The addition of a manual gearbox to the Toyota GR Supra has been widely celebrated by enthusiasts, but the automatic is still the better choice for many. While discounting any manual gearbox option might get me banished from certain auto enthusiast circles, I believe the ZF 8HP automatic can go toe-to-toe with the manual gearbox that’s available in the Supra and even outperform it on track. Don’t let the appeal of a clutch blind you to what’s turned out to be one of the best gearboxes available for a modern sports car.
An automatic was the only available gearbox on the debut of the fifth generation Toyota GR Supra to the dismay of many enthusiasts as Parker wrote recently, but the ZF 8HP 8-speed is built for maximum efficiency with just five shift elements.
These shift elements are combined with three multi-disk clutches and two brakes that result in a lightweight package that shifts quickly. That configuration allows the 8HP to only open two shift elements per gear and can result in shifts that are as fast as 200 milliseconds depending on the configuration. This type of shift speed puts it in line with the 6-speed automated sequential that Lexus put into the LFA supercar.
(Full Disclosure: Toyota loaned me a 2023 GR Supra for a week with a full tank of gasoline.)
What Makes The ZF 8HP So Good?
The ZF 8HP became an enthusiast gearbox almost by accident. Its primary design goal was to be as efficient as possible in order to improve fuel economy. But here’s the great thing about an efficient mechanical design: it doesn’t discriminate based on use case, which is how we ended up with a gearbox that offers excellent shift behavior as a side effect of fuel economy goals.
The basic idea of the design with minimal shift elements being opened for each gear change is to reduce the number of parts that are moving in order to prevent losses and increase efficiency to meet fuel economy targets. This behavior is know as a clutch-to-clutch shift as it only requires one shift element to be released and one to be engaged in order to shift to the neighboring gear.
One of the things that always confounded me was why the ZF 8-speed was so much better than the ZF 9-speed, and the answer partly lies in how they are packaged. Since the 8-speed is most typically used in rear-wheel-drive applications and set up in a longitudinal configuration, the case can be longer and have space to arrange various components. In comparison, the 9-speed is set up for transverse application in front-wheel-drive based cars so gear sets have to be nested and dog clutches have to be employed in order to maximize space inside of the case, which can impact shift behavior.
On the other hand, with plenty of space in the case, the 8HP skips the dog clutches for conventional ones and is able to employ just five shift elements which are split between three clutches and two brakes. The brakes lock the rotating shaft to the ground while the clutches are used to couple the rotating shaft to each other. The internal arrangement of the 8HP is so efficient that ZF was able to fit components for an 8-speed in the same size case that they used for their 6HP 6-speed and even reduce the weight of the whole assembly compared to that 6HP. Not only does the 8HP only have the five shift elements seen above, it further maximizes that efficiency by only needing to use three of those five elements in any given gear.
Torque converter is probably the dirtiest phrase that you can say to a car enthusiast but the unit that’s coupled to the ZF 8HP is designed in a similarly efficient manner as the gearbox. The torque converter for the ZF 8HP makes use of a twin-torsional damper which is a device that helps to reduce vibrations. At first glance, this doesn’t seem like a benefit for enthusiasts, but that damping allows for the gearbox to be able to select gears earlier, helping that shift speed without sacrificing low-speed performance. That damper works in conjunction with multiple clutches that are customized to the application of the gearbox to provide earlier gear selection without unwanted vibrations.
Toyota Takes The ZF 8HP Racing
The technical details only tell part of the story and the biggest proof of the effectiveness of that eight-speed automatic may come in the fact that Toyota chose to use it in its GR Supra GT4 race car with some select modifications. The first thing that they did is to convert it into a seven-speed by removing the overdrive gear, which is primarily designed for highway cruising and not necessary on a race track.
In addition to that, the computer running the gearbox gets some motorsport-specific programming to account for things like a pull-and-hold downshift function. Minus some small tweaks, the gearbox itself stays mostly the same internally. This is a huge endorsement of that automatic unit as many other variants of GT4 cars will often go for purpose-built sequential gearboxes.
In addition to the Supra, racing versions of the 8HP have appeared in cars such as the BMW M235i Racing and the BMW M4 GT4. Much like the Supra they get customized programming and supporting modifications such as a racing differential but internally they are mostly the same as their road-going counterparts.
