The annual J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey (IQS) is out and, for the first time ever, it includes data from franchised dealership repair visits to give a broader sense of what’s bugging new car owners. Right at the top are electric cars, with way more problems per vehicle than gas-powered cars. Is nuance required here? Yes.
I’m getting two stories out of the IQS this year because of the other quirk, which is that somehow Ram is at the top of the rankings with the fewest problems, and Dodge is at the bottom, with the most problems. Whaaaa?
We are now officially in the third quarter of the year (life comes at you fast, don’t it?) and that means sales numbers for pretty much everyone will come in over the next two weeks. Our first big glimpse of the numbers is from analyst estimates for Tesla and, well, they don’t look great.
Finally, we’ll see how much CDK Global’s ransomware attack impacts June sales, but at the very least we get the company’s CEO thanking dealers for their “heroism.”
What’s The Deal With Electric Cars In The IQS?
The J.D. Power survey of initial quality is an imperfect measure that relies on consumers and, now, franchised dealers, for data. It’s also probably the best publicly available measure of initial quality and has been going long enough to be able to see trends.
Let’s start with the quote from the J.D. Power 2024 IQS that first struck me:
“Owners of cutting edge, tech-filled BEVs and PHEVs are experiencing problems that are of a severity level high enough for them to take their new vehicle into the dealership at a rate three times higher than that of gas-powered vehicle owners.”
The inclusion of PHEVs almost makes sense, as these are complicated machines with two different powertrains working together; still, hybrids seem to work fine, and the biggest difference usually is just more battery and a plug…
Weren’t battery-electric vehicles supposed to be simpler? Weren’t they supposed to require less care? That doesn’t seem to be what’s happening:
Gas- and diesel-powered vehicles average 180 PP100 this year, while BEVs are 86 points higher at 266 PP100.
PP100 is problems per 100 vehicles, FYI.
If you’re a Tesla fan you might be looking at the inclusion of dealer data and thinking to yourself that this is a non-Tesla OEM problem, and in the past, Tesla has tended to perform better than traditional carmakers when it comes to the IQS. This year?
While there are no notable improvements in BEV quality this year, the gap between Tesla’s BEV quality and that of traditional OEMs’ BEV quality has closed, with both at 266 PP100.
So what’s going on here? Quite simply, cars are becoming increasingly complex and software-addled, creating all sorts of problems. Both EVs and PHEVs are generally out on the extreme of what automakers are offering from a software/feature perspective as they try to appeal to more tech-forward consumers.
According to J.D. Power, the biggest issues are:
- Constant warnings from driver safety systems like reverse automatic emergency braking, traffic warnings, rear-set reminders, and other modern safety features that are inaccurate or overwhelming.
- Connectivity issues for Android Auto and Apple CarPlay
- Infotainment woes in general, which are complained about 30% more in BEV vehicles versus ICE vehicles
In particular, J.D. Power says Telsa owners are bummed about some very specific changes:
In the past, Tesla has performed better, but that is not the case this year and the removal of traditional feature controls, such as turn signals and wiper stalks, has not been well received by Tesla customers.
It seems like everyone who isn’t Tesla needs to work on making all of their “advanced” systems perform better, which is no surprise. And it seems like Tesla should maybe take a step back and try to add a few physical controls to its vehicles.
If there’s anyone screwing up the curve here it’s Polestar, with an overall worst 316 PP100.
Ram Tops The IQS, Dodge… Not So Much
Here’s a strange quirk of the IQS. Ram, the Stellantis truck brand, topped the IQS with a low low 149 PP100.
There’s a little logic to this, I suppose. Ram basically makes two vehicles: The Ram Promaster Van and the Ram truck in various sizes/trims/payload ratings. With only a few vehicle lines, Stellantis can focus on making those popular and highly profitable vehicles.
Also, while trucks do have a lot of technology, Stellantis vehicles are typically a little behind their competitors which, in this case, might be an aid.
But would that explain why the Dodge brand is suddenly the rotten strawberries at the bottom of the Stellantis Yoplait yogurt cup? Not quite. Dodge isn’t just at the bottom of the survey, it’s in a league of its own when it comes to traditional brands, with 301 problems for every 100 vehicles made. The two closest traditional brands are Volvo and Audi with 242 PP100. That’s a big gulf.
As a refresher, Dodge sells the Charger/Challenger (but no longer builds them), the Durango, and the Dodge Hornet.
Just a wild guess here, but the extremely troubled Dodge Hornet did it. Owner complaints are, anecdotally at least, extremely common. It’s also one of two vehicles from Dodge that are in current production, with the other being the tried-and-true Durango, which is built at the not-so-tried-and-true Jefferson North facility. That maybe also has something to do with it.
Tesla Is Likely To See Lower Sales In Q2 2024
Tesla has shifted from focusing on selling cars to, I don’t know, robots or whatever. Elon Musk has billions of dollars and I don’t (though I do have a 21-year-old BMW with 236k miles on it, so I’m not sweating it either).
