One of our biggest stories last week was a report about a study that showed 46% of EV owners in the United States say they’re going to go back to a gas-powered car. At the time I wrote the story, I lacked an actual copy of the study, so I was just going on what was already reported.
After posting the story I got a lot of feedback from people stating it was “fake news” and wanting to get more details on how the study was done, with a lot of chatter on X/Twitter over the findings.
I’ve now got a copy of the McKinsey Mobility Consumer Pulse (MMCP) study, produced by McKinsey’s Center for Future Mobility (MCFM), and I now have a lot of answers to the various questions people had about the study.
What Is This Study? Who Answered The Questions?
The report, which I will refer to as the MFCM study, surveyed more than 30,000 respondents globally who “regularly use mobility” and asked more than 200 questions about mobility, car ownership, and consumer preferences.
McKinsey is a massive consulting firm and “mobility” is of interest to governments, investors, and large companies (all of which buy services from firms like McKinsey). Specifically, the company says the MCFM:
“[H]as worked with stakeholders across the mobility ecosystem by providing independent and integrated evidence about possible future-mobility scenarios. With our unique, bottom-up modeling approach, our insights enable an end-to-end analytics journey through the future of mobility—from consumer needs to a modal mix across urban/rural areas, sales, value pools, and life cycle sustainability.
Since 2021, the survey has included consumers from the 15 biggest auto markets (ranging from massive markets like the United States and China to smaller ones like Norway and South Africa). Overall, the countries included account for more than 80% of global sales volume.
According to the MFCM, the survey was conducted in February of this year.
Where Did That 46% Number Come From?
Here’s the question that was asked of current EV owners:
How likely are you to switch back to a traditional combustion engine vehicle based on your current experience with the electric vehicle you own?
Globally, the average number is about 29%, but you can see the full chart here:
The country where someone is most likely to switch back to an internal combustion engine-powered car is Australia, at almost half, followed by the United States and Brazil. The reasoning?
I don’t have a breakdown for American consumers, but globally the biggest reasons for switching back were:
- Total cost of ownership too high (34.5%)
- Cannot charge at home (33.8%)
- Needing to worry about changing is too stressful (31.9%)
As someone who regularly borrows electric cars but cannot charge at home, I can relate to this. Public charging simply isn’t good enough for me and I live in a relatively dense urban environment.
More People Than Ever Want EVs Globally, They Just Want Them To Be Cheaper
The largest barrier to ownership might be practical concerns around charging, but that doesn’t mean people aren’t interested in electric cars. The number of respondents globally who say that they’re going to purchase a BEV (battery electric vehicle) for their next car grew to 17.6% this year, up from 14% in December of 2021.
Overall, 70% of respondents said they’d either be getting a BEV or PHEV next or, at the very least, only expected to own one more gas-powered car before switching over to an electric car.
That, too, conforms with my experience as I plan to buy a hybrid and then, hopefully, an electric car if charging around me improves.
Still, the reasons why people haven’t switched over yet have a lot to do with the fact that EVs are too expensive in most places. The top reasons given for not wanting to switch were:
- Too expensive (45%)
- Charging concerns (33%)
- Driving range concerns (29%)
Obviously, the “expensive” issue is geography dependent. In China, there are plenty of affordable electric cars so only 9% of EV skeptics interviewed there were worried about cost of ownership. Norway was the only other country that low, at 29% of EV skeptics, but Norway has become the largest EV market proportionally due to extremely high subsidies for electric cars.
And, going deeper into consumers in the United States, many are likely to postpone a new EV purchase because of “the current economic situation” as you can see in this graphic:
This isn’t just in the EV market. The average age of American cars is now 14 years as people hold onto their cars, EV or ICE, a lot longer. There are many ways to interpret “the current economic situation” and I think a lot of it has to do with higher uncertainty and higher interest rates.
People Also Want More Range
Here’s an interesting tidbit from the study:
Range expectations have been increasing over time (+ ~30% in the past 5 years) and are outpacing actual range improvements: Since 2022 consumers demand 5% more range, while actual range increased by only 2%
As of the most recent study, people expect at least 291 miles of maximum range, on average, before they’d consider getting a new electric car. This is a little higher than many vehicles currently for sale, but it puts quasi-affordable vehicles like the Tesla Model Y, Mach-E, and Equinox EV on the table.
I Don’t Think This Is Entirely Bad News
If you love electric cars or think everyone should be driving an electric car then this is not what you want to hear. It’s hard enough to get someone to switch to an electric car and hearing that almost half of owners in the United States want a gas-powered car isn’t encouraging.
The study didn’t ask if those people would consider buying a hybrid or a PHEV when going back to a gas-powered car, but that’s not an unreasonable assumption (especially if those owners have access to home charging).