All of this mainly applies to a very specific group of track enthusiasts looking to maximize performance, as slotting an H-pattern manual into gear is very satisfying and can often be the sole reason that some people choose a specific vehicle. The paddles in the automatic Supra provide almost the same level of fun while also offering a highly efficient shifting experience so giving the automatic gearbox a try might offer a surprise for many enthusiasts.
Driving Impressions And The Fun Factor
Rowing your own gears can be fun, but the average manual shift takes more than twice as long as what the ZF 8HP is able to accomplish on its own and isn’t as efficient for those looking to maximize their performance on track. The shift time really comes into play when you want to skip gears, which can come often on track when approaching corners. The 8HP is designed so efficiently that it can use those two shifting elements to not only do a single gear change but in certain cases can drop multiple gears quickly going from as high as eighth down to second incredibly quickly when necessary.
While the paddles may get close to the level of fun of the H-pattern manual that is available I do have to concede that the manual is still the best option for those who aren’t looking for ultimate speed on track and just want something fun for their commute or back roads because Toyota did such a great job with the shifter and the clutch. Just like the automatic option, the manual gearbox is also manufactured by ZF and comes from their S6-53 series. This gearbox is also employed in variety of BMW products but also makes an appearance in the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio and diesel Jaguars in Europe.
The specific version of the S6-53 used in the Supra is the GS6L50TZ model which is loosely based on the GS6L40LZ found in the BMW Z4, but it’s easy to see that Toyota spent time customizing it for the application because it has better shifter and clutch feel than any modern BMW manual that I’ve experienced. Toyota refers to the GS6L50TZ as the L-500 in their service documentation. Shifter movement feels incredibly crisp and the gate spacing is laid out in a very straightforward way while the knob feels satisfying to hold making it hard to find much to complain about when it comes to the shifter.
The clutch pedal does have some of the slightly rubbery feel that is often present in manual BMWs, but it seems less pronounced in the Supra while clutch pedal travel is pretty similar. The pedal box area in the Supra is spacious and since that firewall was originally designed with the clutch pedal mount in mind, everything is laid out in a planned way which is easily compatible with my size thirteen sneakers. The brake pedal is placed close enough to the accelerator for heel-toe action and if you don’t want to be fully involved, the iMT rev-matching functionality will help you along.
My main gripe with the clutch pedal comes from the fact that it occasionally seems to have delays returning after a quick shift and it feels like the return of the clutch pedal isn’t as linear as when it is pressed as it seems to slowly come back up and then slap the bottom of my foot when it gets close to the top of its range. This is probably the biggest area that stood out for me as a detriment when it comes to comparing upshifts between the manual and the automatic.
There’s Nothing Tragic About Getting The Automatic
We often criticize paddle shifters in automatic cars for their delay, but in the case of the Supra it often shifts faster in those lower gears than the manual due to some of the delays with that clutch system, which is why the automatic is the better option for track duty. That clutch delay is not always prominent and appears to be a feature of a component called a Clutch Delay Valve (CDV) that is intended as a buffer on clutch action in order to reduce shock on the drivetrain and improve durability. Searching some enthusiasts groups shows that the CDV can be removed, but I can’t say what the long-term effects of removing such a part would be as automotive manufacturers don’t typically add parts don’t typically add parts unless there is good reason for it.
BMW and Toyota obviously didn’t believe that the S6-53 manual gearbox could be modified to be their best option for racing duty as they both run modified variants of the ZF 8HP automatic in their race cars. I agree with their decision when it comes to competitive driving on track as the 8HP appears to be a better fit on track even though the manual gearbox is more fun in a variety of other situations when it comes to street driving.
But this isn’t one of those cases where you should feel bad about buying the automatic or assume it’ll be the slower option. This is an extremely well-designed gearbox that offers a lot of benefits for track driving and is, in my opinion, often more fun to drive fast.
Holy cow – more articles from this dude, please! The design and benefits of the ZF 8-speed were explained in detail but in a way that was easy for me to understand. I’ve definitely been impressed by that gearbox in some cars I’ve driven and now I’m even more impressed.