The slow update of its cars hasn’t helped the brand build sales and, as of yet, the Cybertruck hasn’t seemed to boost numbers.
The company is expected to deliver 438,019 vehicles for the April to June period, according to an average estimate based on forecasts from 12 analysts polled by LSEG, seven of whom slashed their expectations in the past three months. The EV maker is expected to announce the results on Tuesday.
Tesla has hit a speed bump after years of rapid growth that helped make it the world’s most valuable automaker. It warned in January that deliveries growth in 2024 would be “notably lower” as a boost from months-long price cuts wanes.
By comparison, Tesla sold 466,140 vehicles in Q2 of 2023.
With a ton of other automakers crowding the space and getting closer on cost, some of this was probably inevitable. If the EV transition continued at its former pace maybe it could keep growing sales, but in a market that’s maturing it’s a lot harder to sell cars that seem old to people who may or may not like the CEO.
CDK Global CEO Calls Dealers ‘Heroes’ For Pressing Forward
The CDK Global ransomware attack is not quite resolved and there are many questions about when, exactly, all dealers will be back to normal and what the total monetary fallout will be. The role of private equity and the performance of its CEO Brian MacDonald are also big questions that will also need to be answered.
What’s MacDonald saying? According to Automotive News, he sent a letter to the company’s dealership customers thanking them for being heroes.
“Over the past several days, I have spoken to and exchanged countless emails and texts with many dealers, OEMs, and partners,” MacDonald wrote. “I have never in my life been so humbled and grateful for the offers of assistance, advice and shared compassion to get through this together for the benefit of the industry.”
MacDonald wrote he also was “witnessing the heroism of each of you and your dealership team members doing whatever it takes to serve your customers.”
This is sort of like a tornado lauding the employees of a flattened Walmart for their hard work, but what do you expect the guy to say?
Over at r/partscounter the reaction is, uh, not great:
Unfortunately, Brian being proud of our resilience doesn’t pay my bills next month.
It doesn’t fix the 2000 parts we have sitting in the back that will take several days or weeks to process.
It doesn’t pay me for the next couple of weeks requiring many late nights and weekends working to reconcile this mess.
It doesn’t fix the several hundred RO’s we have to write, or the couple thousand parts that have been handed out and need reconciled.
Yup.
What I’m Listening To While Writing TMD
I kinda slept on Chappell Roan’s “The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess” and its catchy, ’80s-inflected, horny, funny vibe. Thankfully, she shot the video for “HOT TO GO” in my friend’s small Missouri town and he sent it to me and I gave it a fuller listen. This song is clearly about fornication but, and perhaps this is an age thing, it mostly makes me want a pizza. Also, a YouTube commenter called this the “Lesbian YMCA.”
The Big Question
Do you care what JD Power says? What are the vibes?
That video is a joy, thanks for posting!
Also my EV experience with Ford has been suboptimal. The dealers are totally unprepared for these cars/trucks.
And Ford flinched first, so dealers won’t have to comply with the (fairly reasonable) EV certification requirements. So expect it to be bad for some time.
yeah it sucks, I love(d) my Lightning but the support is half-ass at best. You really have to tolerate some bullshit to own one of their EVs. I had to lemon law mine (for a backordered part) and I am gun shy about buying another one. The truck itself is fantastic.
I ran across a dealer that specialized in selling the (hopefully repaired) lemon law Ford EVs. It’s too bad they aren’t nailing the ownership experience, since they really nailed making an EV pickup that’s a normal, usable pickup.
Many, perhaps most, of the lemon’d Lightnings and Mach-Es are due to backordered parts. Some of them had battery module failures. Mine just needs a heater module. I believe any lemon’d car comes with a report stating why it was returned.
As an aside, the ford “Buy back” process is like negotiating with a scummy used car dealer, only in reverse. Ford is really trying to get me in a Rivian.
Yeah, the reports varied, but there were a lot of battery module failures, charging failures, and controller failures, all of which I assume were bought back because the parts couldn’t be sourced in a reasonable time frame. A lot of the Mach E GTs had repeated suspension issues, but most other issues recurred maybe once or twice before the buyback.
this is where a Ford Extended Service Plan really has value! those modules are $5K a pop plus labor! Based on my experience I’d buy a returned Lightning if the deal was good enough.
ya, the JDP IQS methodology is sloppy. i’d like to see their data analyzed with an FMEA mindset: assign each complaint/problem a score for frequency, detectability and severity. it occurs to me that a software flaw resulting in automated and unintended panic stop has a higher impact (no pun intended) than having to re-pair a BT phone – high severity vs low…
also, my AI summary of CDK CEO message to dealers: “I got mine! you’re on your own, suckers!”