While there are many good electric cars on the market, the next generation of EVs will hopefully better meet range requirements and cost less money. If automakers can deliver a little more range for a little less money then new consumers seem to be there according to this study.
At the same time, it’s important for the industry and the government to work together to solve charging issues, especially in denser urban corridors.
I actually own a PHEV (Family car) and 2 electric cars as commuters for my spouse and myself . Thanks to federal rebates and big discounts it made more sense to our household to proceed that way, including the installation of solar panels and two Level 2 chargers. Gas prices fluctuate a lot and we are saving $200 worth of gas per electric vehicle per month.
If we are going far we just take the PHEV minivan with the kids and dogs while we average 30mpg, not bad. I know resale values are no bueno but that helps the used market to move units to other folks.
At this point everyone should be considering at least a Hybrid but the only ones available are either expensive too or dont have rebates at all.
I actually own a PHEV (Family car) and 2 electric cars as commuters for my spouse and myself . Thanks to federal rebates and big discounts it made more sense to our household to proceed that way, including the installation of solar panels and two Level 2 chargers. Gas prices fluctuate a lot and we are saving $200 worth of gas per electric vehicle per month.
If we are going far we just take the PHEV minivan with the kids and dogs while we average 30mpg, not bad. I know resale values are no bueno but that helps the used market to move units to other folks.
At this point everyone should be considering at least a Hybrid but the only ones available are either expensive too or dont have rebates at all.
I don’t think we will be having this discussion a few years from now. Battery prices are dropping fast and faster charging is around the corner.
When you look at the offerings of CATL, BYD and LG the 3 largest battery manufactures, it impressive too see the gains in energy density, price and charging speed these companies are making. This tech is being exported out of Asia and into the US by deals like Ford licensing CATL battery tech for their new Blue Oval battery plant. It is not just Ford, every OEM seems to have a battery deal with an Asian supplier.
Today in China, you can buy an BYD Dolphin for the equivalent $14k US. https://electrek.co/2024/02/23/byd-launches-new-dolphin-ev-14k-price-war/
We might not see prices this low here in the US for another 2 to 3 years, but the factories and supply chains are being built as we speak.
One thing I don’t understand. Do people not have 240v? I get if you live in an apartment, but charging stations at apartment are more of an amenity. Every house I have ever rented or owned had 240v for the clothes dryer. A 240v level 2 charger is like $500. A Ford Mach E will fully charge with level 2 charging in 11 hours. 27miles per charge hour. I’m surprised Galpin isn’t giving them away with every EV they sell. Or have maybe even an electrician on staff to install them for EV buyers.
I’m no electrician, but my understanding is that not all 240V outlets are created equal. A family member just bought a Model Y and already had a 240V RV outlet in the garage, but it apparently didn’t have enough amperage to support the charger at a sufficient rate. So the electrician had to run a new outlet. I’m sure somebody more knowledgeable than me can explain why
Yeah most level 2 chargers are up to 50amp. So you would have charge at 30 amps at least to make it worth it, on 240v. Any lower and you might as well just use a 110v charger. Definitely correct for your family member. Not worth risking blowing the breaker all the time if you don’t have the amps.
Absolutely not true. It’s much easier to think in terms of wattage (voltage x amps).
Most US houses don’t have 120V circuits rated for more 20amps (15A is the most common). Say you have a 20A circuit so you can safely pull around 17amps.
120V x 17amps = 2040W, which is going to take a VERY long time to charge modern EVs.
240V x 17amps = 4080W, which is on the slow side of level 2 charging, but still double the output of 120V.
Even a low-amperage 240V outlet is better than a 120V circuit unless you have extremely oddball high-amperage 120V circuits.
I see what your saying and your right. 240v is going to almost always be better than 110v charging. I had a look at my breaker board. My 240v breakers range from 40amps for the dryer and oven to 60amps for the air conditions. Every house is different, but automatically assuming that it will cost tens of thousands to add a charger is the point I wanted to make. I bungled it up a bit and appreciate the feed back cause you are right.
Depending on where your AC compressor is, and whether you need AC at night, you could “unplug” (probably more complicated) the AC and plug in the EV for a few hours and voila!
My house has a 240V outlet behind the gas dryer, so, unused. This is right next to the garage. If I ever decide to get an EV, I will repurpose that outlet.
People always say, “…which is going to take a VERY long time…” but they forget to add, “…from empty.”
Say you drive a garbage EV that gobbles up 500W-h per mile. You have an average commute of 42 miles per day. 42 miles divided by 2 miles per kW-h = 21kW-h to recharge.
