Why Driving Short Distances Can Kill A Newer Honda CR-V

Oil Dilution Ts
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Ah, time for another Achilles Heel, where we detail the little problems that can bring entire cars down. I’ve usually used this as an opportunity to bag on hideously complex German luxury cars, so let’s do something different for a change. As you probably know, Achilles Heels don’t just exist on vehicles that depreciate like office real estate during the COVID-19 pandemic, they can be found on all vehicles from all walks of life. Take Honda, a Japanese byword for reliability.

In the mid-2010s (that feels weird to write), Honda started the roll-out of its 1.5-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine as a downsized successor for engines like the 2.4-liter K24 inline-four. On paper, it seemed dandy, with solid output and excellent low-end torque for running around town. Given its fitment in the popular Civic, Accord, and CR-V, this little engine was soon everywhere, and that’s where the problems started.

Unfortunately, the 1.5T has a habit of oil dilution when used for the sorts of short errands you’d expect to run in a Civic or CR-V. What is oil dilution? Well, it’s when unburned fuel makes its way past the piston rings and ends up in the crankcase, mixing with the engine oil and leading to some not-so-fun results. You see, gasoline doesn’t make for an amazing lubricant.

2017 Honda CR-V Engine oil dilution

The biggest issue is that fuel mixed with oil lowers the viscosity of the oil, and oil needs viscosity to lubricate things properly. If it’s too watery, the correct film won’t build on critical components like bearings, thus accelerating engine wear. Oil dilution may cause misfires, noxious aromas, and emissions-related error codes. Fun stuff! In simple terms: Could engine go bam? Yes, engine could go bam.

In addition to short trips, cold climates can add to oil dilution woes thanks to condensation of vaporized fuel/air mixture. Just like how when you have a cold can of soda on a hot day, water vapor condenses into droplets on the cold can, a fuel-air vapor will condense into droplets on cold metal in the combustion chamber. German lubricant company Addinol explains:

Petrol settles on the cylinder walls during cold starts and is introduced into the oil via the piston ring. This results in a mixing of oil and fuel. Since the oil in the engine does not heat up strongly enough, the fuel is not completely burned. Parts of the fuel remain in the lubricant and continue to dilute it.

Cold start enrichment may also play a role in promoting oil dilution, as it’s typical for modern engines to run a little on the rich side following a cold start for a variety of reasons. Since some fuel settles on the cylinder walls when an engine is cold, enriching the air-fuel mixture can combat atomization losses to pooling. In addition, a richer mixture during engine warmup can help light off the primary catalytic converters, helping to lower emissions. The colder it is outside, the longer it will take for an engine to warm up. Granted, these tuning tricks are employed in pretty much every modern fuel-injected engine, so oil dilution in these Hondas is likely exacerbated by piston ring gap and/or some other issue in the engine’s design design.

 

Honda Oil Dilution Tsb

If this rings a bell, that’s probably because this oil dilution issue has been talked about here and there for the past few years. In fact, Honda knew about the oil dilution issue back in 2018, when it issued a technical service bulletin in certain cold weather states to combat the oil dilution issue with “ECU and TCU software updates and replacement of the A/C control unit.” In addition, Honda issued a limited warranty extension on 2016 to 2018 Civic models with the 1.5T in 2019.

To increase customer confidence, American Honda is extending the powertrain warranty on the camshafts, rocker arm assemblies, and spark plugs from the original 5 years or 60,000 miles to 6 years with unlimited mileage from the original sale date.

So, did this round of fixes work? Allegedly not. A recent class action lawsuit, Wolf et. al. v. American Honda Motor Co., Inc., claims that oil dilution is still an issue on newer Honda 1.5T vehicles, including some notorious alleged issues with a 2021 CR-V. As per the class action complaint:

On or about February 17, 2022, Ms. Phelps’ vehicle went into “limp mode” while she was driving to work and began emitting smoke. “Limp mode” occurs when a car’s electronic control unit senses something drastically wrong with the transmission or engine. She had her vehicle towed to Hosmer Honda in Mason City, Iowa, an authorized Honda dealership, where technicians found fuel in the vehicle oil. Technicians inspected the vehicle for the source of the problem, reportedly found no other issues, changed the oil, and tried to burn the excess fuel out of the engine system.

That’s one of six times the vehicle has allegedly visited a Honda service department for oil dilution-related problems, and this complainant isn’t alone. Parsing the NHTSA complaint page, it’s not hard to find owners of vehicles newer than the alleged fix date that allegedly are experience serious oil dilution-related issues. Take this complaint from the owner of a 2019 CR-V:

Vehicle had a engine failure at 64,000 miles, vehicle was very well maintained by dealer, on time, I went in for a oil change drove in to the dealer, got vehicle back and 400 miles down the road had loud knock in the engine, dealer told me they saw metal shavings, possibly a spun bearing from oil dilution, they refuse to repair it as it’s passed the 60,000 warranty mark leaving me with a $6000 bill

As it stands, owners of affected Hondas have limited options. They can sell their vehicles and get into something without a documented oil dilution issue, or they can try to save up for a repair fund. Neither of these are ideal, especially considering the average Civic or CR-V driver doesn’t have cash to throw around on sudden vehicle changes or repairs.