I’m a sample size of 1, but my 2021 RAM 1500 is my least reliable vehicle. Nothing major and nothing that affected drivability, but lots of little things and a lot of recalls.
My PHEV’s have been pretty flawless. Also, I’d say any GM vehicles I’ve had in the last 15 years or so have been very trouble free.
I do get the feeling that a lot of EV’s got rushed to market with some software bugs that aren’t really easy to fix at the dealership level.
Are we really saying that Tesla owners are taking their cars in for service because they don’t have turn signal stalks??? Reports like these are useless if they don’t distinguish between quality problems and design problems.
EVs are software cars. Most cars are, but they definitely are. I have a 12 year old vehicle and plan on driving it for a long time. What’s the churn rate on EVs going to be like? Are you still using a 12 year old phone or computer? Have you tried to use old tech, like an old iPod or something? It’s a pain in the ass.
I had to spend an hour with my mother-in-law setting everything up for her with her new Venza. (She picked it, not me. Decent actually.) I’m also her tech support when she messes up her phone. Now expand that to more and more people driving EVs and PHEVs. No wonder people are irritated with car tech.
We have two Leafs (2018 and 2019) and a 2024 Tesla model Y. I feel like the differentiator in all of this will be the manufacturers and whether they follow the Tesla/Rivian model or drag their heels and follow the traditional make-it-and-forget-it model. On our Tesla, we have had 6 OTA (over the air) updates to the vehicle since buying it. Every one of them has improved the vehicle, and half of them have added new functionality to it. Through this approach, Tesla, Rivian, and to a lesser extent, Ford, design the software stack and interconnect physical vehicle functions in its architecture such that they can/do heavily lean into constant tweaking and improvements through those OTA updates. Buy a Rivian today, and it will be a better, more refined, more capable vehicle with more functionality 6 months down the road. That vehicle will get better as years roll by.
In the other model, the traditional manufacturer model, they build the car, they sell the car, and they move along. It’s the same car 6 years after you buy it as it was on the day of purchase. The best vehicles of the future will come from manufacturers that maintain a focus on overall physical build quality that can/does last hundreds of thousands of miles, while combining it with a ground up electrical/software design and interconnectivity that will allow them to consistently update and improve their vehicles. I would expect buyers will be even more inclined to hang on to a vehicle that is built well and keeps getting better throughout its life cycle than the ones that are the same throughout.
Don’t forget reparability. Replacement parts should be plug and play. No BS that forces you back to the stealership. You should be able to get all of the tools necessary to repair anything in the car at your local AutoZone, O’Reillys, NAPA, Harbor Freight, Walmart, ect.
The battery also needs to be accessible, with a fully open-source BMS and software, standardized/readily available components, and also able to be fixed with basic tools and a guide published on how to repair depending upon the problem, as well as a publication showing the methodology to completely replace the entire pack if need be and a way to replace the pack without taking the entire car apart. No more of this “battery as a structural member of the car” BS we’re seeing.
This will help to keep the cars out of landfills as they age.
EV drivetrains are good enough that if you design the car right, a college kid should be able to get it as a new car in their teens, keep the car in good operating order for cheap, and after 2-3 battery pack replacements along the way, pass it onto their grand children as a usable daily driver that could confidently take a trip across the USA on a whim with over 2 million miles on it. Anything less is a total waste of the electric drive technology because of how simple, long-lasting, and robust it is. The rest of the car absolutely should be built to take advantage of that, if the goal really is saving the Earth.
EVs should be putting old mechanical-injection diesel Mercedes and old early 90s Toyota small trucks to shame when it comes to longevity, since they use much simpler powertrain systems. Everything that makes the EV go shouldn’t be any more complicated or difficult to work on than what goes into a hobbyist-built ebike.
Agree with ALL of the above, except maybe the 2-3 battery packs part. There are tons of multi-hundred thousand mile Tesla battery packs on the road with minimal degradation and a few million-mile ones already, and the battery tech keeps improving. With pack longevity and degradation, it really comes down to charge method and frequency, and user knowledge of the simple ways to improve both metrics.
Shelf life is the limiting factor on longevity, not so much cycle life. In 15-20 years, that battery pack will be shot, even if it has 0 miles on it if it’s Li Ion. For LiFePO4, that is still an unknown.
Once solid state batteries are a thing, that will change.
The average car on the road in the US is 12 years old. Rule of thumb I’d figure lifetime should be at least 24 years (half more than average, half less). The cost of operation (aside from purchase price and fuel cost) for a medium size sedan was $0.1064/mile, according to the AAA (probably a bit more, since the AAA may ignore older vehicles). Mechanicals are likely just as good or better than older ICEV, we need to see that the total (including battery replacements) isn’t more than that.
From what I’ve seen so far, of the mainstream manufacturers, only the products from Tesla have the potential to prove themselves cheaper to operate than similar ICE cars over the long term. And even there, it will be hit or miss depending upon owner and their use case.