I also appreciate how the benefits of each transmission are listed without bias. I definitely enjoy a good automatic – the 722.9 in my Mercedes C219 was one of the best transmissions I’ve ever had the pleasure of using – not just among automatics, among all transmissions. I imagine in a car like the Supra, the ZF 8-speed would be even more engaging.
Although if I had the money, I’d spec my Supra with a manual, I definitely agree that there is nothing wrong with choosing the automatic. Modern automatics are so far removed from old 5-speed slushboxes that it’s like trying to compare apples an oranges.
Also, I’ve owned three BMWs with manual transmissions – trust me, you’re gunna want to yank that Clutch Delay Valve (CDV) out of there. Many owners have put combined millions of miles on their BMWs sans CDV with no ill effects. It absolutely transforms the clutch pedal feel by getting rid of the vagueness and that delay that you experienced when shifting quickly. I literally have no idea why it exists – until I found out it could be removed, my E60 just about had me convinced that I forgot how to drive a manual smoothly.
Thanks for the kind words.
Great discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of both transmissions. I have driven a handful of automatics I would own in a sporty oriented car and the ZF 8 is one of them. My problem when the Supra came out was its lack of a manual option, not that there was a problem with the auto. I am not competitive enough to care about the track times and I just love the involvement of shifting myself. It’s just rough out here for manual fans as we see our favorite part of the drive disappearing from the market.
EVs are even faster and no wasted time shifting at all. Who cares about the experience* when you can bore people about how you went around a wiggly circle slightly faster than you could have if you had to manage another control instead of letting the computer do the work for you? If I’m not going to have a manual, I want an EV with no transmission at all (yeah, I get that there’s technically a transmission, but it’s single gear) and then I don’t see the point in dealing with the compromises of a sporting car at aIl (I don’t think I’m alone in this going by the small number of sports cars there are today and how few sell, though there are other factors behind that, of course)—give me a bench seat EV personal coupe that isn’t made to be disposable through forced obsolescent electronics (don’t exist) or else whatever the cheapest POS there is so as to not waste any more money than necessary. Or maybe I could move to one of those small Italian villages they’re practically begging people to buy into and not have a car at all. That actually sounds pretty awesome, though I’m not sure how I’d make any money or be able to stay full time as a non-citizen.
*Not that the “engagement” factor and experience of driving modern cars is all that great even with a manual with reduced-feel hydraulic clutches for ease in traffic and everything else filtered through microprocessors programmed by idiots who then give us fake feel as a substitute because I can only guess they think a fleshlight is the same as a partner and, hey, it gets you off quicker with no need to consider someone else, so it must be better!
30 years ago we scoffed at sports cars with autos because you were giving up not just the engaging driving experience but also acceleration as well as fuel economy. Oh and they usually cost more. So it was all bad all around. Back then manuals typically had more gears too. Fast forward and the tide has turned. Since about 2000 auto trannies increased gear counts like crazy while manuals stagnated generally around 5-6 gears. The automatic is the faster choice, the more economical choice. And in a further turn, usually the less expensive as it has taken the place as the “standard” transmission. I have to grudgingly admit that were it my money on the table, given the choice, I would have to seriously consider the advantages of the modern automatic for my car purchase.
Automatic transmission have really only shot past manuals in the last 10 years or so. Many cars came stock with a 4 or 5 speed automatic or a 5 speed manual in the early 2000s. The first 7 speed automatic showed up in 2003 and didn’t come to mainstream cars until 2010. 8, 9 and 10 speeds weren’t common until 2015 and later.
I think the automatic will still appeal the most for owners that track their cars. It saves you from the pain of money shifts/misshifts that can happen at a track day
I can’t imagine spending $60k on a car and getting the less fun option. Just in general I feel like people spend a lot of money to still settle. I’ve commuted in LA traffic for most of my 23 driving year and never wished I had an automatic.
I feel like most people are willing to compromise so much more than me. I’m the primary ride for my kids and I still put them in my daily driven 2 door sports car. I feel like I spend more time in my car than almost anywhere I go, why would I want it to be anything but exactly what I want.
serious question, where do you draw the line?
so if you’re already getting the automatic for easy driving, why not a crossover or a luxury vehicle? Same with SUVs that don’t actually truck, why don’t you just get a minivan?