2019 Honda Civic Front

It’s worth noting that if you live in a warm state and arrive everywhere with a warm engine, you may not experience oil dilution. However, if you’re in the market for a Honda with a 1.5-liter turbocharged engine to use as a short-distance daily driver, you probably want to think again. Remember, just because a company has a great reputation doesn’t mean it gets everything right. Just ask any owner of an early-aughts Accord V6 with an automatic transmission.

(Photo credits: Honda)

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178 thoughts on “Why Driving Short Distances Can Kill A Newer Honda CR-V”

  1. I would think there’s a simple solution to this problem: maybe once a month, hit the highway and drive for a bit, to get everything hot enough to burn off any condensation in the oil. I only use my 72 Super Beetle around town. But I check the oil fill cap occasionally, and if there’s that gross frothy shit under it, I pick a time when there’s not much traffic on the highway and drive a few miles to burn it off.

    1. That’s what i do with the Prius. Even still, my oil gets very “milkshake-y” in short order as i don’t always have time to do an hour long highway runs every 2 weeks.. only happens during winter when it’s cold and humid as fok. During that stupid time of the year, i tend to do 1 months and a half OCI’s..

    2. My 10-y-o Honda with low miles (Covid WFH) failed a smog test. I was shocked. The guy told me to go for a freeway drive and come back. The retest passed.

      1. For a couple of months my ’16 Grand Caravan was either being driven very gently (moving across town) or all local (new commute doesn’t need the Interstate). Literally two days before I had to smog it the CEL came on and it pulled a catalytic efficiency code. Probably gummed up a bit from it being a few years old Pentastar and then all the short/local trips.

        I filled it with 1/4 tank of E85 and a bottle of Techron and proceeded to drive like an absolute maniac for a day. Stoplight pulls, 0-80 every on-ramp, full beans passing people for particular reason.

        Code gone. The good ol’ Italian Tuneup still works! Hell, the idle became steadier too. I made sure to mix in a day or so of taking the highway route to the lab per week.

  2. As it stands, owners of affected Hondas have limited options. They can sell their vehicles and get into something without a documented oil dilution issue, or they can try to save up for a repair fund.

    Actually they have another option. Take longer drives occasionally and change the oil more frequently. I don’t know if these engines spec 7500 or 10000 mile intervals, but don’t let it go past 5k, 3k if you really do a ton of short trips.

    This problem can be solved, pretty easily. The car isn’t actually a German style ticking time bomb you can’t do anything about.

  3. This is part of my reason for wanting to go electric. I have a 4 mile commute and I don’t want to kill my rock solid Fiesta ST with all these short trips where the coolant barely gets up to temp so I’m sure the oil doesn’t.

      1. That being said for this use case I think a BEV with user swappable batteries would be the way to go. For low ranges at low-ish speeds user swappable batteries make a lot of sense.

    2. Or just get a car that warms up faster. My Honda opens the thermostat less than a mile from my house even in the dead of winter. My pickup is more like 2 miles.

      1. I had a 84 Honda Civic that would never heat up in the winter. I bought a 180 degree thermostat, no change. 190 degree thermostat, no change. I was looking for a hotter one and went to a Honda dealer and asked for the hottest thermostat they had. Got a strange look and he said they only had 160 degree thermostats. Oh, well, nothing else has worked so I tried it. Warmed up in minutes, and never had heat problems again. I’m guessing you had a genuine Honda thermostat as well.

      2. My GTI has the temp gauge at 200° w/in a mile and a half. The oil doesn’t exceed 190° for 10 miles or more. I try to get it to that for a half hour at least once a week.

    3. Yeah, I’ve got a similar commute with my FiST, been doing 3k oil change intervals because of it (usually longer drives each week too). Probably overkill, don’t ever smell fuel in the oil.

    4. My kid’s school is half a mile away. When it’s too cold or rainy to walk, we’ll take the EV. Much too short for an ICE car to do without damage, but with the EV I get instant heat and don’t have to worry about this ‘fully warmed up’ nonsense.

  5. Time to switch back to non-turbo, eh?

    Honda has little experience with turbos. Before the Civic started using them, the only turbo Honda ever sold here was the first-gen RDX. When the 10th gen Civic came out, they went all-in on something they don’t have enough experience with.

    You can reduce the effects by filling up with premium and using 5w30 oil.

          1. No, but as long as it’s in standard running, it should heat the oil quicker to burn it out. Of course, we’re talking CRV drivers, so it’s probably more theoretical in this case.

    2. Before the Civic started using them, the only turbo Honda ever sold here was the first-gen RDX. 

      What, you’re going to completely ignore the early ’80s turbocharged CX500 & CX650?!

      😉

  6. Newer Audi’s give you a message saying “please drive to warm up engine” if they detect dilution. The manual even explains the cause of the message is dilution.

  7. So – Small car primarily owned by old people to go short distances grenades after being used by old people to go short distances.

    You could come away thinking that an EV would be the best thing for this set of users. But then they would be sold a long-range EV for those twice a year trips to see the grandkids – yet even a short-range EV would see it’s battery ruined in a matter of a couple years due to the owner never driving the thing long & far enough frequently enough.