21kW-h takes 11:40 to come out of a standard 120v outlet. That feels like a long time, but if you get home and plug in at 6pm and don’t leave the next morning until 7am, your car has been fully charged and waiting for over an hour. This describes my exact scenario; dailying an EV with only a 120v outlet for charging wouldn’t slow me down at all.
Please note that I modified the charge rate slightly, as American outlets are generally rated for only 15 amps continuous, not 17. So my time estimate is a bit more pessimistic – and still sufficient for the typical daily driver, especially one in a big heavy EV gobbling up the gigawatts.
In the event you can only get by with a 240v 30a circuit like for a dryer, that’s still 4x faster than a single outlet. Your car would be fully charged by bedtime.
Eh, that’s assuming charging is 100% efficient and continuous though, which it isn’t. At the best of times (mild weather, start charging around 20%), I see a charge rate on a 120V outlet of about 1.2kW with the dual volage portable charger that came with the car. I just did a test in my garage, and with my car at 75% charge and that 1.2kW charge rate, it’s estimating over 26 hours to charge to 100% (adding a little over 22kW in the process). I have no special charge rate or time of use limits set. Granted, that’s hardly a scientific test, and there are a lot of variables that go into charge rates, but still goes to show how far off realistic charge rates are from ideal.
Real story: We rented a house for a winter trip and drove our EV. Temperatures averaged around 15F most of the trip. I could park the car in an insulated garage, but it was still probably in the high 30s in the garage. I plugged in to a 120V outlet overnight at about 15% charge and saw the next morning the charge was only 17%. The vast majority of the charger wattage was being used solely to heat the batteries and keep them warm enough to charge effectively.
That right there convinced me 120V charging wouldn’t work and I’ve never used it since. At home I have a 48A 240V charger on a 60A dedicated circuit. Since the charger is right next to my panel, and my house already has a 200A panel, it was only a couple hundred bucks for an electrician to add the circuit on top of the $600 charger.
My home charger will fully charge the car from dead in about 10 hours, but in reality it’s usually around 20% when I plug it in so it’s closer to 7-ish hours. Either way, it’s always fully charged in the morning.
It gets better than that. a 240V breaker takes 2 slots, so it can effectively provide 17 amps from each one, or a total of ~35 amps (for this comparison – it’ll usually let you provide 50-60 amps from a 240 breaker.) So you get 4x the power from a 240 outlet as you can get from 1 120 outlet.
Like my hot tub – it can run on either 120 or 240. On 120 it uses about 1500 watts for the heater, and can only run the jets on high if the heater is off. On 240 the heater uses 6000 watts and can run the jets at the same time.
That’s kind of odd. I could see it with a 120V TT30 RV outlet where you only get 2.4KW (or maybe even ~1.3KW), but a 240V RV outlet is going to be 50A nominal and 40A usable for ~9.6KW of charging. L2 chargers are either 40A (needs 50A circuit) or 48A (needs 60A circuit), but most of the time the 48A ones can just be capped at a lower amperage via a setting.
Personally, unless it was a very short run where I could do it relatively cheaply as a “while I’m at it”, I wouldn’t bother upgrading a 50A outlet to 60A for an EVSE. It’s going to fully charge overnight either way.
I think it’s the installation cost of the charger that’s the problem for many people. Sure, if you have your electrical panel in the garage it’ll be reasonable cheap, but any other option (carport, driveway, etc.) is going to cost a lot more to install. That’s if you have room in your panel for another 240V breaker.
I don’t think we will be having this discussion a few years from now. Battery prices are dropping fast and faster charging is around the corner.
When you look at the offerings of CATL, BYD and LG the 3 largest battery manufactures, it impressive too see the gains in energy density, price and charging speed these companies are making. This tech is being exported out of Asia and into the US by deals like Ford licensing CATL battery tech for their new Blue Oval battery plant. It is not just Ford, every OEM seems to have a battery deal with an Asian supplier.
Today in China, you can buy an BYD Dolphin for the equivalent $14k US. https://electrek.co/2024/02/23/byd-launches-new-dolphin-ev-14k-price-war/
We might not see prices this low here in the US for another 2 to 3 years, but the factories and supply chains are being built as we speak.
One thing I don’t understand. Do people not have 240v? I get if you live in an apartment, but charging stations at apartment are more of an amenity. Every house I have ever rented or owned had 240v for the clothes dryer. A 240v level 2 charger is like $500. A Ford Mach E will fully charge with level 2 charging in 11 hours. 27miles per charge hour. I’m surprised Galpin isn’t giving them away with every EV they sell. Or have maybe even an electrician on staff to install them for EV buyers.