Hyundai’s offerings, Rivian(in spite of their nightmarish post-accident repair costs), the Nissan Leaf, and perhaps the Chevrolet Bolt may prove cheap to operate as well. We need more time to tell.
I wouldn’t touch any of the other modern EVs available in the USA with a 10-foot pole. They’ve been deliberately designed to drain your wallet.
You forgot Personal Protective Equipment, but other than that I agree. Right-to-repair would be nice. People should have the right to electrocute themselves.
It was implied, but yes, proper PPE is an important and frequently overlooked component of working on ANY vehicle, gasoline, diesel, electric, or whatever else.
I’ve unintentionally started fires working on ebikes(although I was intoxicated while doing so).
If Fisker opened up their designs, they might be able to sell off the remaining stock. And your point here is the counter argument to the infamous “gigacasting” on crack and the car will be totaled. All of today’s BEVs should be completely modular with plug and play parts – but instead the OEMs are making it harder and requiring super-expensive scanners to reset systems and swap out parts – our car buying public’s ignorance of these issues (where they might not buy the car if they understood) is going to screw us all in the long term.
I’m not a fan of the gigacasting approach, UNLESS parts will be guaranteed to be available 3+ decades into the future.
The Fiskers are going to be collectible paperweights. They might gain in value after 30+ years, but they won’t be reliable and/or usable on a daily basis, parts won’t be available, and there will be zero support. Fisker is a grift.
Agree on Fisker in general, but if Magna said – here is what we used and gave you the APIs you could keep them on the road – of course this isn’t going to happen. I imagine most of the bits and pieces under the sheet metal are catalog parts in somebody’s catalog.
The components aren’t the issue. The proprietary software, OTOH…
Consider trying to address software gremlins in a no-longer-functional CODA. Fisker will have a similar set of issues, because there is no manufacturer support.
Yes, the software would have to be opened up – I was suggesting just giving us APIs to all the key modules, but you might need more sourcecode to make everything work.
I will think OTA updates are desirable only when I control the connection and when communication (and what is communicated) happens only at my personal discretion. Preferably updates that I can DL and put on a USB stick to update the car with.
On the Leafs — I had a 2016 Leaf. The phone app and its link to the car’s screen went unsupported when the car was, I think, 4 years old (perhaps 5). It never worked properly before then, from new. Fortunately, the car could be used without the phone app.
The hilarious part of this was that Nissan thought that they could charge for the app. They never did: it was free for the first 3 years and then Nissan extended the free use for a couple of years, until they discontinued it.
I expect a similar fate will soon befall your Leafs.
Yeah, I don’t think our Leafs have ever been updated. The software and UI is EXTREMELY dated.
How’s the battery pack holding up? What generation of Leaf is it?
I am of the opinion the 1st gen Leaf had the right approach, EXCEPT that it demanded too much power from the battery for the use case. Had they limited it to around 40 peak horsepower, that battery wouldn’t have had thermal degradation issues.
If a thermal management system can be avoided, that is the best route to take, IMO. Don’t demand too much from it. A pack with less internal resistance and a chemistry with more heat tolerance, would end the issue with no thermal management needed.
The complex cooling systems used in vehicles like the Porsche Taycan, you won’t be able to get replacement parts in 25 years…
Both are Gen 2. The 2018 my daughter recently bought has 55k miles and the base battery pack. At full charge, it gets 118 miles (they got 125 when new). My son has the 2019, also gen 2 and it only has 18k miles and the Plus pack. It’s still good for its original 225 miles. Of course, those numbers are ‘on paper’ and once you depress the accelerator, it then depends on all the standard variables that determine actual range. We live just outside Portland, Oregon in the foothills. Both of them drive in Eco mode and ‘B’ for max regeneration. Neither uses the e-pedal mode (1 pedal driving). Both vehicles are charged at home on a level 2 charger and have rarely been DC fast charged.
I definitely agree about the passive cooling/low power demand approach, but those vehicles probably also wouldn’t last in hot climates. Trying to cool a battery, even at low power demand, with 100, 110, 110+ degree air is just a very tall order. I’d be very curious to see how that approach might work with the newer LFP chemistry batteries out in the wild now. All of those applications are actively cooled with high power demand, so someone would have to purpose-build one to ever know the answer.
How about you? What gen do you have, and how’s the pack? We got our first Leaf in 2010 on lease, and kept getting them until we finally bought ours out (the 18k model listed above) at the end of our lease in 2021 when new/used car prices were in the stratosphere.
“Have you tried to use old tech, like an old iPod or something?”
Yeah, I just replaced the battery in mine and it’s a delight having my music physically loaded onto a device that allows me access to my library when I’m out of internet reception, and it also has a 3.5mm headphone jack, which makes it scads better than my more-modern hardware. It just works, plus it doesn’t constantly need security updates.