    Kinda makes you long for the days when cotton-tops drove indestructible and ancient Newport Customs and Catalinas to Church, the Piggly Wiggly and the Doctor’s Office…
    …because you just KNEW that they’d be making a left turn from the right lane at 15 under the speed limit by looking at the car.

    1. To be fair, the thing that kills any EV’s battery (short or long range) is not driving it short distances but rather always plugging it in after those short trips. If you’re constantly topping off your battery and it’s always close to 100%, your range will degrade MUCH quicker than it should. If you keep it between 80 and 20 for around town and only charge it up to 100 when going on road trips, your range degradation won’t be a big deal (unless you own a Nissan Leaf, but that’s a Nissan problem not an EV problem).

        1. I agree. There’s a lot of information about EVs that more people need to know, and there’s a lot of people who aren’t aware of things they need to do (like not constantly topping off charge).

        1. For day-to day commuting, yes, but for road trips (when your long range will matter) you can charge up to 100% and go down to 10% without issue. You get 60% of your range while doing short trips, yes, but your 200+ mi range doesn’t really matter when driving 10 mi to the grocery store.

        2. Yeah, this doesn’t work for our Soul EV since the full range is 99 miles. Commute uses over 50% of that each day so we need to plug it in each night. When this second battery pack dies, the car is bricked. At this point I’d rather have a PHEV.

        1. Globally it has offered it, but it’s also not like it’s a large car either…it’s still about the same length as a Civic. Having been in the 3rd row of a similarly-sized Outlander in an XL rideshare, it’s more child sized and probably not ideal for a road trip.

          1. I recall riding on the 3rd row of a 2nd gen Outlander and it wasn’t funny. That 3rd row was more like a foldable bench made of thin canvas. Not much different than a beach chair, and the legroom was as bad as an F body Camaro or Fox body Mustang.

            My uncle had just purchased the Outlander and we were going to take a 2hr trip to the mountains. Mind you, I’m only 5′ 8″ and would still not fit back there unless I tilted my legs 45 degrees or so to not bump my knees against the 2nd row.
            The moment we did a stopover for the restroom was the moment I got into the 2nd row and never looked back. Too bad for my cousins but they were in middle school so…
            I believe the contemporary Rav 4 also got that option which of course wouldn’t last long.

            1. Oh yeah the 3rd row in that gen was really rough like you said, even Mitsu it a “compact” third row. Newer ones have a real “seat” with some structure, it’s just still small and without much room, yet they tend to be a bit common in Uber/Lyft XL status now. I get it, it’s a cheap 3-row vehicle, but if you have a group of adults it’s not a great fit for that purpose. On a recent bachelor party trip our group got them at least twice, which was a little tight for 6 adult guys. (The current one has less headroom in the 3rd row than the old one as I found out almost back to back on that trip, so I had to hunch forward a bit too…)

        1. In Aus you can get a 7 seater variant which has similar sized seats to a lot of smaller 7 seater CUVS eg good for ten year olds etc. Sorry for me small car is sub 1200kg. Put it this way I recently bought a 2012 Mazda CX-5 which is about the same size and 1425kg and its the biggest car I have ever owned out of the 16 cars I have had

          1. Ok so the issue here is here in the US at least, not sure about other places, is that a small SUV and a small car are two very different sizes. A small car is actually small, a small SUV is something that’s small compared to a Suburban.

            A Ford Maverick is marketed as a “compact truck” despite being larger in every dimension than a midsize Accord.

          2. By weight alone that would eliminate a lot of cars that are universally small – a new Kia Rio is 2700 lbs or 1224 kg. A Mazda 3 of the same year as your CX-5 weighed 1300 kg but is still a small car.

  8. What’s short? 1 mile? 5 miles? 25, 100? Bit more precise would be nice.

    Is it warm enough when my coolant is on normal temperature?

    Questions, questions, questions…

    2. Depends on car. When your coolant temp gauge is up to normal and the thermostat opens, you’re not quite there but close. In my Honda this is less than a mile, so even taking the kids to school(maybe 4 miles round trip) warms it up 100%, not a short trip.

      Some cars will take significantly longer.

    3. It of course all depends, temp, type/speed of driving ect. The general rule to keep H2O condensation and the milky stuff on the underside of the oil cap at bay is to drive for 10-20 minutes under load, after the temp gauge has reached normal operating temp. That should be enough to boil out any fuel in the oil as well as condensation.

    4. Since it sits a lot I take the old Buick out until the digital gauge hits 190 degrees and drive a while. That keeps it healthy. It’s odd that an old people’s car has a detailed gauge display in the trip computer

      1. Another reason to get older cars up to temp is get the exhaust system hot enough to boil the water out of the muffler. Most older cars didn’t have stainless steel exhaust systems and water left in the muffler would rust them from the inside.

    5. Yeah, that’s what I was wondering as well.
      I have a new Integra with the 1.5, and generally I get on the highway for 10 minutes to go to work, so not an issue there, but in the next year or two I’ll be moving to a town only about 5 miles from work. I’m guessing that’s considered short? Though, to be honest, my engine is fully heated up by the time I get to the highway now, and that’s only about a mile….