I’m no electrician, but my understanding is that not all 240V outlets are created equal. A family member just bought a Model Y and already had a 240V RV outlet in the garage, but it apparently didn’t have enough amperage to support the charger at a sufficient rate. So the electrician had to run a new outlet. I’m sure somebody more knowledgeable than me can explain why
Yeah most level 2 chargers are up to 50amp. So you would have charge at 30 amps at least to make it worth it, on 240v. Any lower and you might as well just use a 110v charger. Definitely correct for your family member. Not worth risking blowing the breaker all the time if you don’t have the amps.
Absolutely not true. It’s much easier to think in terms of wattage (voltage x amps).
Most US houses don’t have 120V circuits rated for more 20amps (15A is the most common). Say you have a 20A circuit so you can safely pull around 17amps.
120V x 17amps = 2040W, which is going to take a VERY long time to charge modern EVs.
240V x 17amps = 4080W, which is on the slow side of level 2 charging, but still double the output of 120V.
Even a low-amperage 240V outlet is better than a 120V circuit unless you have extremely oddball high-amperage 120V circuits.
I see what your saying and your right. 240v is going to almost always be better than 110v charging. I had a look at my breaker board. My 240v breakers range from 40amps for the dryer and oven to 60amps for the air conditions. Every house is different, but automatically assuming that it will cost tens of thousands to add a charger is the point I wanted to make. I bungled it up a bit and appreciate the feed back cause you are right.
Depending on where your AC compressor is, and whether you need AC at night, you could “unplug” (probably more complicated) the AC and plug in the EV for a few hours and voila!
My house has a 240V outlet behind the gas dryer, so, unused. This is right next to the garage. If I ever decide to get an EV, I will repurpose that outlet.
People always say, “…which is going to take a VERY long time…” but they forget to add, “…from empty.”
Say you drive a garbage EV that gobbles up 500W-h per mile. You have an average commute of 42 miles per day. 42 miles divided by 2 miles per kW-h = 21kW-h to recharge.
21kW-h takes 11:40 to come out of a standard 120v outlet. That feels like a long time, but if you get home and plug in at 6pm and don’t leave the next morning until 7am, your car has been fully charged and waiting for over an hour. This describes my exact scenario; dailying an EV with only a 120v outlet for charging wouldn’t slow me down at all.
Please note that I modified the charge rate slightly, as American outlets are generally rated for only 15 amps continuous, not 17. So my time estimate is a bit more pessimistic – and still sufficient for the typical daily driver, especially one in a big heavy EV gobbling up the gigawatts.
In the event you can only get by with a 240v 30a circuit like for a dryer, that’s still 4x faster than a single outlet. Your car would be fully charged by bedtime.
Eh, that’s assuming charging is 100% efficient and continuous though, which it isn’t. At the best of times (mild weather, start charging around 20%), I see a charge rate on a 120V outlet of about 1.2kW with the dual volage portable charger that came with the car. I just did a test in my garage, and with my car at 75% charge and that 1.2kW charge rate, it’s estimating over 26 hours to charge to 100% (adding a little over 22kW in the process). I have no special charge rate or time of use limits set. Granted, that’s hardly a scientific test, and there are a lot of variables that go into charge rates, but still goes to show how far off realistic charge rates are from ideal.
Real story: We rented a house for a winter trip and drove our EV. Temperatures averaged around 15F most of the trip. I could park the car in an insulated garage, but it was still probably in the high 30s in the garage. I plugged in to a 120V outlet overnight at about 15% charge and saw the next morning the charge was only 17%. The vast majority of the charger wattage was being used solely to heat the batteries and keep them warm enough to charge effectively.
That right there convinced me 120V charging wouldn’t work and I’ve never used it since. At home I have a 48A 240V charger on a 60A dedicated circuit. Since the charger is right next to my panel, and my house already has a 200A panel, it was only a couple hundred bucks for an electrician to add the circuit on top of the $600 charger.
My home charger will fully charge the car from dead in about 10 hours, but in reality it’s usually around 20% when I plug it in so it’s closer to 7-ish hours. Either way, it’s always fully charged in the morning.
It gets better than that. a 240V breaker takes 2 slots, so it can effectively provide 17 amps from each one, or a total of ~35 amps (for this comparison – it’ll usually let you provide 50-60 amps from a 240 breaker.) So you get 4x the power from a 240 outlet as you can get from 1 120 outlet.
Like my hot tub – it can run on either 120 or 240. On 120 it uses about 1500 watts for the heater, and can only run the jets on high if the heater is off. On 240 the heater uses 6000 watts and can run the jets at the same time.
I think it’s the installation cost of the charger that’s the problem for many people. Sure, if you have your electrical panel in the garage it’ll be reasonable cheap, but any other option (carport, driveway, etc.) is going to cost a lot more to install. That’s if you have room in your panel for another 240V breaker.