This is probably a good example of why a ~50k depreciating asset shouldn’t be a monument to whatever is currently trendy in tech.
My Tesla can play music from a USB stick that is plugged into one of the USB slots.
My car doesn’t have an easy attack surface that allows direct access to the onboard computer.
I love my iPod nano – I keep it with my noise canceling headphones loaded with a mix of “travel” tunes.
Can I be the exception that proves the rule? I actually have a 14 year old computer.
Built in 2010 to monstrous specs, today it kind of gets by with double the original memory, all the HDDs swapped out to SSDs, and windows 10. The upcoming end of support for win10 will finally kill it, and from what I can tell, Microsoft intends to make sure the replacement ensures I can never get away with something like this again.
“I can never get away with something like this again”
This looks like a job for… LINUX!!
Wake me when I can play every game in my collection on Steam/GOG on Linux.
(Please…I really do want to get away from Windows but that’s a big friggin obstacle.)
It’s a data point I might consider, but certainly not a primary one. I want to know what problems people have, not just how many. As Angrycat has already pointed out, there’s a very real chance that people are going back because they don’t understand things, rather than things actually breaking. While confusing controls are far from ideal, I’m easily able to judge that for myself.
If I might buy a vehicle, I’ll go to forums for that vehicle and see the problems people have and the fixes they come up with. That tells me a lot more about whether I’m willing to deal with things that may come up.
CDK Global CEO’s comments are have the same meaning as when a customer looks you in the eye and says, “I appreciate you” as they are writing a big fat ZERO on the tip line of their receipt.
Your confusing “I appreciate you” with “I fucking ALREADY paid you!!”
Common mistake.
Figured it was the Hornet. Whats surprising is the gap between Alfa and Dodge.
I’m not going to lie, when I saw Alfa’s spot on that list my mind immediately went “Have they even sold enough cars to be on this list?!”
Not a charitable thought, to be sure, but I see Alfa’s infrequently that it becomes an event when I do. Unfortunately, that rare event occurs, they are always older ones on their third owners and bumpers hanging off.
I always find it puzzling when the people that have made zillions using computers to replace people suddenly have a problem.
Sorta like the people that move next to an airport and complain about the noise.
If you have 800 auto parts to take care of get a few humans to work it out.
I just made an appointment at my Kia dealership to add both anti theft devices (including stickers) and HECU fuses for my 2012 Soul. CDK seemed to be working just fine. Thoughts for John Force!
are they on CDK or one of the other systems- Reynolds, Tekion, Dealertrack. etc?
Yes, get those updates. Before the updates, mine was stolen once and attempted twice. After the decals, not yet so far, though one potential thief did leave somebody else’s plastic lower steering column shroud (the part that gets broken off to get at the good stuff) sitting on my hood, but they didn’t break my window or destroy the steering column. Not sure what the message was supposed to be.
Didn’t the Hummer H2 get hammered in JD quality rankings because so many people reported it as broken due to how poor the gas mileage was?
I’d be lost if I owned an EV and wanted to tinker with something. ICE vehicles are a little more approachable. So it follows that people take them in. Service may be where the money is in a post-electrification world.
“If there’s anyone screwing up the curve here it’s Polestar, with an overall worst 316 PP100.”
Before and after this line, I had ads for Polestar, and it cracked me up!
JD Powers?
Cynical indifference, as I don’t buy new cars. By the time I’m buying a model, I can find its’ Achilles’ Heel (apparently kids these days say Kryptonite instead?) on the forums.
The Hot To Go video gave me strong Go-Go’s vibes. No pizza cravings to report—but it did engender a strange wistful nostalgia for an A&W Rootbeer shack west of Iowa City
I don’t put much stock in JD Power, or any other company that’s basically formed to provide marketing for the products it “reviews”. That said, I don’t generally buy cars based on quality; I assume that pretty much any car around should go 200K miles and it’s unlikely that I’ll keep it that long anyway. That said, there are a few brands I stay away from due to reputation and past experience – looking at you, Subaru.
It doesn’t surprise me that most of the problems that are reported are software related. Of the 6 or 7 recalls I’ve had on my Ford Maverick, only one was a hardware issue (the airbag). Software designers have a long history of releasing glitchy products and “fixing” them later. This doesn’t seem to have changed just because it’s now software for the automotive industry.
So we’re saying the second best brand is 1.6 visits per car and the second worst is 2.4 visits per car? Which means, when rounded, about two visits per car whether you are the “most reliable” or “least reliable” brand? Yeah, that’s really impressive guys….I think the conclusion is actually that everybody kinda just sucks….
Or that cars today are so generally reliable that there is little statistical difference separating the top of the list from the bottom.
Compare this to years ago, when “Sample Defects” was part of every Consumer Reports review format for every car. E.g., “We found 9 sample defects on our Ford Escort, including a stuck ventilation grate, a missing pillar trim piece, an inoperative dome light switch…”, etc. Back then there was a significant difference in quality between say the number one ranked car, and the eighth — let alone the 25th.