For your last question, getting a minivan wouldn’t be compromising, it would be getting the better option.
Well it depends what your priorities are, but yeah thats my point. If I was going to compromise at all I’d just compromise all the way to the best people mover and get a minivan. My personal issue is that I want to be stoked while I’m driving, stoked when I’m walking toward my car, and exercising self control to not check it out when I’m walking away.
Minivans are pretty awesome but I usually prefer to be driven around in one versus driving it myself.
I think that, if you haven’t driven a modern automatic, it’s not fair to dismiss the 8-speed as a “less fun” option. Imho, it’s fun in a different way. Good paddle shifters can be surprisingly fun! It’s one of those things that isn’t obvious until you’ve owned a vehicle with a really good automatic and driven it in all sorts of situations.
I totally get where you’re coming from as I’d want my Supra with a manual too, but I wouldn’t exactly kick a Supra with an auto out of bed.
I drive modern automatics all the time and I hate it, paddle shifters feel more like theater than anything to me. There’s just that feeling of connection that I miss out on. Whenever my car is in for service I start out stoked to drive an x5 loner (and specifically request it), but I get over it so fast and just want my car back. It’s definitely fun in a different way, but the fun times out so fast for me and becomes a drag.
I leased an insight when the second gen first came out and honestly loved it, but I was over the car in a year because it felt more like the car was driving me around than vice versa. I truly believe if it had a manual transmission I’d still have it today.
I think I would kick the auto supra out of bed, the transmission completely took it out of consideration for me, as well as a couple other sports cars I really loved (mostly alfa 4C). I’d rather have my previous car(a battered BRZ I put over 100k miles on) than any automatic.
I guess my point is that I worked hard to get exactly the car I want, and I feel that it was worth it. I just want everyone to get that same feeling from their car, and maybe they can get that with an automatic. Coming from my own personal experiences though, I cant.
Now all they need to do is make it a Toyota 😛
Aisin makes good transmissions too! Now that they offer a 4-cylinder, they should’ve sourced it from Toyota rather than BMW.
A sport roof targa would be nice as well.
I won’t dog on someone for selecting an Automatic.
After years of manual transmissions, I now drive an Automatic – I get it.
But here’s what you should feel bad about:
You could have had a roadster.
I think someone should feel bad about getting an automatic if they think the engagement of driving a manual will be more fun in the long term but they’re scared of learning how to drive a manual transmission car. I suspect that’s a pretty small group of people, though. I think you should feel bad about getting a manual if you’re buying it as your only car and sharing it with someone who isn’t excited about driving a manual, but I suspect that’s an even smaller group.
Noone should feel bad about buying an automatic anything. Not everyone has the skills to properly drive a manual, or spell Manuel correctly. And certainly if you only measure a manual transmission in acceleration a few automatic transmissions can out perform them. However, I never hear comparisons about using a transmission for breaking as opposed to brakes, not breaks, keeping the revolutions up for acceleration as opposed to reducing them for breaking. Why are manual transmissions being ragged on because just 1 aspect of them is finally a millisecond behind and automatic? Perhaps manufacturers want to be free of the manual? But why are the car journalists not covering the whole spectrum?
Why you should feel bad: There are less and less new automobiles with manual transmission being sold in the US, by picking an automatic you’re furthering the extinction of manuals.
BEVs already are faster than all the automatic options on the market, so if you’re buying ICE you’re not buying it for performance, you’re buying it for something else, and almost universally a manual is better at everything ICE wise except for bumper to bumper traffic.
I sucked it up and got the auto for my daily in a 2014 BMW 335ix GT, and I don’t regret it at all. I was sold on the ZF8 long ago and after shopping manuals in Denver for a year before realizing that getting one in the price range and in an interesting color was going to take a flight to NY or LA, the pandemic hit so I expanded the search a bit and got the liftback.
It is nice to paddle through when I want or just leave it in comfort most the time and it just works fine.
The Montero still has a stick. And the Model A is the original 3 speed.
I should buy another Montero.
You find one that will pass emissions, you keep that beast.
“Why in the FUCK should I feel bad for buying something with my own FUCKING money?”