I recently rented a Tesla Model 3 for a 1,000 mile road trip. I enjoyed driving it, but Supercharger stations were surprisingly expensive ($0.44/kwh) compared to the cost of charging at home ($0.08/kwh). We ended up spending about $100 to charge during the trip, although that number doesn’t account for free charging at the VRBO where we stayed. A 40 mpg car (like our 2018 Camry) would have cost us about $125 in gas ($5.00/gallon in CA at the time), so it’s not like the Tesla saved us much money in fuel costs.
I came back from the trip with a few thoughts. One, driving electric is really fun and I would absolutely consider buying one. Two, the cost of public charging is (in my view) unreasonably expensive which negates much of the upside of owning a cheap car (the theoretical cheaper running costs). I foresee a world where charging stations are plentiful but still expensive, EV station owners, like gas station owners, will be sure to price gouge where they can.
Third, I think that manufacturers should focus on cheap EVs. $30k or less before tax credits would be perfect. I like driving electric and would consider buying one, but not as an only car. I understand that not everyone can feasibly own multiple vehicles, but a cheap electric car for daily driving– commuting, running errands, etc.– would be perfect. This would keep the miles off my larger gas powered vehicles which are ideal for road trips, hauling the entire family around, and other tasks. Cheap at-home charging would save me a lot of money on gas each month. I really am coming to view electric as part of the overall solution to improving global admissions, not as the panacea.
I recently rented a Tesla Model 3 for a 1,000 mile road trip. I enjoyed driving it, but Supercharger stations were surprisingly expensive ($0.44/kwh) compared to the cost of charging at home ($0.08/kwh). We ended up spending about $100 to charge during the trip, although that number doesn’t account for free charging at the VRBO where we stayed. A 40 mpg car (like our 2018 Camry) would have cost us about $125 in gas ($5.00/gallon in CA at the time), so it’s not like the Tesla saved us much money in fuel costs.
I came back from the trip with a few thoughts. One, driving electric is really fun and I would absolutely consider buying one. Two, the cost of public charging is (in my view) unreasonably expensive which negates much of the upside of owning a cheap car (the theoretical cheaper running costs). I foresee a world where charging stations are plentiful but still expensive, EV station owners, like gas station owners, will be sure to price gouge where they can.
Third, I think that manufacturers should focus on cheap EVs. $30k or less before tax credits would be perfect. I like driving electric and would consider buying one, but not as an only car. I understand that not everyone can feasibly own multiple vehicles, but a cheap electric car for daily driving– commuting, running errands, etc.– would be perfect. This would keep the miles off my larger gas powered vehicles which are ideal for road trips, hauling the entire family around, and other tasks. Cheap at-home charging would save me a lot of money on gas each month. I really am coming to view electric as part of the overall solution to improving global admissions, not as the panacea.
I build a lot of things and as much as I swear at tools with cords, it’s the damn battery powered stuff that’s far more frustrating and I swear I’ve seen no benefit from going to li-ion except they’re a little lighter, like I GAF when it dies in the middle of something. Result is that I have a lot of long extension cords for the real tools. This doesn’t add much to the EV conversation, I just wanted to rant about tools. Oh, wait, I can add that this is why I like the idea of a hybrid instead.
I build a lot of things and as much as I swear at tools with cords, it’s the damn battery powered stuff that’s far more frustrating and I swear I’ve seen no benefit from going to li-ion except they’re a little lighter, like I GAF when it dies in the middle of something. Result is that I have a lot of long extension cords for the real tools. This doesn’t add much to the EV conversation, I just wanted to rant about tools. Oh, wait, I can add that this is why I like the idea of a hybrid instead.
This tracks. I have a lovely garage, and I would consider an EV, but my house is 40+ years old, and so is the power. Installing a circuit for an electric car charger requires retrofitting my entire power panel, at a cost of about $12,000–and that’s not counting the actual EV charger.
So no EV in my future.
Are you sure? Assuming you can get 1KW/hr and 3mi/KW that’s 500 miles per week you’d be able to recharge using only 110V if it was plugged in the whole time. I have a friend that commutes 180 miles per week, drives another 40 or so for errands, just got an EV in March, and decided NOT to upgrade their garage to 240V or install a charger. Plugging in with a 110V outlet is more than enough to cover their usage, but they’re near the limit of what 110V can do. Also they have a second car for longer trips / emergencies which kind of makes them into the perfect ev-owning household.
Agreed. Actually a PHEV is the perfect case, as I’ve only ever charged my Clarity and S60 in via 110V and they’re full every morning.