    6. “What’s short? 1 mile? 5 miles? 25, 100?”

      Yes, Yes, No, No.

      ‘short’ means ‘short enough that the car doesn’t fully warm up. Most cars won’t be warmed up after 1-5 miles unless you’re in hot weather.

      By 10 miles, most cars would be fully warmed up even in cold weather.

        1. Owner of 2 German cars here. The BMW doesn’t even display coolant temperature, the VW does. In neither car does the oil temperature get up to 180° before driving 10 miles on the freeway.

          The BMW, not having a dipstick, was hard to diagnose gasoline in the oil, but it would mysteriously not use oil (according to the gauge readout) until it was used on a 2 hour run. Then the indicated level would drop by a cup or 2. Now try to drive it for at least 1/2 hr each time I start it.

    7. I imagine speed/traffic makes a difference too. My commute is only four miles, but it takes at least twenty minutes, mostly spent stopped in traffic. At rush hour I think it would be closer to 40 minutes.

  9. Yeah, this has been a problem for them for a while. What’s the oil change interval? Sounds like they need to issue a notice to customers to move up their intervals at least if they frequently do short trips. I wonder if moving to the next higher weight oil would be beneficial if they’re 0W-xx like many cars today. What new change interval they should move to, IDK, and that brings up more concerns, like: if Honda sent out revised oil change interval recommendations, would the customer be on the hook for not following it? Do they give some kind of reimbursement for doubling or more the cost of their oil changes?

    2. If you didn’t know the first number (Xw30) has little effect on the viscosity of the oil when warm, the real number to look for is the second one. 5w30 isn’t really thinner than 10w30 is.

      1. Right, but it matters when cold. IDK what the warm temp is -16, -20? With stuff that thin, fuel dilution will only be all the worse of a problem. Also, the greater the difference between ratings, the more modifiers there are, so 5W-30 would be better than 0W-30 even for full temp driving.

  11. I’m surprised Honda doesn’t offer some kind of goodwill credit for Just-out-of-warranty vehicles. With Stellantis, say you have a car with 70 or 80k miles, out of warranty, and the trans gives up the ghost. All it usually takes is a phone call to our rep, and Chrysler takes care of it. I find it hard to believe Chrysler would do that and not honda.

    1. I’m not surprised. My Insight was two weeks outside it’s 8 year IMA warranty when its hybrid battery failed. Honda told me to pound sand. Funny thing was, the battery had failed a month earlier but I had no idea the severity of the problem nor that the warranty was on the cusp of evaporating.

    2. Honda should be notorious for this; after telling my parents to pound sand on irregular factory alignment on a then-new ’92 Civic and ECU failure on a relatively new ’87 Integra, we’ve sworn off of them.

    3. We have installed our machines at Chrysler/Daimler/Fiat transmission plant. They just ship parts out without care about what was done to them in all machines because meeting production is Job 1

  12. “Just ask any owner of an early-aughts Accord V6 with an automatic transmission.”

    It wasn’t just the accord, any V6 of this era. In the shop I worked at we just expected to replace transmissions every 70k in odysseys. Didn’t see as many pilots, not sure why but still saw them frequently enough

      1. Nice. Yeah from what I remember 2003 was the worst year, and a couple around it had problems too. I don’t remember what it was that would break in them, just that the techs were constantly replacing the transmission.

  13. Had one. They take forever to warm up. Cooling too efficient.

    Suspect the AC module replacement was to trick the car into warming up faster.

    Most owners aware of the issue just put cardboard in front of the radiator.

    1. Could they have thermostats that aren’t the right spec? My car (2016 Mazda) has a 180° thermostat from the factory and I always found that surprising. It warms up quickly enough in the winter, though.

      2. It could be – from what I remember it was the 195 range.

        But the engine was so efficient if it just sat idling in the driveway on a zero degree day the car wouldn’t really make heat for about 20 minutes. I can see how people with remote start waiting for the windows to defrost could get a lot of dilution.

        I got in the habit of just scraping the windows and keeping it in 3rd or 4th to get the engine up to temperature.

        1. This old idea of idling your cold car to ‘warm it up’ is actually worse for oil dilution, since the absolute richest a gasoline could ever run is at idle when cold. Combined with the improvement in efficiency of modern engines compared to old carbureted Buicks, it will take forever to warm up idling, so it will run at cold idle for a long time.

          Get in your car, start it up, wait a few seconds (to let oil pressure get nominal), then start driving. Wait for the temp gauge to get to normal temps before putting your foot in it (especially with a turbo engine), but that’s how you should ‘warm up’ your car.

          1. Right. This article doesn’t really read like an Achilles heel to me. Just kind of a newer DI engine problem and people who drive their cars like it’s 1990 still.

            I’m not saying it’s not a problem, but it doesn’t compare to cam phasers in tritons or spark plugs blowing out of tritons or spark plugs splitting in half in tritons … those kind of situations where virtually EVERY one made is guaranteed the issue.