I am mostly okay with JD Power rankings. I don’t think their methodology is perfect, but I also don’t think a perfect way to measure initial quality and reliability exists. Their results usually produce a few weird outliers as we see here, but I find that the middle of the bell curve so to speak is usually in line with most other attempts to statistically analyze reliability and quality.
I’m not surprised to see most of the usual suspects ranked highly or the usual suspects ranked poorly. Volkswagen and Audi are always horrendous and that tracks with pretty much every other measure other than subjective experiences of some owners. The numbers always say they’re piss poor, but the people who get good ones really, really, really like them, as we frequently see in this very comment section.
Japanese manufacturers are usually towards the top. I’m not at all surprised to see Toyota dip because the roll out of that turbo V6 has been a disaster and it’s in a lot of vehicles. They’re not used to turbocharging on a wide scale and I’d imagine they’ll get it figured out soon enough. I’m surprised but pleased to see Hyundai as high as they are. I’ve had a great experience with mine and am trying to sell my wife on the new Santa Fe hybrid, so these data points will help my case.
Anyway, will this finally make manufacturers realize that no one wants button-less rolling tablets? I doubt it, but stop chasing the goddamn Tesla dragon already. One of the reasons people don’t want EVs is that there’s a massive and totally unnecessary learning curve associated with them because everyone insisted on making them rolling beta tests for every piece of technology they could cram in them.
If you want people to buy EVs make them more affordable and make them easier to use. I doubt there will be 300 complaints per 100 cars or whatever it is if you can just get in and operate it like a normal car. People get confused and frustrated when they have to click through 7 different menus on a touch screen to use the damn ventilated seats and turn off the obnoxious lane centering assist. Because…of course they do. We’ve been saying this for years.
Owning a Hyundai was a great experience until it had to go to the dealer because it had a serious drinking problem. Although they fixed the drinking problem with a transplant, it was still a terrible experience overall. I thought the kicker was when they told me it needed a new clutch AFTER putting the engine back in(asking $1600 labor ????????????), but it was really when I was charged $2800 for the rental car they arranged for me and were supposed to pay for(they had a dispute with the rental company but I’m still pissed it became my problem and has been my problem for two months now).
How many of these reported problems are because people can’t figure out the tech in their cars?
I know software problems are real. I’ve had them in my gas car, even. (Looking at you, VW.) But, consider user error as well.. some of which can be attributed to bad UI and some of which is just plain not being able to figure stuff out.
The JD Power article covers that (the answer is yes, some, most?) https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-initial-quality-study-iqs
“Often, owners don’t understand what warnings mean”
CarPlay: “Customers most frequently experience difficulties connecting to their vehicle or losing connection”
“Features, controls and displays is the second most problematic category in the study”
Even ignoring JD Power’s “methodology” and business model, there’s selection bias. People buying different brands are looking for different things in their vehicles, and will count various aspects of “quality” differently.
It’s just too crude a measure to mean much, outside the marketing claims it was made to enable.
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that they weigh different problems differently, like “touchscreen button slightly too small” is not given the same weight as “drivetrain problem, vehicle immobilized til they could tow it to the shop and fix it.”
There is absolutely no indication in the article that their PP100 numbers have any connection to severity. Perhaps some other reports may take account of severity, but I don’t think the numbers reported above do. In fact, there is much discussion of the fact that the “problems” are of the PEBKAC [PEBSWAS in this case] nature.
I didn’t listen when E.F. Hutton talked, and I don’t listen to J.D. Power, either.
I saw Chappell Roan live in concert recently, and she totally lives up to the hype around her. I love that the opening act in all of her live shows are local drag queens in whatever city she’s playing.
I’m curious whether her creativity is an ongoing, sustainable thing, or if this will really be “The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess”.
And while I do truly enjoy “HOT TO GO” and the description of it as “Lesbian YMCA”, I like almost every one of her other songs even more.
I’m really into Naked in Manhattan right now
I’ve watched her NPR Tiny Desk Concert at least 20 times now. Although HTG is an easier gateway, the Tiny Desk Concert is an amazing intro to who she is and what’s she’s all about.
I first heard of Chappell Roan on Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me like two months ago and am so happy I did.
Tech in modern cars is so dependent on well designed and engineered software. But one of the traps with software is you can decide to get a minimum viable product out the door with a “patch it later” approach. It’s bad enough when it’s the infotainment; when it affects driver assistance packages that’s basically criminally negligent. So we’re seeing hardware that might be fine hampered by glitchy/unrefined/unintuitive software when it first gets in customers’ hands. Carmakers are also reinventing wheels THAT DON’T NEED REINVENTION just to shoehorn existing functions into touchscreens for manufacturing efficiencies (cheapening) and mODeRnIZaTiOn.