I don’t know where you live, but I just got a new panel installed (200 amp, up from 100 amp) and I was quoted $4k from several different electricians. I ended up gutting the 60+ year old house and had it rewired from scratch, including a new panel, but even that only cost me $12,500.
Upgrading our main panel, in California, to 100A service was $5000. Not sure where you live, but $12K sounds really, really high.
He might need better service from the street which would add a lot of cost. Or maybe his panel is grandfathered on an older building code and changing anything would require a lot of upgrades. So while $12K sounds like a lot, it might be accurate.
Yes, this is correct. Doing anything to the panel, in my jurisdiction, requires pulling everything up to the most recent Code. So I essentially need new service entrance, new panels, new breakers, etc.
I just did this a year ago and did all that. Breakers, panel, relocation, migrate the old meter to the new installation, new mast and it was $5K. I just got a bid to replace a slightly larger panel here at our new home, with more circuits and it was the same price.
It all had to be to code. $12K is really surprising. Thanks for sharing.
This tracks. I have a lovely garage, and I would consider an EV, but my house is 40+ years old, and so is the power. Installing a circuit for an electric car charger requires retrofitting my entire power panel, at a cost of about $12,000–and that’s not counting the actual EV charger.
So no EV in my future.
Are you sure? Assuming you can get 1KW/hr and 3mi/KW that’s 500 miles per week you’d be able to recharge using only 110V if it was plugged in the whole time. I have a friend that commutes 180 miles per week, drives another 40 or so for errands, just got an EV in March, and decided NOT to upgrade their garage to 240V or install a charger. Plugging in with a 110V outlet is more than enough to cover their usage, but they’re near the limit of what 110V can do. Also they have a second car for longer trips / emergencies which kind of makes them into the perfect ev-owning household.
Agreed. Actually a PHEV is the perfect case, as I’ve only ever charged my Clarity and S60 in via 110V and they’re full every morning.
I don’t know where you live, but I just got a new panel installed (200 amp, up from 100 amp) and I was quoted $4k from several different electricians. I ended up gutting the 60+ year old house and had it rewired from scratch, including a new panel, but even that only cost me $12,500.
Upgrading our main panel, in California, to 100A service was $5000. Not sure where you live, but $12K sounds really, really high.
He might need better service from the street which would add a lot of cost. Or maybe his panel is grandfathered on an older building code and changing anything would require a lot of upgrades. So while $12K sounds like a lot, it might be accurate.
Yes, this is correct. Doing anything to the panel, in my jurisdiction, requires pulling everything up to the most recent Code. So I essentially need new service entrance, new panels, new breakers, etc.
I just did this a year ago and did all that. Breakers, panel, relocation, migrate the old meter to the new installation, new mast and it was $5K. I just got a bid to replace a slightly larger panel here at our new home, with more circuits and it was the same price.
It all had to be to code. $12K is really surprising. Thanks for sharing.
Our next car will not be an EV for much of the reasons listed. . .
1) Can not charge at home. (We own a house, but the typical 100A service to the house is not going to handle charging the car on top of the other electrical loads.)
2) Range. I am traveling hours away and back in a single day. Charging time is not practical. Plus, public Charging infrastructure is lacking.
3) I am concerned about cold weather performance.
4) I also have environmental concerns about what it takes to harvest and manufacture the batteries. Add to that, a recycling system for these batteries that is still figuring itself out.
That said, I am not an EV hater, they just don’t work for us. That said, I am considering a hybrid for our next car. Or a miata. . .cause, well. . .I am commenting on an automotive site.
That said, our truck will stay ICE, as EV’s just don’t the the energy storage capacity for heavy loads or towing.
I think either 1 or 2 by itself would be not a big deal, but the two combined is definitely a problem. L1 charging gets you pretty far if your commute is short/average, and leaving every morning with a full “tank” is nice for long trips if you have L2.
Cold weather’s usually manageable for models with a heat pump. Especially if you have L2 charging at home and can preheat in the morning. Honestly, the ability to preheat in the garage while plugged in is an underrated benefit of BEV/PHEV.
Number 4 is honestly mostly FUD. Or at least, it seems a bit selective/irrational to be deeply concerned about lithium extraction but totally unconcerned with significantly-worse petroleum extraction.
Towing… is going to be the hard one for EVs. Even solid-state batteries and pull-through chargers with really high charge rates are going to be a bit inconvenient, and today even the best options are sort of marginal. You can have a reasonable price, reasonable payload, or reasonable range. Pick one, maybe one and a half. Ramcharger’s got almost the right idea, other than having a weirdly large battery and kind of a cobbled-together ICE generator.