            To me an Achilles heel would be like the Mini guys with the first gen turbo engines (2007 or so) going “yeah it’s my turn for ____ problem, why does BMW want an extra $6k from all of us at 50k miles?”

            Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the 15M Honda’s running the 1.5T will all be in the scrap yard in the next 5 years. Given the volume out there in northern states, I guess we’ll know soon enough.

  14. Other engines suffer the same issue. For example, the MB OM642 diesel is known for oil dilution issues. MB forum commentators suggest long periods of operation at idle creates the dilution, although to my knowledge MB hasn’t said so.

    Especially in the winter, it makes sense to either drive until the engine reaches 180 or so, or change oil often.

  15. I’d recommend 3000 mile oil changes as a pretty solid palliative. Not expensive if you can do yourself. No need to change filter that often, but remove and drain.

    1. Yeah, it’s probably even recommended by the owners manual of these cars.
      Short trips, cold weather = severe maintenance schedule.
      Pretty much everything that people consider normal, everyday use actually falls under the severe maintenance schedule.

    2. Depends if a cellulose (el cheapo paper) filter is used and the type of dilution at cause. Fuel dilution? You’re right! Dump oil, put a good 5w30 in, rinse, repeat.. water dilution like the one that plagues my Prius Prime during winter is another animal. Paper and water doesn’t play well together, especially not during winter where the water soaked paper media will freeze, plug and force the filter to go into bypass…. before eventually failing.. I use a Fram Ultra, or other synthetic, filter during winter for that reason. Synthetic (glass) media doesn’t give 2 shits if there is some water passing thru and i just dump the oil and fill with the cheapest reasonably good oil i can find a couple of times per winter.. Pennzoil, Motomaster, etc bought during some sale event for cheap..

  16. Having never owned a Japanese car in my life, just last week I purchased an 09 Civic Si as a replacement for my 99 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight. I wanted something sporty, reliable, four seat, manual and with a naturally aspirated engine. The 8th Gen Si fit the bill perfectly. It’s good fun and the engine is a peach.

    My commute is 4 miles and I live in the snowbelt. When ever I change the oil in my cars is obvious that there was a lot of condensation in the oil.

        1. I think it depends on where you live. My cousin biked several miles to work in Stockholm for most of his life, rain, snow or shine. He’s fine.

          I can see however trying that in the upper midwest or Canada might be legally considered a suicide attempt.

          1. Beyond tolerating the weather, you need safe lanes of travel, a shower at work, and somewhere to store the bike. None of which is available in most of the US.

            1. Storing a bike in my experience is easier than parking a car, especially if its a folding bike.Takes less time too. Bikes take up far less valuable space than cars. 10+ bikes can be fit into a single car sized parking space.

              It’s a good public face for employers to be seen as accommodating employees (and customers) who cycle so its worth asking for such accommodations. A few hooks on the ceiling or a bike rack isn’t even petty cash money so really there’s no reason to say no.

              Safe lanes of travel are absolutely an issue. Good thing many communities don’t disallow riding on sidewalks and going through parks. Shortcuts exist for bikes that don’t for cars. Bikes can go places only dreamed of by commuters trapped in bumper to bumper traffic. Bikes can also can make good first mile/last mile solutions for longer commutes on public transit.

              As to the shower I agree that would be nice, maybe even mandatory if the job requires a suit. Most places I’ve worked that didn’t already have a locker room have been able to accomidate at a minimum a head to toe wipe down with a wet towel. That’s enough to get the sweat and stink off. You’ll feel even fresher than if you’d driven in and didn’t wipe down. Again providing accommodations to employees that cycle is a good, low cost look for employers so why not?

              The folks who lived in vans out in the parking lot during the week went to nearby gyms to shower. That’s another option.

              As always YMMV. There are many cases for which cycling is not even close to being a practical solution, nor is public transit. I get that. What I take exception to are cases where cycling IS practical, just a slightly less convenient solution and the commuter just can’t even be bothered to try because bikes are for DUI losers and children and the bus is for poors.

              I also take exception to employers who instead of accommodating WFH obstinately force their employees into the office mainly to prop up the value of that office. IMO commercial property should be heavily taxed to discourage such office centric policies and generous, pro rated tax breaks given to employers who accomidate WFH. Exceptions to jobs that are not possible to be done from home such as manufacturing, restaurants, warehouses, research labs, retail, etc.

    2. Once it a while it is a good idea to take it for a longer drive, maybe once or twice a month. A nice freeway speed drive for ~20 min should keep the moisture in the oil down.

  17. “Honda issued a TSB for ECU and TCU software updates and replacement of the A/C control unit.”
    There must be a good reason, but why not simply adjusting the oil change reminder to engine temperature history ?
    My old FIT tracks a remaining “Oil life” depending on driving condition. Isn’t engine temperature one of them ?

  18. Kinda reminds me of Honda’s non-admitting admittance that North American ‘06-‘09 non-Si Civics had a potential engine casting flaw that would result in the block cracking under normal driving conditions. My parents’ ‘07 had it happen at 90k miles, and thankfully the class action lawsuit about this defect covered the Engine replacement. I know Hondas have a reputation for being bulletproof, but boy, when Honda misses, they miss hard.