I feel for folks who maybe aren’t tech savvy when they have to buy their next new cars. Knowledge and experience they’ve already internalized gets thrown out the window when these drivers encounter an-in car OS with core features buried in screens and menus they’ve never encountered in other cars are other personal tech they may own. Or having to RTFM to figure out an inscrutable new automatic transmission interface that’s different just for the sake of being different.
Long story short, it’s no surprise these intitial quality scores are where they are since “move fast and break things” has infected everything.
Came here to say similar – delivering reliable software with a good user interfaces is NOT EASY. It takes a kind of humility and engineering discipline most software devs aren’t raised with, but more importantly, that managers and marketing folks have no awareness of.
A powertrain team can push back on an 11th-hour demand to add an extra gear to the transmission because of physical engineering reality, but software is “easy” right?
I think software for aircraft is meticulously tested and reviewed before being issued. It should be no different for cars (failures might be less deadly, but there are a lot more cars than airplanes). Maybe we need to get the FAA involved.
EVs are simpler. The fact that they have more problems than gasoline/diesel ICE vehicles is one of too much software/tech needlessly expanding the number of potential problems and failure points, not the fact that the cars have an electric powertrain. EV problems in fact have a lot of overlap with ICE problems, because of all of the tech in modern cars regardless of how it is powered.
Without the need for complex emissions controls, EVs are something that could/should be made as analogue as possible and repairable with basic tools. The fact that they are not was a deliberate decision on part of industry to nickel and dime customers, and not a flaw inherent to the electric drive system. It wasn’t until the auto industry figured out how to seal off access for repairs to indy mechanics and DIYers via proprietary dealership-only tools/software that EVs were then offered to the masses. Before that, industry was rabidly against them being available, because they offered the possibility of reduced maintenance/operating costs and a greatly increased vehicle lifespan vs ICE, which meant less of your money flowing to the auto industry.
It’s really a travesty. The electric drive technology and the potential to reduce resource consumption that it allows is being squandered as landfill fodder and being rendered into something worse for the environment than gasoline ICE because of corporate greed.
As of right now, a moderately efficient ICE car from the 1990s(eg. Geo Metro XFI, Honda CRX HF), restored, is more ecologically sustainable to use as a daily than modern EVs. Things shouldn’t be this way. Not when an electric motor can last 1 million+ miles regularly without having to do anything to it.
This is the same reason why despite the small, relatively cheap Chevy Bolt being the bestselling legacy-automaker EV (and before it the Nissan Leaf), automakers rushed to make a $50,000 midsize CUV the minimum buy-in to go electric and have a $90k “lifestyle” pickup as the only alternative – never mind the demand, think of the margins. “Shareholder value-first ” capitalism is breaking this country’s industries.
The potential exists for the minimum buy-in to be a sub-$15,000 compact car capable of seating 5 with 150+ miles range and the performance of a Mitsubishi Mirage.
We basically have that in other parts of the world with the $11,400 BYD Seagull, but the established automakers that have a foothold in the U.S. used their lobbyists to write laws to keep those out of the USA which they then bribed our so-called “representatives” that tax us to death to pass.
I trust JD Power Absolutely ZERO for anything. Their methodology is flawed and intentionally obfuscated to avoid scrutiny, and it is abundantly clear that certain manufacturers *Cough GM Cough* pay to create award categories that their brands just so happen to be at the top of, to then blast into advertising.
The Initial Quality awards especially annoy me because they don’t separate or delineate software bugs from mechanical problems, to general design issues or usability. As a younger consumer, I can deal with less conventional software just fine, but I want to know if my car has baked in mechanical issues that I will have to deal with.
A Rivian eating a set of tires in 20k miles because of “conserve” mode lowering the truck and adding too much camber should not have the same IQS impact as some Baby Boomer not understanding how to navigate a climate control touch screen (although buttons FTW, obviously)
EDIT: for similar reasons as JD Power, I will no longer even remotely trust the opinions of Motor Trends X-Of The Year. Giving the Blazer EV its COTY or SUVOTY or whatever category of the year before a single review was even published is an absolute travesty of journalism, and shows just how low their editorial standards have fallen. Besides, the Blazer EV is demonstrably middle of the pack at best based on cost, range, power, and space.
When I worked for a Tier 1 auto supplier, we had a lot of issues with JD Power. One of the cars we made parts for was absolutely trashed in the rankings. However, there were very few real issues with reliability. Only customer perception and preference, which is a moving target. NVH that was best in class 20 years ago may be unacceptable today.
That’s exactly it. And to add to the moving target, it’s all reported by buyers, and certain brands have wildly different demographics than others even within the same category. It’s also weighted by which vehicles sell more than others. So while Ford has the most recalls of new vehicles for several years now, their IQS result is better than Honda.