Regarding reason #4 – You have environmental concerns about mining and manufacturing of EV batteries? A major component being lithium, do you have similar concerns about other lithium based battery products? For example, smartphone, Bluetooth earbuds, laptops, tablets, power tools, cameras, battery banks, smart watches as well as used in making glass and other items: https://www.grandviewresearch.com/static/img/research/global-lithium-market.png.
Those other sources make up a greater source of lithium use than EV’s. Do you give the same consideration to the purchase of a new smart phone/tablet/laptop every few years?
Additionally, how does extraction/manufacturing of batteries compare to oil and gasoline products?
Our next car will not be an EV for much of the reasons listed. . .
1) Can not charge at home. (We own a house, but the typical 100A service to the house is not going to handle charging the car on top of the other electrical loads.)
2) Range. I am traveling hours away and back in a single day. Charging time is not practical. Plus, public Charging infrastructure is lacking.
3) I am concerned about cold weather performance.
4) I also have environmental concerns about what it takes to harvest and manufacture the batteries. Add to that, a recycling system for these batteries that is still figuring itself out.
That said, I am not an EV hater, they just don’t work for us. That said, I am considering a hybrid for our next car. Or a miata. . .cause, well. . .I am commenting on an automotive site.
That said, our truck will stay ICE, as EV’s just don’t the the energy storage capacity for heavy loads or towing.
If you don’t have a place to charge at home or work, EVs don’t make much sense. But if you do, then gas or even PHEVs don’t offer the utility of an EV. I plug in at work and pretty much everything in my metropolis is within a 200 mile range. So my tank is almost always full. Cost is about 20 cents a kw, which puts my fuel cost comparison at 70 mpg, assuming fuel at $4/gallon. Gas is usually a little cheaper, but my miles per kilowatt hour range is usually a little higher, so that’s a reasonable figure. And I connect to power faster than a Formula One pitstop. I’ve only had my EV a month, but at this point there is no one more religious than a convert.
If you don’t have a place to charge at home or work, EVs don’t make much sense. But if you do, then gas or even PHEVs don’t offer the utility of an EV. I plug in at work and pretty much everything in my metropolis is within a 200 mile range. So my tank is almost always full. Cost is about 20 cents a kw, which puts my fuel cost comparison at 70 mpg, assuming fuel at $4/gallon. Gas is usually a little cheaper, but my miles per kilowatt hour range is usually a little higher, so that’s a reasonable figure. And I connect to power faster than a Formula One pitstop. I’ve only had my EV a month, but at this point there is no one more religious than a convert.
Affordability is a big part. One of the reasons I pulled the trigger on a Model Y was the subsidized 0.99% financing offer. That’s really cheap money. It did a wonderful job knocking down the payment.
Affordability is a big part. One of the reasons I pulled the trigger on a Model Y was the subsidized 0.99% financing offer. That’s really cheap money. It did a wonderful job knocking down the payment.
As far as the affordability argument is concerned, its not so much that BEVs need to be more affordable in a vacuum but affordable relative for what is offered in terms of features, quality–and especially in the U.S.–size. Cost parity has to go hand-in-hand with size and vehicle class parity. Explaining how affordable a sub-compact Chevy Bolt or base model Equinox EV can be after tax credits to someone in the market for a mid-size or larger family vehicle is a tough sell.
As far as the affordability argument is concerned, its not so much that BEVs need to be more affordable in a vacuum but affordable relative for what is offered in terms of features, quality–and especially in the U.S.–size. Cost parity has to go hand-in-hand with size and vehicle class parity. Explaining how affordable a sub-compact Chevy Bolt or base model Equinox EV can be after tax credits to someone in the market for a mid-size or larger family vehicle is a tough sell.
I think buyer interest in battery-only evs has peaked in the US and is starting to decline. At least as long as gas is 3 bucks a gallon. Tesla went from the sedan for the cool kids to recreating the Aztek as a pickup truck. It’s going to take a lot more government intervention via mandates and incentives to move the market.
I think buyer interest in battery-only evs has peaked in the US and is starting to decline. At least as long as gas is 3 bucks a gallon. Tesla went from the sedan for the cool kids to recreating the Aztek as a pickup truck. It’s going to take a lot more government intervention via mandates and incentives to move the market.
I’m a firm resident of PHEV camp. This past week we took the S60 Recharge on a 2300 mile road trip through New Mexico.
Of all the hotels we stayed at, zero had charging onsite, or nearby. Day 1 and the last day were both over 500mi travel days through west Texas, a recharge desert. Also managed to take a couple of wrong roads (don’t get me started about paper maps v. GPS) and had to do 150 miles round trip wrong direction.
If we were full EV most of the trip wouldn’t have been possible, and definitely would have taken multiple days more.
Sometimes the ability to just go wherever you want without needing a logistics certificate has a lot of value.