    1. This is why I don’t actually consider Honda as being on the same level as Toyota when it comes to longevity. Too many of their cars built in the last 20 years or so have some sort of excentric quirk or flaw.

      I know at least two people with mid-2000’s Hondas that had transmission problems, and I once owned a 2001 S2000 that loved to drink oil when you revved it hard. My sister’s 2015 Honda Fit has an ambient air sensor that seems to stand in for a proper engine coolant temperature sensor.

      1. I agree that Hondas since the millennium are only pretty good, which is a big step down, and certain models are just bad.

        But you can’t fault an engine for burning oil when you rev it to 9000rpm regularly.

      2. I think a large part of Honda’s reputation for reliability comes from their power sports, equipment and marine divisions. Those products are tangential, but brilliant marketing. A lot of automakers have tried this over the years- (Ever seen a Chrysler sailboat or Nissan outboard?) but Honda is the only one in North America to have really stuck with it.

        Looking to buy a mobile inverter generator, and need the absolute best? Doesn’t matter if you’re running a construction site, field hospital, or just a refrigerator- nobody is going to doubt your commitment if you choose a Honda. That mentality runs deep.

        The same applies to pretty much everything else they make, from snowblowers to outboard motors to motorbikes. These products aren’t always market leading, but they ARE always among the best in terms of long term reliability and value. They wisely chose product lines with legitimate commercial uses, but still accessible to consumers.

        As an aside, I think people are also quick to give Honda a pass for their fuckups because they perceive them to be legitimate mistakes, not calculated executive decisions to screw their consumers. (Ford Pinto or GM ignition switch style.) Maybe it’s just our relative insulation from Honda’s corporate culture, but they are us usually perceived as “trying their best”.

  19. What happened to the car I used to know?
    You started limping somewhere down the road.
    Don’t bring me down,
    No, no, no, no, no
    Ooh-ooh-hoo
    It’s happened before when all our trips were real short,
    Don’t bring me down.

    1. That’s my thought as well. We had a 2011 Kia Optima with the 2.4l DI engine. The forums were well aware of gasoline dilution. A used oil analyst confirmed that the oil was at the end of its life due to dilution at the recommended service interval.

    3. Yes, they are direct injection.

      Toyota has a dual injection on some of their cars, two sets of injectors, both direct injection and regular. It really helps with these kinds of issues.

    4. This specific problem is probably related to being direct injected, not because it’s turbocharged. Case in point, Nissan’s 5.6 V8 from titans/armadas. Mechanically have been very durable (except for one achilles heel that can kill them…the exhaust manifolds…). But, that design didn’t have oil problems at all.

      then…they made the motors direct injected. All of a sudden there were cylinder wear issues and oil dilution issues mostly in places that got really cold. Because of the soda can effect from the direct injectors firing right inside of super cold cylinders. The issue wasn’t very common or bad, but it really only started when they switched to DI from port injection.

      1. The current trend of low tension piston rings for meeting efficiency standards was started about the same time as gasoline DI engines, and is also a major contributor to oil dilution. Some OEM (I don’t remember which.. maybe Toyota? or Hyundai?) had replacing piston rings as their ‘fix’ to excessive oil consumption issues caused by the low tension rings.

        1. I think Toyota went through a rough spot in the mid to late 2000s where they underspeced their piston rings. Some engines were fine, some weren’t. I only found out recently that my 2004 Camry with the 2.4 was known to burn oil sometimes due to low-tension rings, but mine was rock solid past 200k miles.

        2. Yes, you are correct. I had a 2012 Subaru that needed a new motor at ~40k miles because of the oil ring issue. At least subaru covered it though.

    1. Well, since we all know that the plural of anecdote is data, the K24 engine in your CRV is quite durable. In my immediate family, we have one CRV with (not a typo) over 525,000 miles on the original engine and transmission, and the “baby” CRV at only 190,000 miles with no engine or transmission work. The 190K car uses almost no oil between changes, usually at 7-8K mile intervals per the Maintenance Minder.

      1. After blowing up several between age 16 and 17, I eventually learned 2 things.
        Where the temp sending wire should attach to, and how to install an actual temp gauge. Life can be tough at that age.

        1. You haven’t lived till you’ve installed an old school ether bulb based gauge. The feeling you get when you realize the reason it’s still showing zero even when the engine is warm is because you nicked or bent the capillary wire is… indescribable.

  24. Remember, just because a company has a great reputation doesn’t mean it gets everything right.

    I guess I wonder how much longer Honda will have this reputation. People use Honda and Toyota interchangeably for “equally and supremely reliable”, and that just isn’t the case.

    Personally, I haven’t considered Honda an especially reliable brand since the 90s. They aren’t Land Rover, but they certainly aren’t Toyota either.

    1. In normie brains Japanese=reliable. This even applies to brands like Nissan, which is shocking considering their transmissions grenade themselves at 60,000 miles. It’s similar to how Korean=junk just refuses to die in the minds of the masses. It’s more so about advice that your dad gave you in the 90s than actual, current data, you silly goose.