Why? because they sell so. many. trucks. and As we all know, most American truck buyers are the most tribal group of all, and they make so many F-150s that there aren’t that many problems. But everything else? Oh boy, good luck!
Now, this is an incredibly hard area to measure well, but JD Power doesn’t even try, and Consumer Reports does try, but when your sample base is the general public, it’s data that us enthusiasts wouldn’t want to trust anyways.
If you’re selling a car with the NVH of something from 20 years ago you do have a quality problem though. It’s like if you released something with terrible suspension tuning and claimed that wasn’t a quality problem because it still rides better than a Conestoga wagon.
Quality standards change. That’s not JD Power’s fault. They’re reflecting those standards, not creating them.
https://thehardtimes.net/blog/im-jd-power-and-these-are-my-associates-sure-would-be-a-shame-if-your-car-didnt-win-any-awards/
I pay some attention to JD Power, Consumer Reports, etc. but as I’ve stated before my primary source of knowledge when researching a vehicle is forums. I simply trust a large group of owners that self-select for some degree of passion and competence more than any other source. I can use my own judgment over what “initial quality issues” I’d be able to avoid, mitigate, or that simply aren’t a big deal in a way that JD Power doesn’t allow for.
The forums effectively ruled out a CX90 for us. I haven’t seen an chasm of automotive misery on that scale since I browsed Maserati Ghibli forums…
Forums are only of limited use. The might reveal common issues, but they are inhabited by both “brand stans” and “haters” which makes the majority of content worthless.
I mean, you need to have an education above say, third grade to be able to sort the useless posts from the valuable ones, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that the majority of commenters here can clear that bar.
On most forums I frequent, even fans of the brand will acknowledge some known problems. Most of the time they’ll handwave them away, but at least you’ll know what you might run into.
Not my experience. I complained recently about my cell phone provider and got roasted by brand stans. MY CELL PHONE PROVIDER. Who stans a cell phone provider?!?
Cybertruck owners? I can’t imagine anyone else with enough blind brand loyalty to do that. 😉
I trust JD Power’s thoughts on cars about as much as my great aunt Ethel, but I’ve always wondered, are they actively filtering for “problems” that are really just the owner not RTFM/understanding how their car works/understanding how AA/CP works?
Well in the past I’ve seen that “infotainment” is high on the list of reported problems, but of course that doesn’t break it down by “I can’t figure out how to…”, “the screen goes blank and I can’t use the climate or audio” or “I have to constantly re-pair my phone”.
The first one could be as simple as failing to RTFM or a salesperson not explaining anything, or it could be that the mfg buried a frequently used control 5 levels down a path in a menu where you wouldn’t expect said function to reside. The last one could be the phone, or a problem on the car side, while the 2nd one is most likely an issue with the vehicle.
Yeah, but as long as the function works it’s not a problem, it’s working as designed.
JD Power seems to be using the term “problem” in the broadest sense, so I do see how stuff like this could be included, but I wholly disagree with it. To me a “problem” is pressing the button for the turn signal (lol), and it not working. A problem isn’t that it’s a button because that’s the car you bought. You bought it like that. The blinker blinks when you push the button, it functions as designed and it’s your fault for buying it despite that. It seems they’re not only trying to measure how well engineered and put together a car is, but also how annoying it is and to me only one of those things is “quality”.
Define quality. A case could be made that poor interface design is a quality issue, but like you I’m more concerned with the blinker not blinking when the button is pushed rather than the car has a poor choice of how to activate the turn signal.
Yeah, I see where they’re coming from looking at quality as a whole. We’re all educated buyers here, so if we buy a car with a function whose activation differs from best practices, we knew what we were getting into. I’d rather see this split up into reports like “is this car going to break?” and “is this car going to annoy me?”. But…that’s not really the point of these survey’s anyway. It’s just money changing hands and some garbage data that’s mostly meaningless.
I agree with your take here. Just because I bought a care with unintuitive controls doesn’t mean it’s problematic, as long as they function as designed. It may be an issue with the car I wasn’t expecting, but it’s not about “reliability”.
JD Power doesn’t address reliability it is all about “quality”. Since this is about their Initial Quality and done when they cars are basically new there isn’t much that can be learned about reliability at least for most vehicles.
My understanding from many years ago when I read about this more in-depth: If a customer says there’s a problem, it counts as a problem, regardless of why the customer thinks there’s a problem.
There will be many false-positives in this method, mainly seen in new tech features. I remember Ford taking a hit as they were introducing one of the new versions of Sync that wasn’t particularly intuitive.
What you can parse from these surveys is a general sense of not only how well the car/software was designed, but how the general dealership experience is as you’re buying a car. A “better” dealer will take the time to make sure you know how to operate the features, and that if there are any issues that pop up before delivery they are addressed.
I would consider a flaw in the infotainment system less important than a drive-train issue but it sounds like JD counts any dealer visit equally.