometimes even with the perfect companion.
I’m headed 350 miles away this weekend for a car show and driving my 62 continental there. Grab a funky abnb and also site see! Best thing ever!
The problem with this though, at least as I understand, is in a lot of cases they’re utilizing batteries as structural members in the chassis, so unfortunately I don’t know that it would be that easy to swap to a newer tech battery in the future?
Leave the dead battery where it is and disconnect it.
The modern battery would go in the trunk/frunk. There is a company in Europe (Muxsan) that sells a range extender battery for the first-generation Leaf that goes in the trunk. It raises the floor a bit, but you still have most of the original trunk space. I’m thinking of something like that. Batteries will get smaller over time, so I think it is realistic that a replacement battery could be added to the cargo area of EVs.
Maybe rip out the battery pack (if it’s degrading in a less than desirable way) and replace it with a low-cost frame that hits all the relevant connection points? Assuming the tech has improved and the new pack is smaller than the one you’re removing, it would be like those adapters they use to fit old radios in the double-DIN slot on the dashboard.
I realize this is non-trivial but humans are pretty good at conjuring up ways to fit a square peg in a round hole.
In 2048, I fully expect to have an article from The Autopian uploaded to my neural implant from Stephen Walter Gossin about which of his 2011 Leafs (Leaves?) he needs to sell.
I suspect the most popular EVs for collecting and restoration will eventually have aftermarket battery packs from Dorman (or a competitor), but anything else, you’ll be stuck filling the frunk with a cobbled together homebrew solution (or finding a place to install a small engine of some sort).
Means you’ll likely be able to restore an early Model S, but a Coda will eventually be either a huge paperweight or need to be extensively re-engineered and modified beyond what would even be worthwhile
Similar to how you can still buy loads of new parts for a Model T, but you’re not going to find much support for restoring a Rickenbacker.
I was at a NAPA convention a couple years back and asked the Dorman folks if they were going to start offering replacement batteries for Leafs, since they already offer packs for popular hybrids. They said they were “keeping an eye on that opportunity” but as of yet they still don’t offer anything, and the oldest Leafs are now 12 years old. A vehicle that age is typically right in the aftermarket’s wheelhouse, so if not now, then never.
I still don’t understand why they don’t have an offering for the Volt either.
Bold assumption here that Tesla won’t still be selling the Model S virtually unchanged in 2048.
That platform IS old, and that doesn’t help its collector-car status.
Pretty sure the upgraded battery tech will bolt right in since the rest of the car will still be the same as it ever was.