      1. I feel that Nissans, even the “golden age” ones of the 80s and 90s are really just kind of 2nd place Toyotas. I have a Laurel which was Nissans direct competitor to what we got as the Cressida and while I love my car, it doesn’t feel nearly as well built as a similar year Cressida or other Toyota of the era. Or how Cedrics and Glorias are cool cars that I like a lot but they just don’t feel as well built and sturdy as a Toyota Crown from the same time period.

      2. Eh… The myriad Hyundai engine recalls beg to differ. Good friend had it with the 2.4 in the sonata, my sister had it in the 3.8 V6 in her Santa Fe, plenty of others. They’re better than they used to be, but I’ve known more people with issues with Hyundai products than not.

        1. This. My in-laws have a 2012 Sonata with a touch over 100k and it is soon to need its 2nd engine and they are meticulous with maintenance.

          1. Yeah my friend had to get it replaced 2x under 100k, first time Hyundai paid for it, but it was on back order so she was in a rental for like 4 months. Second time, she had to pay for the labor, luckily they could get the engine by then.

            1. I moved up all the service intervals on my Ioniq, oil change every other month, transmission fluid every 40,000 miles, I do 2,000+ business miles on it per month and just get the feeling it isn’t really designed as a long-term car and it’s better safe than sorry. Control the variables I can, hopefully it lasts the 4 years it has to before I’m required to buy a new car to stay in compliance with my company’s reimbursement policy.

              And, hopefully, Stellantis has a 4-door hybrid Charger out by then, but I seriously doubt that

        2. It kind of switched on my side. My sister had a 2007 Elantra that failed virtually everywhere except in the powertrain. Scrapped the car at a hair over 300k km and both the engine and transmission were perfectly fine. An uncle have a 2015 Elantra and he never touched nothing on that car except the engine… twice! Like if Hyundai can’t find a way to making reliable aluminum blocks.. Go figure..

        3. Every time I hear people saying ‘this is not the Hyundai from 20/10/5 years ago!’ I just tell them about the latest massive engine recall/class action. There’s always a fresh one within the past 6 months, max.

          1. Yeah. And while I agree they are better than they used to be, in the past, they still have far too many misses for me to trust them or recommend them to friends/family

      3. Public perception takes time to change, both good and bad, although a positive one evaporates much more quickly than it’s earned. The universal Japanese=reliable I don’t think is quite so assumed now, or Mitsubishi would have had an easier time of it the last several years, but it’s only in the last few years that perception of Nissan has really started to tumble. For the most part I don’t think the general public considers Korean=junk so readily as they once did given that the Tucson has been climbing the best-seller lists the last couple years (currently #15 YTD, probably almost top 10 if you exclude full-size pickups), but it’s not like H/K have exactly done themselves favors as of late either.

        1. No, they haven’t. Obviously there’s the theta 2 engine debacle that Forbestheweirdo is mentioning. 2019 was the last model year that had the problematic series of engines in it, but obviously there are still a lot around and for our commentariat that’s generally of the “buy cars used and pay cash” mindset I get why it’s a concern.

          Obviously there there’s the Kia Boys nonsense too…and while I think mass hysteria, social media, and the click thirsty news cycle have blown it out of proportion (it’s literally just cars with a regular key ignition, which is only the basest trim of a handful of their cheapest models at this point), it’s still incredibly stupid engineering.

          If they could stop shooting themselves in the dick periodically they could complete their climb to legitimacy…but also holy shit y’all, some of this is just dumb and easily preventable stuff that more established manufacturers have already figured out.

          1. The keyed ignitions do/did make up a decent chunk of their models, both as brands that had success with cheap cars and simply since you had to step up a couple packages on most models to get pushbutton start, but there’s the risk of getting targeted anyway for a break in and then run when it’s pushbutton.

            We’ve had 4 H/K products in our family and though I like the products still I’m less inclined to buy one now for a time. But not like it was all flawless experiences, they mostly seem to nickel and dime the way GM cars did for us, but I’m fairly certain my Optima would have had transmission problems down the line and my dad’s Niro is starting to have paint fade on the spoiler, which we’ve never had a car <10 years old where that happened. Though I’ll take that over the peeling white paint that seems common in Hyundais too.

            But seems like negative perception turns around more quickly these days, many of the issues from 5-10 years ago from several brands seem to be forgotten. I did remember too H/K had an overstated MPG scandal from ~10 years ago in the first wave of their product renaissance (Ford hybrids too).

            1. Lol, I remember that scandal. The Hyundai website said “the largest lineup of 40 mpg+ cars” or something like that.

              When the EPA retested everything, not a single car was able to crack 40 mpg.

              With Ford, I think it was the C-max. It was supposed to get 47mpg on both the city and highway. There was a class-action because nobody could get close to that.

              1. I think Honda and Hyundai at different times have touted “most fuel-efficient full line automaker” which is one of those classifications that’s up to interpretation based on EPA classifications or whatever.

                A friend had an Elantra and got one of the make-good checks for the overstated MPG. It has seemed like the ratings and real-world have matched more closely ever since, but road tests of some of their hybrids like the Tucson haven’t seemed to come close (even in comparison to hybrids from other brands).