Because I said so!!! You should feel bad for not helping to Save The Manuals!!!
Now go stand in the corner!!!
/jk
“Why You Shouldn’t Feel Bad About Getting An Automatic Toyota Supra”
Counterpoint: Yes you should!
/jk
Am I only 1 of 3 people who can’t respond to notifications?
Yes
Would I personally buy an automatic Supra? No. In my mind in a car that’s that impractical you might as well go all out. Let’s be real here-it’s a toy. That’s not a bad thing at all, I’m sure it’s a hoot and if I had more money I’d love to have one in my driveway solely for weekends, backroads, and an occasional romp on the track. The really isn’t a substitute for a purpose built sportscar.
So, for me personally, I’d rather have engagement than convenience in a toy. However, my daily is another story entirely. I literally NEVER want to daily a manual. I live in DC and sit in some of the worst traffic in the entire country. A manual would be fun for me in a daily maybe 5% of the time, and I agree with the general sentiment here-modern autos rule.
I’ve driven multiple cars with the ZF8 and it’s pretty much perfect. The damn thing is telepathic. Whatever gear you need to be in, it’s in. Every single time. It’s also engaging to drive with the paddles and whatever it’s in is usually ridiculously efficient for what it is. When combined with the God’s own engine the B58 like it is in the Supra the powertrain is more efficient than a lot of 4 cylinders.
I personally think DCTs are the most engaging autos to shift manually, but they’re probably going the way of the dodo outside of specialized applications. Honestly, I think most people who kvetch about automatics haven’t driven the best modern ones. It’s not like you’re making a sacrifice buying something with a DCT, ZF8, GM’s version of the 10 speed, etc.
I also find manual elitists to be one of the most insufferable subgroups of enthusiasts out there. I genuinely don’t care what other people choose to drive. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people prefer automatics. It makes sense. They’re more convenient, they’re more efficient, and they’re usually faster at this point. Get over it.
I think it’s perfectly fine if the manual lives on as a specialized product for performance oriented cars. The only people that want them at this point are enthusiasts. They’re also not DYING, despite the ridiculous hullabaloo surrounding them. Off the top of my head, you can go out today and buy a manual Mazda 3, Miata, Toyobaru, WRX, Elantra N, Civic SI/Type R, GR Corolla, Camaro, Golf R, Supra, Z4, Z, M3, M4, 718, 911, Mustang, Blackwing, Integra Type S, Challenger, and others.
Modern autos are cool as hell and offer superior performance and efficiency. They’re also engineering marvels that are worth admiring and celebrating, and if you haven’t driven any of them you should. If you don’t want one, then drive a manual. There’s room for both. Both are great for different reasons. In a daily give me an auto every time. In a weekend car give me a stick every time.
The ZF 8HP has been no secret to anyone paying attention.
I’m in the very early stages of shopping a potential track car, and prefer a ZF 8HP or a good manual. I’m not looking to compete, I just want a nice toy for some hot laps several times a year.
I haven’t checked to see if those racing modifications to the shift logic are available in the aftermarket. Does anyone know if they are available? For any ZF HP8, or just for certain cars?
Yes, the auto is faster. Yes, it is technically better on track. Yes yes yes
Do you want to date a girl who’s a 9, but vanilla or date a girl who’s an 8, but a freak?
I’d settle for a 7 that exists and is dating me.
An analogy for the preference of manuals over automatics:
“You can climb to the top of Mt Everest or you can have a Sherpa carry you to the top.”
I like the challenge of a manual. I don’t care if it is slower or if it gets worse mileage. And I’ll shift when I want to, not when some engineer has decided the average driver needs to shift.
I like this analogy. I bought a manual Bronco and offroad it a fair amount. I never hear the end about how the auto would be easier offroad. If I wanted easy I wouldn’t be out trying to scale boulders in the first place, the added difficulty just enhances the experience.
I have a ZF 8HP in my Defender and it is a wonderful automatic transmission. Would I rather have this over a manual? Not in a million years. #savethemanuals.
I’ve been very impressed 8HP’s in both my current Jag F Type and the Jag XE I had before it. Only small gripe has always been the cars can sometimes feel a bit lethargic off the line unless the gearbox is in sport mode. I believe this is because Jaguar have calibrated the gearbox to launch in 2nd gear in standard driving modes. Not sure if the Supra has a similar calibration?