I’m a firm resident of PHEV camp. This past week we took the S60 Recharge on a 2300 mile road trip through New Mexico.
Of all the hotels we stayed at, zero had charging onsite, or nearby. Day 1 and the last day were both over 500mi travel days through west Texas, a recharge desert. Also managed to take a couple of wrong roads (don’t get me started about paper maps v. GPS) and had to do 150 miles round trip wrong direction.
If we were full EV most of the trip wouldn’t have been possible, and definitely would have taken multiple days more.
Sometimes the ability to just go wherever you want without needing a logistics certificate has a lot of value.
Hey I resemble this article. I bought an F150 Lightning, having never owned an EV. I love(d) it, but Ford is buying it back due to a backordered part that put me in Lemon Law territory. Now I have to decide if I am going to buy another EV, and all the compromises of an EV are really part of the decision this time. I fit the demo of someone who can live with an EV: I own a home, I have a charger installed, I almost never need to use a DCFC, and the range works for my uses.
However, if there wasn’t USD$9500 in free federal and state money I would not consider another Lightning. Otherwise they are just too expensive, and for 2024 Ford isn’t selling the “cheap” Pro to non-fleet customers. The upper trim models, which Ford leans heavily into, have horrific resale value. I usually don’t worry much about resale, but it’s hard to drive a car knowing you lost your ass on it.
Anyway, yeah. This data makes some sense to me.
That “free” money came from your neighbors, some of whom probably can’t afford most TVs even with a subsidy.
In the US, if they are that poor, they’re not paying any federal income tax. Payroll taxes, yes, but those go into Social Security.
“TV” was supposed to be “EV”.
I get your point, but TVs are probably not the best example as they’re extraordinarily cheap today. I saw some on clearance for about $150 at Walmart a few months back. No-name brand, but whatever. If you look back at what they cost historically, it’s incredible and even the small ones are huge with capabilities unimaginable 25 years ago. Growing up, the TV I first watched was about 20″ and set into a giant console probably 6′ across (tough to say as I was a lot smaller then and not a great estimator of size, but it was not small). A low definition display today would be 4k in comparison to that thing. Our first new TV was a “decent sized” 26″. I can’t recall what it cost (my father always made everyone aware what something cost), but the VCR we got at the same time was $600 or about $2k in today’s money. Anyway, as Joe L mentioned, if someone can’t afford that, they’re not paying income tax.
Sorry, “TV” was a typo, supposed to be “EV.”
Sorry all, “TV” should be “EV.”
That’s one way to look at it
Hey I resemble this article. I bought an F150 Lightning, having never owned an EV. I love(d) it, but Ford is buying it back due to a backordered part that put me in Lemon Law territory. Now I have to decide if I am going to buy another EV, and all the compromises of an EV are really part of the decision this time. I fit the demo of someone who can live with an EV: I own a home, I have a charger installed, I almost never need to use a DCFC, and the range works for my uses.
However, if there wasn’t USD$9500 in free federal and state money I would not consider another Lightning. Otherwise they are just too expensive, and for 2024 Ford isn’t selling the “cheap” Pro to non-fleet customers. The upper trim models, which Ford leans heavily into, have horrific resale value. I usually don’t worry much about resale, but it’s hard to drive a car knowing you lost your ass on it.
Anyway, yeah. This data makes some sense to me.
That “free” money came from your neighbors, some of whom probably can’t afford most TVs even with a subsidy.
In the US, if they are that poor, they’re not paying any federal income tax. Payroll taxes, yes, but those go into Social Security.
“TV” was supposed to be “EV”.
I get your point, but TVs are probably not the best example as they’re extraordinarily cheap today. I saw some on clearance for about $150 at Walmart a few months back. No-name brand, but whatever. If you look back at what they cost historically, it’s incredible and even the small ones are huge with capabilities unimaginable 25 years ago. Growing up, the TV I first watched was about 20″ and set into a giant console probably 6′ across (tough to say as I was a lot smaller then and not a great estimator of size, but it was not small). A low definition display today would be 4k in comparison to that thing. Our first new TV was a “decent sized” 26″. I can’t recall what it cost (my father always made everyone aware what something cost), but the VCR we got at the same time was $600 or about $2k in today’s money. Anyway, as Joe L mentioned, if someone can’t afford that, they’re not paying income tax.
Sorry, “TV” was a typo, supposed to be “EV.”
Sorry all, “TV” should be “EV.”
That’s one way to look at it
Funny, so many commenters decry the charging problem, but it’s the third ranked one here from actual owners! I don’t count the second one, because if you buy an EV with out at-home charging, well, surely you knew that before the purchase.
You seem to be overestimating the intelligence of a lot of Americans.