                For Ford, I want to say it applied to both Fusion and C-Max both because they had the same powertrain and MPG rating and questions on the accuracy of the ratings. But the C-Max probably bore the brunt of it since it was a newer name and hybrid-only. Or I’m just thinking of Ford revising the rating down for both models after the whole thing.

      4. I don’t understand how anyone thinks Nissans are reliable. My Aunt’s 2014 Nissan Sentra just ate its CVT a few weeks ago. What a piece of crap.

        My grandmother has a 2011 Hyundai Azera that burns oil and rattles a lot on startup. I have a neighbor with an early 2010’s Hyundai Sonata that also burns oil and rattles a lot on startup. I don’t think that Korean cars are very reliable, but I was born in the 90’s, so my opinion of Korean cars isn’t some old-school perspective, its based on recent impressions of long-term quality.

        I’m very glad you’ve had good luck with your Korean cars, but some of these issues don’t make themselves fully apparent until further down the road.

    2. Having worked 14 years at a Toyota dealership, i can tell you that they are hit or miss depending on generation and/or choice of engine with the majority of stuff done before 2000 (or an Echo, those things are unkillable) deemed bulletproof when decently maintained. After that, hummm.. Sludge issues on 3.0 V6, crappy 2.4 engines (oil consumption on later ones, failing head bolts and threads on earlier ones), AWD systems that are meh at best and expensive to repair at worst (Rav4, Siennas, Matrix), failing headgaskets and water pumps on gen3 Priuses, failing heat exchanger on gen 4 Priuses and Primes (up to 2020 MY) leaky water pumps on.. everything Toyota… failing headgaskets are a common occurance, crappy rear disk brakes almost everywhere across the lineup, crumbling frames on Tacomas, alignment cams jamming in those Tacomas control arms bushings in short order, (sometimes as little as 2 or 3 years..), failing strut mounts on 2018-up Camry’s, manual transmission bearings made of Papier Maché in the 2011-up Scion TC (some were changed 3 times during the warranty period), subpar rear shafts bearings in 2003-2008 manual Corolla/Matrix, others that doesn’t come to mind right now… and 2 personal Toyota thing that always annoyed the shit out of me but to be honest, may also be the case elsewhere. The relative inability to buy some bushings separately and the obscene parts prices. Your control arm bushing is shot.. I’ll sell you a fucking control arm for 300$… Same thing for the rear knuckle bushings that are almost always shot on a Camry, Venza (ugh) or Highlander that has 4 or 5 years of use.. You need a 5 or 600$ knuckle! Shifter cables for a manual transmission equipped Corolla costs very damn near 1000$ around here and it’s around 500$ for a cable for an autotragic Echo..A far cry from the 160$ ones i bought at Honda.. And if i ever need a control arm bushing on my Civic, my Honda dealer will gladly sell me a 5$ bushing that i will press on.. Meanwhile, except perhaps if it changed in the last 4 months, i’ll have to buy a rear swaybar for my Prius if i ever need to change the RSB bushings as those aren’t sold separately..

      Now, those are my experiences working at a Toyota dealership in Canada with Toyotas that were used on heavily salted roads and i’m sure someone that used to work at a Honda dealership in those same conditions would say similar things. That’s what my teacher at the trade school called “a bad case of dealer syndrome”. He used to work at a Chevy dealership and now he says that he won’t ever touch one with a 10 foot pole..

      My two cents?! I think that both Toyota and Honda started to loose their touch at the beginning of the 2000’s.. Now, with that being said, i own both a 300k miles Civic Si (K24/SY1M) that lived most of it’s life on highways, traffic and racetracks and a 2021 Prius Prime that so far is giving me more trouble then my, for the most part, “abused on tracks” Civic. Nothing serious but things that annoys the fuck out of me. Failing radios, rattles and squeaks that both the dealership and i can’t locate (AND I’M ALLERGIC TO RATTLES), windows that frosts on the inside even if the carpets are DRY (the dehumidifier in my garage made sure of that) and the most offending offender, it’s propensity to turning fresh oil onto mayonaise that i hope my new, farther away job will take care of.. Still love the car but sometimes, it’s testing my patience a bit..

      1. There’s also the bias of working at a place whose purpose is to repair cars. It’s not super surprising you saw a lot of broken cars 😀

    3. My 17 yo Accord disagrees. Its been quite reliable.

      I think the key to that has been its 4 cyl NA K24 engine with a timing chain, an under stressed transmission, regular on schedule fluid changes and not driving it like a coke fueled maniac running late.

  25. Cool. So my mother in law has one of these, lives in Utah right next to the ski resorts (cold) and pretty much uses it exclusively for short trips. Thats nice. I guess I will let my FIL know to check the oil frequently.

        1. That’s ironic. When my wife tried skiing for the first time we went to A Basin. After 6 hours we finally got her down to the bottom. Seriously.

          That was the only time in 40 years she ever mentioned divorce.

            1. Exactly. She had seen my 2 1/2 year old niece go from the top to bottom several times without issue and she thought “if Haley can do it so can I.” As soon as she exited the chair at the top she did a face plant!
              God bless that poor woman. Lessons were learned that day for sure.

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