The interesting bit that I’ve learned form Supra owners is that in that application most will start from 2nd if they go to the drag strip as it’s the best combo of acceleration and building boost.
in a similar vein the auto in the new Nissan Z is way better than a manual, faster more fuel efficent and easier.
But I got a Manual anyhow as it’s more “fun”.
you don’t by sports cars based on logic.
Is there any car left where the automatic is actually the slower option?
Almost all the rational reasons for getting a manual are gone, as automatics are generally faster and more efficient. The reason to get a manual in 2024 is that you want the connection/involvement/control/fun that you get from the experience.
Yeah, automatics have been faster (and more fuel efficient) for probably 15 years now. The fact the writer thinks this is news in mind-blowing.
Closer to five years than 15. I don’t know where people get the idea that 2009 automatic transmissions were excellent. In general, it’s really easy to tell if an automatic will be more efficient than the manual option, because that never happens unless the auto has more gears.
Anyways, the Miata still comes with a 6spd auto that is rather old and probably measurably slower than the manual.
Dual-clutch automatics were an option 15 years ago, but few and far between. The best measure is probably when the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger became faster with the auto than the manual.
The ZF 8 speed launched in 2009 (or ’08 or ’10, depending on which site you believe).
I believe the Miata is the last one. Although in real world driving I find manuals to still be more fuel efficient because the EPA testing is flawed.
This is a refreshingly honest take- Modern automatics can be absurdly good at what they do. The days when buying an auto in a performance car meant it would have the same shift behavior as your grandma’s Buick are over. I for one will not vote for you to get the internet firing squad, Bozi.
I am a huge proponent of manual gearboxes and have owned many cars equipped with them but believe that it’s best to show appreciation when someone builds and tunes a great automatic gearbox.
Haha, just read an article at Autoblog pleading to get the manual Supra and now I’m being convinced to get the automatic. Guess I’ll get neither lol
That’s the fun thing about all of us having different experiences. You can find a case for the manual gearbox on this very site from Parker written just a week ago. There is no right or wrong answer, just information to help you learn more about the car.
https://www.theautopian.com/a-45th-anniversary-toyota-supra-by-any-other-name-would-be-sweeter/
The ZF8 is God-tier automatic. Both my cars have it and when properly launched and AMAX shifting takes over, it’s like getting punched. The first time I experienced this at the dragstrip my helmeted head went flying into the headrest like someone reached through the sunroof and shoved me on the 1-2, and I chirped all four tires on a prepped surface. They’re stupid strong and a proper TCU tune only makes them better. The fact that it responds so quickly means it’s actually fun to use the flappy paddles on occasion. Both mine are coming due for a fluid/filter service. I’ll do that and go right back to not worrying about my transmission at all, because they’re that reliable.
Below stolen from an Audi forum. I wonder if the one in the Supra does this.
That’s a cool explanation. I was not previously familiar with the “AMAX” terminology but can see how the clutch arrangement in the 8HP could allow for that with proper programming.
That transmission filter arrangement on 8HP is a little odd with it being integrated into the pan but at least the pan/filter combos are reasonably priced in most cases.
Yeah, it’s a hoot. https://youtu.be/HsqZ9v396Ug?si=-OaP5pL2AbpBsjJV
Looks like a bunch of fun.
Do the Z4/Supra manuals still use the clutch delay valve (CDV)? Because that could be why the clutch pedal behaves the way it does, easy enough to fix though.
It does have a CDV. I touched on it briefly in the last few paragraphs.
I replaced the factory one with a drilled out one my 128i, made a huge difference. And as far as I could learn from research, BMW just has them there in an effort to smooth out the shifts for those who don’t know how to themselves and that was to prevent undue shock to the clutch on hard launches.
Have you had any occasions where it’s been harsh since you modified it?
Zero and I owned it from 2015-2019 and put around 40k miles on it along with autocrossing it. The only complaints I had with the transmission were the 1-2 shift grind when slightly turning, but that’s a very common BMW annoyance and has more to do with the transmission and shifter mounts than the clutch delay valve.